ST How powerful was Luke in the ST?

He didn't have his head on straight but had he been eager to intervene in the ST how powerful do you think Luke was at that point in time?

 

He isn't written as if he's powerful. The writing of TLJ makes it seem as if both Kylo and Rey are stronger than him, although you can argue that his heart wasn't in either confrontation. Snoke is shown to be stronger than Rey and Kylo, so I would assume he's stronger than Luke too. I would say he has equal ability to Leia although he possesses more knowledge on the force. In the comic he easily beat the knights of Ren so there's that.

Overall I would say he is supposed to have above average ability, but that means little since everyone else is stronger in the setting making him one of the weaker force users in the story. There isn't any implication that he would have made a difference if he had intervened, in fact he implies that the idea is laughable.

 

Pretty sad fate for someone with such a bright and promising future at the end of ROTJ, huh?

 

I think Luke's ending is a let down, but I don't think his power is as important as his characterization. I do think there's an interesting contrast between how Luke and Vader are portrayed though. Technically Luke beat Vader in a fair fight, but now Luke's power is fairly mundane, whereas Vader has almost godlike power in titles like Fallen Order. I'm not really sure Luke could have beaten Vader in the current canon, at the very least their fight would have looked like something out of Dragon Ball Z.

 

No idea what makes you think that.

Nothing in TLJ writes him as if he isn't powerful, or suggests that Kylo Ren or Rey are stronger than him. If anything, the movie shows the exact opposite. He has no issues toying with Rey, until she opts for the lightsaber, at which point his choices come down to backing down or actually hurting her, and he has no interest in doing the latter. He also has no trouble evading each and everyone of Kylo Ren's attacks, even though he is actually lightyears away. He isn't there to actually beat him, he is there to keep him away from the resistance, and to put doubt into his mind.

He also doesn't imply that an intervention by him wouldn't make a difference. He makes a joke about Rey expecting him to go out there and take on the entire first order on his own, because people have a warped view of what a legend can do, and that is perfectly on point, because that has never been what a force-users does at any point in the saga. Only this time he actually kind of ends up doing just that in what is basically the most impressive show of skill in the entire saga, at least until Palpatine uses his lightning against an entire fleet in TROS.

I also have little idea what makes you think that Luke's powers are now "fairly mundane", or that Vader supposedly has "godlike powers" now, or that the fight would look like something out of Dragon Ball Z. Literally none of that is supported in any way by the movies. Luke did much more powerful stuff in the ST than in the OT, Vader hasn't been shown to do anything beyond slaughtering a bunch of foot-soldiers who had no chance against him, hardly something that suggests that he has godlike powers. And the fights are very much in line with those from the past, if anything, they are a bit less flashy than those from the PT.


Luke's main problem is that his mind isn't into it in the early going, but that changes at the end of the movie. And from an outside perspective, he isn't supposed to be the one who saves the day, because that is what the new heroes are for. He's a master/mentor figure now, not the main character. If anything, TLJ made him more impactful than Obi Wan or Yoda in the OT, who were mainly around to nudge the hero in the right direction without actually getting involved.
There's a reason why Michael Arndt had trouble putting him in TFA, because having him as almost all-powerful master takes away any urgency, and pushes the heroes down a level, which is the exact opposite of what you are supposed to accomplish with a new set of heroes.

 

Luke says regarding Rey's power: "I've seen this raw strength only once before. In Ben Solo. It didn't scare me enough then, it does now." This doesn't seem like the sort of statement that you'd make about someone of equal or lesser strength. He regarded Kylo as someone volatile that could grow beyond his control to the point that he controversially considered killing him in his sleep. That would be weird if Kylo was just the first equal Luke had encountered. I already mentioned that Luke's heart wasn't in either confrontation.

I know you won't agree, but I don't think force projection is that impressive. All it does is stall Kylo for five minutes before killing Luke. In RoS Rey defeats Palpatine in single combat (something even Yoda couldn't do) and Kylo raises the dead. They come across as more powerful than Luke.

Regarding Vader the example I gave was Fallen Order which is canon. I didn't have an issue with Rogue One which is why I didn't mention it.

 

Interesting question.

Compared to Legends EU Luke, who is a memetic powerhouse, Disney Luke is decidedly unimpressive. Fans who give TLJ a cursory glance probably won't find much by way of Luke ****, especially compared to Snoke or Rey-at-the-end-of-the-movie, who lifts what looks like a few metric tons of rubble to free the Resistance.

That said, there are some interesting observations about Luke in TLJ if you squint:

• Despite having been disconnected from the Force for years, Luke's interruption of the Reylo Force Skype call causes Rey's hut to explode as if detonated by a bomb
• When Rey attacks Luke, Luke is clearly the more masterful fighter, outmaneuvering and disarming her despite her attacking him in anger
• When Snoke learns of Luke's location, he resolves to destroy him... from orbit with a First Order fleet ("we'll go there and obliterate the entire island") instead of confronting him directly or sending Kylo
• When Luke seems to appear on Crait, Kylo - who impetuously throws himself at Rey, the Praetorian Guard, and even Snoke - fearfully orders the First Order task force to bombard Luke

So despite blatant feats of wankery, there are important signs that Luke's dreaded reputation among even Kylo and Snoke is deserved. The only person who I think we can say without reservation is decisively superior to Luke in the sequels is the Emperor (which is confirmed in the TROS novelization; when he confronts Sidious on Exegol, Kylo muses he senses in Sidious's decrepit clone body power greater than any he's ever sensed), though I'm sure credible arguments can be made for TROS Rey, TROS Kylo, and Snoke.

 

I think people compare Luke to the dyad because their powers seem similar but they totally aren't:

Force Projection: a projector and projector ALONE remains on one planet while projecting his image, that he can manipulate to look nothing like his current self, across the space and time to another planet. The effort kills but it's still something that cannot be done by just anyone. So extremely high level of power.

Spoiler

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Real Luke vs Projected Luke

The Dyad Force Bond - 2 strong Force Users have a bond that allows them to share space and time and pass objects between them through the Force. Unlike Force projection that doesn't require a Force mate, a dyad mate cannot perform their powers alone or with anyone other than the other dyad mate. One dyad mate on one planet can appear simultaneously on the planet of their dyad mate and vice versa but not on planets where dyad mates aren't. Unlike Force Projector who can send projection anywhere. However, the dyad are not projections, they literally can be in 2 places at once which is why they don't feel exhaustion while going bonded.

Spoiler

I would say that both powers are high level and have their advantages and limitations. Projections limitation is obviously being a one-off. Dyad's limitation is obviously being confined to the dyad. So I wouldn't say Reylo was more powerful. It's simply a different power.

 

What the ST seems to be telling us is that, whilst Luke may have a couple of tricks up his sleeve, both Rey and Leia are much more powerful, in life, than Luke... which I'm not sure is something George Lucas would have subscribed to in his version of the sequels. And even now, with some distance, I'm not sure what purpose it served to show Luke looking so abject in comparison to Rey and Leia. Overall, making Luke seem much weaker, both in his physical abilities as a Jedi and in his philosophical/intellectual strength as a Jedi, undermined the overall narrative of the ST (IMHO).

 

Rey and Leia, tells you all you need to know about the idea agenda behind it.

 

The problem is they keep having Luke get bested to show how strong someone else is. All he does is get beaten in the ST. They were so worried that he'd overshadow everyone else that they made the opposite happen.

 

There are more impressive feats attributable to Rey in the ST than Luke, but that owes partially to the fact that Rey is the protagonist in all three films whereas Luke is a supporting character in one.

Where is Leia shown to be much more powerful than Luke?

 

he still overshadowed strong women that bested him. Because he's an actual character and that wins in the end. Rey is barely a character while her superior mentor Zombie Footage Leia and best lightsaber wielder CGI Young Leia are a joke that nobody asked for nor needed.

 

I think that's true to an extent, but the end result is still that Luke is completely marginalized within the saga. His lasting impact is one last inspirational act that doesn't seem to have changed anything. Also I was talking about Kylo too, not just the women.

 

Kylo didn't best him. If anything, Luke played with him. Women absolutely bested him because of the message not because they could have realistically.

Luke's act at the end of the movie haven't changed anything because TROS didn't want to change anything. TLJ ended with Luke's act inspiring the kids which was metaphorical way of saying buy more ATAT and action figure toys that he inspired people across the galaxy. TROS had Lando arrive with the cavalry. They didn't show up due to Luke's inspiration. They didn't show up because Leia sent the plea for help. They showed up with Lando because reasons.

 

But I think that's an inherent flaw in how the sequels were written. For example, within the context of the OT, Luke is never positioned as ever being more powerful than Obi-Wan or Yoda. The writing in the OT is always cognisant of the order of things, whereas Rey is given rather ridiculous abilities (IMHO) because that's the easy route to show she's 'better'. The net result is that it diminishes the internal logic of the films, with Rey never really seeming to need training.

I think Leia being able to survive in the vacuum of space, and effectively fly through it, seems to be a skill greater than Luke shows . Also, the flashback in TROS makes it seem like Leia can easily best Luke in a duel. Do any of us really believe it served the story well, or the characters, to show Leia beating Luke to the point he's on his back in the dirt?

 

No, it absolutely didn't serve the story well because it had nothing to do with the story. It was all about soap-boxing.

 

Kylo knocked Luke unconscious during the flashback. That seems like a victory to me. You can argue he was holding back then, but you can say say the same about Rey and Leia. With Rey he didn't even have a proper weapon.

It doesn't really matter which movie is at fault. The end result is that he dies without lasting impact on the galaxy.

 

It isn't a victory at all nor it was played that way. Kylo sees Luke with the lightsaber and brings the ceiling down on him with the Force. At that moment, Luke was more preoccupied with that Ben misunderstood what happened than with defending himself. It wasn't meant to be presented as Luke's weakness and Kylo's power but grave misunderstanding that changed the course of the future.

OTOH, the Leia scene is 100% she is better than Luke full stop. There's no other context. Unlike Luke/Ben scene that has a dramatic context that isn't about besting. Leia and Luke scene is absolutely about besting, hence why Leia is shown to be a better teacher to Rey (they clicked while Rey and Luke did not).

Rey besting Luke is less about Luke and more about solidifying that Rey is the most powerful Force User. That's what LFL wanted since TFA and they continued that way. I'd say that the moment where she really bests Luke isn't even their duel but when her lifting 100s of rocks is juxtaposed to his dismissive "lifting rocks" and then his meditation. Rey didn't need meditation to lift those boulders as if they were made of foam (well, they certainly looked lightweight due to crap CGI but that's not the point). The context is without any mistake that she is the most powerful which also means more than Luke.

OTOH, Luke's projection that fools Kylo is 100% Luke's victory cause Kylo couldn't notice right away what was going on. So big victory for Luke there.

 

While I wholeheartedly agree that every Star Wars protagonist should be an underdog who must constantly experience setbacks and subsequently improve and insufficient attention was paid to Rey in this respect, I disagree with your interpretation that Rey "comes off better" than Luke simply because she demonstrates more impressive feats than Luke does in the sequels.

It'd be like comparing Darth Maul to Darth Sidious in TPM; Maul demonstrates impressive feats throughout the film whereas Sidious doesn't at all. Yet we'd never make the claim that Maul is or even seems more powerful than Sidious. Maul's role in the story had him involved in the action and afforded him more opportunity to flex his muscles, so to speak, whereas Sidious's didn't. Likewise, with Rey and Luke, Luke is relegated to an advisory role that minimized his opportunity to demonstrate Force power.

Also, as a reminder, when Rey attacked Luke in anger, Luke pretty casually fends her off and disarms her with a makeshift weapon.

This is inaccurate, respectfully. Leia never demonstrates something Luke is shown or said to be incapable of; Leia simply does something we don't see Luke do because of plot circumstances. Like, I'd agree with you if Luke had been in a similar situation and was unable to replicate her feat, but that never happened.

Leia vs. Luke in the flashbacks was clearly a sparring session between teacher and pupil. In martial arts, students are able to gain the advantage of more skilled masters all the time in training as a mock demonstration.

Moreover, Leia is effectively helpless at the Battle of Crait and resigned to oblivion before Luke's projection manifests and he singlehandedly saves the day. Broom Boy, at the end of TLJ, is playing with a makeshift action figure of Luke Skywalker and is inspired by Luke Skywalker, not Rey and not Leia.

I understand why fans might be dismayed at Luke not being afforded the opportunity to flex his Force muscles in a way that we see in Legends EU, but I don't think the examples that have been cited of his "inferiority" are really applicable.

Sorry for butchering the formatting!

 

I agree that Rey is made to be the strongest force user in the ST, but Kylo is still implied to be stronger than Luke. That's the whole point of their conflict. Luke is afraid of his power, he says Rey is the only one like Kylo he's ever seen.

It's hard for me to see force projection as a victory for Luke either. At the end of the day Kylo rules the galaxy and Luke is dead which was Kylo's objective for the the first two movies. Either way, force projection was a trick not a contest of strength (I have no problem with the notion that Luke is smarter than Kylo.) The closest thing to a contest of strength ended with Luke unconscious even if his head wasn't in the game.

 

You can interpret Luke and Kylo scenes or dynamic as Weaker Luke if you squint. However, in case of Rey and Leia, there's no question that the idea is to show the ladies are stronger.

 

Depends on how you define "powerful".

 

He was powerful enough to abandon all of his friends and then show up for a too-little-too-late skype battle.

 

Given that his greatest power was always in overcoming himself (including in TLJ), I'd say he was pretty dang powerful. And never mind his defeat of Darth Vader. Or his ability to reach the heart of his father, who overcame Palpatine (temporarily, as it turns out). That's also pretty powerful. Oh, and that soundtrack as he's walking out alone to face the First Order? Kind of turned Vader's theme into something heroic and more bad-ass than bad-guy. That's a good signal that he's pretty darn powerful. And Force projection ... I could go on, but I think Luke is extremely powerful.