PT How was Anakin safe from Order 66?

“The Emperor knew as I did, if Anakin were to have any offsprings…they would be a threat to him.”

Again….really any Jedi??? You do know that 2 of the most powerful Jedi still lives by ANH?? Yet Sidious was never worrying about them saying theres a great disturbance in the Force.

“He’s just a boy, Obi-Wan can no longer help him.”

Ummm Master we should concentrate more on hunting Yoda.

Sidious wants to exterminate all Jedi for the Sith’s revenge but he was never once worried until Luke’s arrival.

There were Force Users around the galaxy but yet Obi-Wan and Yoda centered all their hope to two babies.

“That boy was our only hope.”
“No there is another.”

Obi-Wan and Yoda were the two most powerful Jedi alive YET they hid and waited for Anakin’s offsprings to take on the fight.

So how can you say just any Jedi or Force User when obviously the last 2 Jedi didn’t even bother to fight the Sith putting all hopes to 2 babies.

Yoda by ESB was obviously still more powerful than Luke…yet it was Luke who Sidious feared and got all bent out of shape with and NOT Yoda.

Yoda the most powerful Jedi telling Luke he must complete his training before facing the Sith. Yet Yoda, who is better trained than Luke at that time wasn’t even planning to face the Sith.

If it was just any Jedi then Obi-Wan would have said this instead.

“The Emperor knew as I did…if any more Force Users exist they would be a threat to him.”

No. He specifically said Anakin’s offspring.

And for the Matrix. You were quoting the second Matrix where the writers decided to scrap the One.

The first movie obviously was intended to have a prophecy. And that’s why the first movie was regarded a classic while the others are dismissed.

 

I can understand Sidious being uncomfortable with any remnant of the Jedi tradition surviving, and IMO it's much more in character for him to be a completionist concerning wiping them out than being indifferent to a bunch of light siders running around stirring trouble.
The reality is that even if any given Jedi isn't a direct threat to him, they carry forth a teaching that *is* a threat.
If he knew where Obi-Wan and Yoda were I'm sure he would have sent half his army to kill them as necessary. Because even if they can't beat him one on one, they can train a new generation that *could* be a threat. And they did.

The Dark Lord who masterminded the Jedi's fall is not naïve enough to assume that any number of surviving Jedi will just happily sit back and fade into the night while darkness falls across the galaxy. Even if they don't fight him out in the open, they are plotting his end in whatever way they can manage, just as the Sith did over a thousand years in their place. *Any* survivors are a threat, if not today than tomorrow, if not tomorrow in a week, or month, or year, or decade, century, millenia, etc.

Though for the record I 100% agree with you that he is far more afraid of Anakin's children than he would be of any of a handful of survivors of the purge. The survivors are a potential threat, the children of the chosen one are a direct threat.

 

They believe that Yoda is dead and by the time of "Rebels", Palpatine believes that Obi-Wan is dead. Vader believed otherwise. It wasn't just Anakin's children. He's worried about Luke now because Anakin had a child that lived and was learning the Jedi Arts.

The Wachowskis didn't change the story. That was the story after the first draft. And fans disliked the sequels because of the over reliance of philosophical dialogue and the ending which was actually planned out in the beginning. That Neo was not the One and that the humans and the machines needed each other in order to survive. In fact, the dialogue at the end of the first film gave this away, before it was cut. Not to mention that Neo's abilities were from the Matrix and the Oracle was a machine that was betraying her fellow machines.

The fact is that Neo subverted the prophecy by saving Trinity instead of sacrificing Zion. Then he ended the war by striking a deal and balanced the equation, thus becoming the One.

 

“The Emperor knew as I did. If Anakin were to have any offsprings they would be a threat to him.”

You do notice that he didn’t say HIMSELF nor Yoda was a threat at all.

2 Jedi in their primes after ROTS didn’t say let’s regroup and try to gather and train other Force Sensitive beings so one day we can destroy the Sith.

No ….they consciously stayed out of the fight to wait for Anakin’s children to grow so they can train them.

“That boy was our last hope.”
“No there is another.”

Decades of hiding and all they have is to depend on 2 babies.

So obviously even the Jedi believed that it’s not just “any Jedi” that will stop the Dark Side.

Or they would have done it themselves or at least look to train other Force sensitives.

“Luke you do not yet realize your IMPORTANCE.”

“You can DESTROY The Emperor!! He has FORESEEN this.”


And for the Matrix…it was meant as a stand alone film. But was green lit for a trilogy because of the first film’s success.

So yeah they can retconned on what they believe what happened.

That’s why people were shocked that all of a sudden we are getting a sequel to an already Masterpiece of a movie.

Then got disappointed afterwards and thought they should have left that Classic alone.

So yeah they can RETROACTIVELY SAY THAT originally it’s not a prophecy type movie but that first movie obviously was. Even Neo is an anagram of One.

But then they tried being cute and be different and started to subvert that idea. But ultimately it was still Neo that saved them.

And you don’t write a scene where the whole movie is based on prophecy of the One and then having Neo saved by DUMB LUCK from Cypher. They don’t write characters on that position unless it’s a movie about chance or a prophecy thing.


That scene was obviously about ….there’s something special about Neo. And not some random luck that the writer made a mistake with because they have no other way to save a character at that moment.

 

None of those prove that Sidious gives consideration to the prophecy. The Skywalker bloodline is ultra Force sensitive so of course he should pay careful attention to them. You don't need to believe a prophecy to consider a potential powerful enemy as a threat.

Either way (whether Sidious considers the prophecy real or bogus), the way Sidious dealt with Luke in the OT makes no sense. If he believes in the prophecy, then he shouldn't be so worried about Luke in ESB because Luke is *not* the one prophesied to destroy the Sith. If he doesn't believe in the prophecy, then he should be equally careful of Luke in OT as he was of Anakin back in the PT, so he shouldn't do such sloppy planning in ROTJ. I refuse to believe that overconfidence alone is enough to make the same guy from the PT come up with such a garbage plan to convert Luke. His cognitive function must have been compromised in some way; if it's not the Force wrecking his brain cells then it's general cognitive decline with old age.

But either way (whether it's overconfidence or cognitive issues in ROTJ), it wouldn't apply to the ROTS situation if Anakin refused to turn. Sidious was a strategic mastermind at that time and he has no reason to be overconfident if he had just failed to turn Anakin. There would have to be a different excuse if Anakin were to magically defeat Sidious.

 

So you are saying Palpatine was obsessed with Anakin in the PT and cautious of Luke in the CT is because he knows that the Skywalker blood line has the potential to be the most powerful Force User and Not because of a prophecy??? Correct??
I can buy that.

And you believe that GL has put that prophecy in the series as just a misdirect or just open to interpretation even though it actually did what it was supposed to do in the first place??

Now for the hypothetical question: If somehow Palpatine didn’t plan Anakin’s turn all the way BACK in AOTC and he faced Anakin in ROTS …you’d say Sidious would wipe the floor with Anakin right??

To me even though Anakin was less powerful and not as trained….but was doing the right thing as a true Jedi defending instead of attacking…unfortunately for me as a Sidious fan…somehow The Force will boost Anakin to his full potential like what happened with Rey versus Palpatine in TROS.

But just like Rey and Vader in ROTJ…Anakin will also die in ROTS in killing the Dark Lord but saving the Republic and the Jedi Order.

Is that outcome really hard to believe??

 

The way I handle the prophecy is to make it essentially self-fulfilling. In the movies (by which I mean the first 6) when is it ever argued by a Jedi that acting on a dream or a vision is a good thing? When does a Jedi ever say, 'oh, you should definitely go and act on that dream you had'. Further, when is it ever shown that doing so builds positive outcomes? Luke acts on his visions of his friends in pain - and ends up nearly losing his life and requires rescuing by them. Anakin goes to Tatooine - he doesn't save his mother and instead ends up slaughtering a whole tribe of Tuskens, including women and children (potentially destroying any evidence of foul play in the process - see the unused lines from the original Dooku/Anakin fight from early ROTS draft). And at the end of ROTS, by acting on his fears brought about by his dreams of Padmé dying in child birth he actually brings about that very outcome.

Always in motion, the future is.

So in my head canon, Qui-Gon Jinn is an unwitting agent of the darkside. There is a lot of pride in Qui-Gon, an aspect of his character I believe was developed by and under Dooku. And he is driven by a prophecy. All that a prophecy is, is a dream or vision that has been written down. He even uses emotional blackmail against his padawan - knowing he won't be able to refuse him - putting his place in the Jedi Order under risk, because he is so convinced by this vision. Obi-Wan even says that the rest of the Council can sense the danger in Anakin, why can't he? Because his focus determines his reality, he is centring on his anxieties - on a vision which he sees as a reality now because of the seeming return of the Sith (they must actually have always been there).

This is then reflected within the Council. Where previously the Council refused to train Anakin, now with the 'return' of the Sith they see the dark times of the prophecy as being upon them and their focus is upon this 'reality'. That is why in AOTC their powers are clouded, reduced. They are blinding themselves by their focus on the prophecy.

 

I disagree with what you're saying here.

Qui-Gon I do think is a flawed man and has a pride (I've been piecing together an Obi-Wan show redo that plays on the idea of failure between teacher and student and how for Obi Qui was a very solid teacher but he placed a pressure on Obi by making him promise to teach Anakin, a pressure which echoed through his strictness on Anakin, and one rooted from Qui-Gon in his idea that he'd been given the responsibility to ensure the galaxy was secured, which was a trickle down effect from Dooku's drive and pride), but I don't view Anakin as being needed for the fall of the jedi. I think that was set to go off by Palpatine before Anakin entered the picture and would've anyway. Details may have been different, but the sith were absolutely still active and still operating and had Palpatine was the magnum opus of it all. Anakin wasn't needed to make it happen. He was a tool by Palpatine.

Honestly, if the jedi had turned Qui down and never reconsidered I think Palpatine may have found a way to snatch Anakin up after the events of TPM somehow.

 

I didn't say that Anakin was required for the fall of the Jedi - except in as much as their focus on the prophecy is part of what blinded them - "Your focus determines your reality".

And, to your last point, the only reason Anakin has come to the attention of Palpatine is because Qui-Gon insisted on taking him to train as a Jedi and then into a war zone.

 

But I don't think the jedi are ever particularly focused on that. They acknowledge it and Mace places it as a reasoning for trusting Anakin in AOTC, but I think it's played as more a casual one. For instance, I'd say their personal arrogance, attachment to the senate, engagement in war is more blinding them. I think that does more to lead them to be manipulated by Palpatine.

I wasn't referring to in general. I was speaking more on the situation as presented in TPM in Anakin already having come to coruscant, yes that may have been what caught attention initially to Anakin. But I don't think Anakin was needed for the destruction of the jedi.

 

This is the only possibility that makes total sense to me in this page. This looks a solid proof

 

Worth pointing out: In TCW when Tup's chip fires prematurely he never goes trigger happy on Anakin, only when he see's Tiplee and Tiplar does he feel the need to kill Jedi.

 

Yes. Nothing in the show indicates that Sidious believes that Anakin was destined to destroy the Sith. If he did, the first thing he said to Anakin after Anakin attacked Mace should have been "You have overcome your original cursed destiny" and not "You are fulfilling your destiny."

Well I can't speak for what GL's intentions were, but the way things turned out it certainly looks like a misdirect, or at least can be interpreted as such.

If there was any chance of killing Sidious, Anakin would've already tried it after Sidious said "To cheat death is a power only one has achieved." By then Anakin knows that Sidious is an evil liar who apparently doesn't even know how to save Padme. Anakin is consistently shown throughout the PT to be short tempered, impulsive, and a huge risk taker, yet he falls to his knees WHILE Sidious is saying that. The situation was hopeless for Anakin.

 

There may be a chance, but not one that would risk Anakin's own life I think, which is why I think he waits so long as Vader to try a coup in trying to get Luke to help. But I also think Anakin's hesitancy in attacking Palpatine is also down to the fact Palpatine still is the one with the closest chance to help him prevent Padme's death and attacking him could endanger that. Palpatine basically puts Anakin on a leash in that moment, by basically saying that it can be done if you and I work together.

 

If Anakin felt he had any control of the situation, he should at least have *some* kind of reaction (even if it's not an actual attack, he can still express anger through words/body language/facial expression) to Sidious's words before deciding if it's worthwhile siding with Sidious. But no, he is not in a position to talk to Sidious like an equal human being. Anakin looked completely resigned to his fate, falling to his knees in unconditional surrender. His face when Sidious so much as started walking towards him says it all. Despite all the dangerous situations he has been through, we have never seen him this terrified before.

 

I think he does. Right after Palpatine says "to cheat death is a power only one has achieved" I think Anakin gives a look of resentment of sorts.

 

This!!

I didn’t really watch The Clone Wars I’m just going by what people told me. So if what consevativeJedi says is what happened then looks like Palpatine already pre program the Clones about Anakin since the beginning.

You know I loved everything you just said.

I know by ROTS, Palpatine has already set everything in motion. But I was going by a different Anakin hypothetically ..the one he didn’t groom since after TPM. The one he didn’t rekindle his love for Padme in AOTC. I’m saying without his manipulation…of showing he’s a kind old man..how would Palpatine fair against the true Jedi Anakin without attachments??

And can you explain how in the hell Rey Palpatine easily destroyed her grandpa at the end and why you think Anakin can’t do the same thing??

 

Technically Palpatine destroyed himself, because all Rey did was deflect his own lightning back at him. Rey just stood there and used the 2 lightsabers to do it.

 

I'd say he gets a pretty good view of Anakin.

 

Yup and I think in a hypothetical scene where Palpatine didn’t staged Anakin’s downfall…the true Jedi Anakin without attachments fighting the Dark Lord to save the galaxy….can also do that to Palpatine. He will die as well along with Palpatine like Rey did.

 

Except Anakin doesn't sense that Palpatine is lying to him. At any point in time. Nor does he outright lie. He just tells him that he is the only one who can teach him the dark side, just as he does with Luke when he vows to complete his training.

 

"I have the power to save the one you love. You must choose"

vs

"To cheat death is a power only one has achieved, but in time I know we can discover the secret"

Which can be summarised as

"actually I don't have the power to save the one you love, we'll have to work together to find it"

 

He didn't. The order needs to be given by Sidious to begin with. He simply didn't give it to Anakin's clones.

He gets a view of the whole room, but when it triggers again, he's not looking at Anakin. He's looking at the other Jedi. The scene is pretty explicit.

 

Palpatine never says he has the power to cheat death. He says the power of the Dark Side is the only way to achieve it and that, only through his knowledge of the Dark Side, Anakin will be able to learn how to save Padmé. And when he says "I have the power to save the one you love" what he actually mean is he has the power of the Dark Side which is the key to unlock the secret of immortallity for the Sith. Palpatine just sells Anakin a Sith legend trying to make sure he believes it to be true, regardless of whether or not is actually true.


- ANAKIN: How do you know the ways of the Force?

- PALPATINE: My mentor taught me everything about the Force... even the nature of the Dark Side.

- ANAKIN: You know the dark side?!?

---------------

- PALPATINE: Only through me can you achieve a power greater than any Jedi. Learn to know the dark side of the Force, Anakin, and you will be able to save your wife from certain death.

- ANAKIN: What did you say?

- PALPATINE: use my knowledge, I beg you ...

---------------

- ANAKIN: I will quickly discover the truth of all this.

- PALPATINE: You have great wisdom, Anakin. Know the power of the dark side. The power to save Padme.

 

That's correct. The misconception comes from "unfortunately, he taught his apprentice everything he knew".