ST Hyperspace Use In The ST

Planetary orbit yes, or near a planet where they can see it. I'd like to point out that in the CT, we only see ships come out of hyperspace once. They were pretty far from the sanctuary moon when that happened. The millenium falcon never jumped without getting about a planetary diameter away from the body it was leaving. Similarly we see ships exiting hyperspace at a distance where the planet is a large object in view, and that's actually what we see in The Last Jedi as well. It's the normal way to travel.

 

"Flying through Hyperspace ain't like dusting crops, boy..."

Han makes it pretty clear in ANH that Hyperspace travel isn't easy. He specifically mentions proximity problems with stars and supernovas so the idea that real space doesn't affect Hyperspace is debunked in the very first Star Wars movie. The whole reason Han gives that speech is because Luke is emphasising the need to get away from the Star Destroyers and Han, as good as he is, still needs to get precise coordinates from the navicomputer to avoid any obstacles along the way.

"Solo" retcons the Falcon as having the "ultimate" navicomputer but even with that, it still takes "a few moments" to get the right coordinates. Things like Hyperspace skipping, jumping to lightspeed inside a hangar or in atmosphere or coming out of Hyperspace beyond a planetary shield are simply inconsistent with what we know about Hyperspace travel and they exist in the sequels, not because they make any sense but because Abrams thought it would be cool.

Then we have the "Holdo Manoeuvre" that seems consistent with ANH's hyperspace rules in terms of the potential for disaster but is such an OP move that it renders every space battle utterly meaningless when such a thing is possible. TROS makes the claim that it's a one in a million shot which is kind of ludicrous given the effect Holdo's Hyperspace jump had on more than one ship.

The assumption I always had about Hyperspace was that it was essentially a compressed version of real space, that anything outside Hyperspace wasn't affected by objects in Hyperspace but that the objects in Hyperspace could be affected by things in normal space. I think that was essentially the EU approach in that it wasn't the planets or stars themselves that could affect things but their gravitational fields.

Ultimately, Star Wars is fantasy, not science fiction but I think there's a tendency to use that distinction as an excuse. It doesn't matter what kind of world your story takes place in, that world has to have rules. There needs to be an internal logic to the universe the story is taking place in. Take magic in Harry Potter or Lord Of The Rings for example. There are certain rules that need to be followed, certain spells and incantations. We don't necessarily need to know why a person needs to say certain words in a certain order while waving a wand in order to create a magical effect, we just need to know that the ritual is required. The same is true of Star Wars. We don't need to know why there's sound in space or how exactly Hyperspace works but there does need to be a consistency. Rules need to exist within the world, regardless of whether or not the viewer has access to the rules or whether or not the creator has fleshed them out.

The Force can't be "well you can do what you like and we'll say it's the Force as an excuse." It's the same with Hyperspace.

 

But nothing is said about jumping while still in atomsphere.

Good catch, I had forgeten that the Falcon is "special" in this regard.

As has been stated, hyperspace in-atmo predates not only the ST, but the Disney buyout as well.

As for the shield, why would a deflector shield block something traveling through hyperspace? And all hyperspace skipping is just cycaling through pre-set coordinates in rapid order - it's dipicted as insane and not safe, and actually sinks up well with what we know about needing to make persisce caculations becuse it shows (in part) what can happen if you don't.

No more then the fact that you can ram IRL ships into each other negates every naval battle.

Holdo was ramming a very large, stationary object that was sitting right in front of her. It would still be "one in a million" if you were trying to hit a small, constently moving target, let alone trying to luanch a ship through hyperspace and deliberatly hit anouther ship that was moving through realspace.

And all of the ship's Holdo hit were in her direct path.

There is.

Peaple seem to be confusing "it's never been shown before" and "the EU said it was'nt possible" with "it can't be done" and "the films say its not possible"

Lucas certinly felt in-atmo jumps were okay, since he did'nt stop them from showing one in TCW.

 

I did state plainly that the falcon's speed is what han was bragging about.

This is'nt the Ghost, with super-special stealth tech, or the Scimitar with her cloaking device, the Falcon has...a really fast engine.

She's not the USS Defiant, she's the USS Enterprise at the start of Star Trek III.

I honestly don't know what this has to do with my pointing out the fact that han bragged about the falcon's speed.

"fast ship....you've never heard of the millenium falcon?"
"Should I have?"
"Its the ship that made the kessel run in less than 12 parsecs." (at the time, lucas didn't know that a parsec is a unit of measure, not time.)
This is han bragging about the falcon's speed.
"I'm talking about the big corillian ships" is in direct reference to ZD-9300 corellian-class star destroyers. At the time, these were the fastest cruisers in the Imperial war machine.
"She's fast enough for the old man."
We see star destroyers keep pace with him? Uh.....he out ran them and made the jump to lightspeed. He also outran them in ESB. Notice how none of them ever catch the falcon in a tractor beam.

Agian, this is dipicted as so uncommon that Old Han has neither tried it nor knows if its even possible. It not something peaple do, and everybodies reactions when peaple do go and do it make it clear its supposed to be crazy dangerous.

You referencing in atmosphere jumps/exits happening in the 7th film of the saga, only strengthens my point about the DT ignoring established lore.

Gravity wells, artificial or otherwise, do not exist in hyperspace. They are aspects of the universe that can pull craft from hyperspace. Craft traveling through hyperspace do not affect things in normal space. If that were the case, every craft flying through the galaxy would just get shredded by micro asteroids and other random space debris.

Sidious did'nt want her to leave - he was suprised when she did, and tried to stop her. He thought he had wrapped around his finger and undestimated her resolve.

The movie literally shows him crack a smirk after she walks away. It was pretty clear that he was playing the role of her concerned ally and advisor. I mean...you're not arguing that palpatine was legit worried and didn't want padme to return to naboo...are you?





what explosions? It looked like the FO got clawed by some massive animal.
We see the damage happen in real time, in sequence. How come we couldn't see her ship, even before she connected with the several SDs she destroyed?

Established in the EU. Everything else from the movies is just supposition on your part.

In a post before this one, you literally demonstrated that you understood how consistency can establish an accepted rule set. So I have no idea what you're conveying here.

And agian, Lucas was heavily involved in TCW and did'nt say anything about said episode, so clearly his intention for hyperspace's rules is different from your interpretation.

Lucas was also very heavily involved in the OT and PT....so.......clearly his intention, at least during the production of those films, for the rules of hyperspace travel, was correctly interpreted by myself.

Becuse sucide attacks are stupid and a waste of men and materiel. How often is ramming employed in the real world? Rarely, even the breif flirtation with torpedo rams in the 1800s was'nt built around the idea of ramming ships, but rather ramming through harbor defenses to attack ships with torpedos.

Uh.....a suicide attack that doesn't need to be crewed is a waste of men and material? One ship, one person/droid/autopilot, is easily worth it to destroy several cruisers and cripple one hilariously massive cruiser. Thats like saying its not worth it to sacrifice a knight in order to fork someone and take their queen, one of their knights, and one of their rooks. I can referrence actual war time events as well. The japanese caused great havok in the pacific with their kamikaze attacks. A single plane could cripple one of our carriers, depending on the impact. It makes no sense for hypserspace ramming to have been a thing, yet it only happens for the first time during the 2nd/3rd act of the EIGHTH film in the saga.

Force ghosts were already shown to be able interact with the pysical world in RTOJ - Obi-Wan sits on a log and Yoda sits on a realing at the end.

As for being able to use the Force, why would'nt they? Their literally beings who have become one with the Force, so of course they can use it.

Yes, they sat down. They didn't call lightening bolts down onto the enemies of the rebellion why? How come obi wan didn't show up as his young, prime self on bespin, and body vader to save luke? Ignoring established lore causes these kinds of problems.

Umm...K2 stright-up says their odds of surviving are low, which meshes up with how in-atmo jumps are presented otherwise.

Umm... K2 never said anything about "odds" or "survivability". His only concern was for his calculations.
Cassian: "punch it"
K2: "I haven't completed my calculations."
Cassian: "I'll make them for you" *initiates jump to lightspeed*

And yet it happens all the time. We she ships jump in and out of hyperspace in planatery orbit all time - the Imperial fleet at Hoth in ESB,

That is simply false. I don't even understand how you're saying this? We see the rebel fleet exit hyperspace at a considerable distance from not only the deathstar, but endor itself. They do technically exit hyperspace too close to scarif in rogue one, but again referencing that in disney era films, only proves my point. Still, that was probably my favorite shot of the whole film.

I'm pretty sure the Purgills were not a part of the canon before the rebels series. That said, I didn't take issue with what they did, considering they were already well into the realm of "weird".

 

The Falcon's sublight speed (if that's what were talking about) is'nt that great. Agian, both TIEs and Star Destroyers are shown to keep pace with it.

No. Becuse we've since been shown the Kessel Run and all he did was...take a shortcut...

It had nothing to do with his speed.

That what? I just googled that an all I got was a link to a fan sites.

That's not a real ship.

No. He outran them by jumping to hyperspace. And in ESB they were on his ass right up until he went into the asteriod field to get away (and after that we see the Avenger trailing him right behind)

I've refrence established lore that's been part of the current canon since the very beggining.

Your right, they don't. But the fact that gravity wells can pull ships out and stars and supernovas can interfer with travel indicates that certin objects

The damage expands outwards in a V-shape, engulging ships that were off to the side, the most likely culprit would be debrise from the Raddus getting thrown outwards.

Becuse it was transitioning into hyperspace when it impacted; she was in the "star streak" part and had'nt reached the "doctor who wormhole effect" part that follows that.

That nothing from the EU has mattered since 2014.

Lucas never said anything about in-atmo jumps in his movies, and don't you think if he had a problem with it and tought it broke some "rule" he would have said something about it when it came up in TCW?

Only under very specific cercimstances.

And you'd need a ship of equivilant (or near equivilant) size to do any real damage - remember, we see a Rebel transport hit the Devestator while she's accelrating into hyperspace in R1 and it does a whole lotta nothing to the latter ship.


The Gallofrey's engines light up, and right as it starts to accelarate it slams into the Devestator and goes splat like a bug on windshild.

You need to brush up on your history, becuse those attacks accoplished nothing except wasting planes and pilots that, at that point in the war, the Japanese could not afford to lose. It was horribly inefficent and only helped them lose the war faster - which is something the Germans realized very quickly with their own sucide attack program.

Any ships that were lost (and very few actually were, estimates place the losses at around 47, which includes vessels from the other Allied navies and not just the USN) from Kamikaze attacks could be easily replaced at that point as well, even aircraft carriers - the US was pumping out Bogues and Casablancas like there was no tommorow.

It makes no sense TO YOU.

Who knows? But there's no reason to think a being who has become one with the Force can't...use the Force.

He stright-up tells Luke he "can't interfere" - and the Jedi ghosts in TROS don't interfere directly, they just empower Rey, and their doing it together, not alone like Obi-Wan would have.

Fair enough, I just checked it agian.

But good thing I did becuse guess what? They also make the jump from low orbit, not from in-atmo.

You know Endor Prime is a gas giant, right? with multipule moons, their would be crazy gravity going on their, even if they were'nt right on top of the Sanctuary moon. And agian, there's the Imperial fleet in Hoth which "came out of lightspeed to close to the system" and, in the scene right after its said to have arrived, is shown to be right ontop of Hoth.

And oh, what's this, an example of a pre-disney showing of exiting hyperspace in a planet's orbit, agian from TCW, a show Lucas was so heavily involved in that if it broke any "rules" he would have stepped in.*

*and in that episode, the concern was jumping out on top of grevious ship, not on top of planet.

 

The hyperspace ramming and atmospheric jumps and entry are pretty clearly presented or explicitly stated as million to one shots. The rebels didn't do it on Hoth or Han on Tatooine because they didn't want to go explodey so they go to open space is the only "this isn't going to kill us like trying to jump from atmosphere most probably certainly will."

 

It's literally this simple.

In fantasy fiction, one of the primary reason to have a rule is to break it. The breaking it gets weight as a special event.

Let it go. It's the only way the "rules" of star wars and their continual inconsistencies don't ruin the fun.

 

The rule about getting clear of gravity wells before jumping to hyperspace dates all the way back to 1976. The original novelization of Star Wars ("Soon to be a Major Motion Picture!") explained that rule while the Falcon was escaping Tatooine. IIRC, it said ships need to get to a distance of about six planetary diameters away before the gravity well has weakened enough to allow for the jump to happen.

 

Actually, two things are being conflated - the scene where the DS1 arrives in range of Alderaan, and the Falcon scene.

Falcon scene

"We're still within the gravitational influence of Tatooine," came the cool response. "It will be a few minutes yet before the navigation computer can compensate and effect an accurate jump. I could override its decision, but the hyperdrive would likely shred itself. That would give me a nice hold full of scrap metal in addition to you four."

Death Star scene

A voice announced over a hidden speaker that they had approached within antigrav range of Alderaan — approximately six planetary diameters. That was enough to accomplish what all of Vader's infernal devices had failed to.

 

Thanks for clearing that up, @Iron_lord. I haven't read the book in ages, but I knew I remembered six planetary diameters.

 

Because she is moving at about the speed of light. The fracture is from her ship hitting the Supremcy and breaking apart which then acts as shrapnel taking out all of the other ships. Had she enterted Hyperspace she would have passed through the FO with out damaging any of them since Hyperspace is another dimiension

watch the video again. You clearly see there are no ships above the others. They form a ring around the planet not a sphere



this isnt' something you can debate as it's very clear in the movie

as others pointed out his bragging about the speed had nothing to do with gravity wells like you are weirdly claiming.

for the same reason we don't use suicide bombers in our air force. It's possible, it can do a lot of damage. But why build a ship for it when you have weapons that are cheaper and much more useful.

Again this only worked because the FO wasn't firing at Holdo. We see in TLJ when the medical frigate runs out of fuel it is destroyed before it can even turn around.

In Rogue One we see the Vader disable the ships engines before it can make the jump to light speed. So the odds of succesfullly pulling it off are clearly 1 in a million.

Why build a captial ship to only use as a 1 time weapon when you could build smaller fighters and missles that can take out ships and reuse your capital ship?

oh they absolutely didn't. I've read every star wars book and the EU books where a mess. full of constant contradictions and rule breaking things. Just read any of the post ROTJ books by Troy Denning, they are just awful. Troy goes into great detail about how the force works and the afterlife all of which breaks the rules set up by the movies.

never once has it said that is impossible in any of the canon novels.



edit: I'd like to add some of you are acting like they can't jump because gravity is too strong. Like it's some incredibly powerful force. Gravity is the weakest of all the four fundamental interactions ( Gravity, Electromagnetism, Strong Nuclear, Weak Nuclear) It's so weak you are defeating it right now by being able to move.

It would make no sense that being near a planet would prevent you from going to hyperspace. Especially since gravity has an infinite range

in ANH Han says
Traveling through hyperspace isn't
like dusting crops, boy! Without
precise calculations we could fly
right through a star or bounce too
close to a supernova and that'd end
your trip real quick, wouldn't it?


Nothing about planets, only things that have an extremely strong gravitational pull due to their immense mass. A planet could never have anything even close to the mass or gravitational pull of a sun or a supernova. If they did there would be no life on that planet.

 

I'm willing to accept whatever "rules" SW bends in terms of what we see related to hyperspace. However, I will say that I felt TROS used this gimmick a little too freely. Between Kylo Ren's multiple complicated jumps to Exegol, and Poe's lightspeed skipping trick (although it was kind of cool), not to mention-first they're jumping to THIS planet. Then they're jumping to THAT planet...It just seemed kind of...taken for granted, like to the level of some kid riding his bike from one side of the neighborhood to the other to get back and forth between his friend's houses. In past SW films, the whole hyperspace thing was used more...sparingly and had a bit more sense of "grandiose-ness" to it.

 

If that's all true, why did Lucas change it? I've given you a pretty well though out rationale for why I think he did. What's yours?

Do you think the USAF would meet its recruiting goals if its premier front line bomber was the B-99 "Kamikaze"?

Again, going back to the Patton quote, what he's saying is, "Your life has value and I value your life." His soldiers loved him as a soldier's general because, even though they might die under his command, they knew he was not going to throw their lives away and he didn't want them to throw their lives away either.

War is not a game; men do not follow those who do not value them. A commander who commits suicide is not one the troops will find inspiring. If one of the top Resistance commanders doesn't value her life, the movie's message is that the Resistance (the purported good guys) do not value life. You have been duped by Johnson's clever but empty subversion and some pretty graphics into conflating suicide with heroism. It is not and neither is her act.

"For my ally is the Force, and a powerful ally it is. Life creates it, makes it grow."

The quick and easy path of suicide has no place in Star Wars movies. Never has, never will.

 

WRONG a commander who is willing to risk their life to save his troops will inspire their troops.

 

1. Star destroyers kept pace. I guess they just decided not to tractor to falcon.

2. I'm sure George Lucas didn't have an anthology film in mind 40 years before it was created, when he wrote the cantina scene in ANH.

3. You're not familiar with the ship class and it contradicts your argument, therefore, "it's not real". Moving on.

4. Again. He didn't outrun them. They just decided not to destroy or tractor the falcon because of reasons.

5. In atmosphere jumps occured in the first six films? Interesting.

6. Huh? Incomplete sentence.


7. Uh....explosions don't work that way. Physics don't work that way.

8. Ah. So the radius was invisible as it wrecked a whole fleet.

9. That's cool. Um...I've been referencing the OT and ST. The only book I've mentioned was the in canon thrawn book.

10. He never said anything. He just made sure to never depict them for six movies straight, even when it would've been very convenient.

11. The cruiser wasn't even moving as fast as smaller ships around it. Also, the radius was much smaller than the supremacy and it crippled that ship while also destroying several star destroyers.

12.......kamikaze attacks......did little damage. Ok. Not even gonna bother with that one. And yes rosie was cranking out ships back home. That is totally besides my point.

13. Me and a lot of other viewers. The holdo maneuver was a point of contention for many many fans.

14.its weird that they never jump in and help with a bolt of lightening. Weird how breaking consistency can bring forth questions regarding the whole saga.

15. Nah man. They were in atmosphere when cassian pulls the lever. Lol it's right there on screen. *shruggs*.

16. God....the movie shows that they are a considerable distance from endor. Esb never shows the exit from hyperspace. We merely see a ozzel's sd approaching the planet. Vader's grievance says ozzel came out of light speed too close to the system.

17. Thank you for providing one example of an in atmosphere jump. This totally out weighs the consistency of six films.

Thats kind of how i feel. Without "rules" it all starts to feel wacky. In TROS, rey could've used her animality at the end and turned into a purple brontosaurus with yellow spots, feathered wings, nine tails, and claws made of watermelon flavored jollyrangers. We could sit there and think "well, the films never said a person couldn't use the force to do that." or "hey rules are made to be broken, this is more fun." or we could sit there and think "what...the ****." If a writer has free reign to pull anything out whenever he/she wants, then it tends to destroy stakes and cause confusion across the board. A similar thing happened in game of thrones where after several seasons showing that traveling actually takes a lot of time, viewers were subjected to near teleportation levels of silliness.

 

Oh look, evidance of jumps with a gravity field being possible, just very, very dangerous and likely to fail, and from a canon source directly related to the very first film.

I don't know if that was your intent, Iron, but thanks!

Shut yo mouth, Star By Star was amazing. I'll fight you on the beaches and in the streets over that!

The rest of his novels were pretty meh, though, I'll give you that, and indeed don't really line up (not only with the films, but with some other EU stuff as well)

In fact, Iron_Lord, intentionally or not, just qouted one that says it is - and one based on Lucas's own script for the very first movie to boot!

We don't know the range of the tractor beams, but we can see the destroyers keeping pace fairly easily - keep in mind the Falcon's actually is faster then the destroyers, but only by a factor of fifteen MGLT (Megalight) per hour (60 compared to 75) - the Falcon can keep ahead of them, but with such a slim difference in speed the Star Destroyers could (and do, from what were shown) easily keep pace close enough to not lose her, especially in open space with no obsiticals.

TIEs, on the other hand, are much faster then the Falcon (100 MGLT as opposed to 75)

It's stright-up not a canon ship. Hell, not only is it non-canon, its fanon - your using something from fanfics to argue canon, that's like...what?

Give me a link to the Wook page for that ship. Or better yet tell me what peice of canon or legends material it's sourced from.

TCW has been part of the new canon since it's inception, and nothing in the first six movies make in-atmo jumps are impossible.

Your argument seems to be "it was never shown to happen, so it must not be possible even though its never stated that it actually is'nt."

Apologies, it was getting late and I slipped up while re-formating. The intended sentance was - But the fact that gravity wells can pull ships out and stars and supernovas can interfer with travel indicates that certin objects..."can affect hyperspace."

And object hitting anouther object and exploding throws strapnal and debris outwards, so yes, that is exactly how explosions and pysics work.

Yes. Their is a moment, between jumping to hyperspace and fully entering hyperspace, were the ships has yet to fully transition through dimensions (hyperspace is an alternate dimension) and thus, appears to be invisable but can still pysical interact with other objects in realspace.

You never "referenced" anything from those trilogies, though, you've just been stating your interpetation of what they present as if its fact.

And if the Thrawn books says something, and the vast majority of the rest of the canon says anouther then why would you assume the Thrawn book is right in that regard, as opposed to the more numerous sources that say otherwise?

But if he had an issue with it, or thought it broke any "rules", don't you think he would have stopped them from dipicting it? Ditto on jumps in orbit.

The Raddus is 3,438.37 meters long, larger then the Resurgents and more or less the slightly smaller as the section of the Supremacy's wing it impacted, if we compare that section to the Resurgents. The wing, by virtue of its contruction and (relative) narrowness, would have also been more fragile compared to the Raddus then the solid armor of the Devestator's prow was compared to the Gallofree

The Devestator in contrast is 1,600 meters and a Gallofree is just 90 meters. We can see from the engine glow that it was already entering hyperspace, and given how fast the others went from engine glow to jump and how much time had passed since its engines started glowing it would have already been speeding up when it hit.

They did'nt. That's a matter of historial fact. The were devesating, but the actual losses in ships that they incured were low.

The best count for how many ships the kimkazies actually managed to sink, and not just damage, is just forty seven from all of the allied navies engaged in the Pacific War combined, and the USN, RAN and RN together had over a thousand ships deployed to fight Japan.

Towards the end of the war all these attacks were doing was wasting pilots and planes - the Japanese could'nt recupe their losses, while the Americans could just send damaged ships back to port and pull up fresh ones to take their place; it was a waste and did more damage to them then to their enemies.

If you choose to face Vader, you will do it alone. I cannot interfere.

Just becuse we're shown that they can use the Force dos'nt mean their allowed to use it to help sway battles. Yoda was'nt interfering in anything (Rey had already taken the books, and he knew that) and the Force-ghosts in TROS are A; combining their powers and not acting alone and B; not directly interfering, but acting through anouther.

Cassian pulls the lever and the ships starts to accelerate, then it immedatly cuts away and shows it jumping. The area that it emerges from the ejecta in is what would probobly be the exosphere at best, and well within what Star Wars classafies as "orbit."

An officer tells Rieekan that the Imperial fleet is coming out of* hyperspace, and then it cuts to the fleet and its...right in orbit. Veers comes in and tells Vader what's up, and Vader learns about Ozzels mistake. This is all presented as being in real-time, and we're given no reason to think otherwise, so if your supposition is correct the fleet would have had to either telaport or speed across space much faster then we've ever seen any ship in Star Wars travel at sublight.

*in the present-tense, so when the report is deliverted the fleet is still in the process of transitioning in.

It would only outweigh it if you provided actual evidance, and not what, with all due respect, appear to just be your own interpetations of what the films present.

Agian, the films never say its in-atmo/atomspheric jumps are inpossible, and the novelization of the very first movie flat out says jumping in a gravity well can be done, its just dangerous and will probobly cuase the engine to explode.

We have plenty of examples proving it is possible to jump in-atmo, and have been given enough information to know that in those handful of situations the peaple jumping got very, very lucky and that the manuaver is rare and not one peaple a want to try, which is in turn enough to explain why its not done all the time.

The opinion of some fans does not dicatate what is and is not possible in-universe. Hyperpace ramming works fine with the information presented before and since, as does in-atmo jumps, atomspheric jumps and even, yes, hyperspace skipping even if it streches things slightly.

 

1. The passage you referenced clearly says that trying to initiate the jump while in the grav pull, would destroy the hyperdrive....which....would....make the jump.....not....possible.

2. oh ok, so they kept pace....but were just not keeping pace close enough to use a tractor beam on the falcon. That definitely doesn't mean that the falcon out ran an imperial star destroyer though.

3. Explosions don't work that way. As in, explosions do not throw shrapnel in neat, tight corridors such as what was seen destroying SDs during the holdo maneuver.

4. I'd copy and paste all the posts I made directly referencing hyperspace jumps and conversations regarding hyperspace jumps, that took place in the OT, but there's really no point in doing that.

5. Again, i can mention that we see in the movie that the raddus is VERY dwarfed by the supremacy and in no way are the two crafts' sizes comparable, but again...what would even be the point?

6. nobody made a point saying kamikazes destroyed TONS of ships. Kamikazes were mentioned, then you tried to argue that they did virtually no damage to the ships they impacted on. I found it to be such an uninformed take, that i said that i won't even touch it.

Just becuse we're shown that they can use the Force dos'nt mean their allowed to use it.
7.Ok.

8. Bruh....you posted an abridged version of the scene. However, its still clear that cassian initiates the jump while in atmosphere. We even see the view from the cockpit go from the sky as the rocks were over them, to the star stretch effect. Do you understand? Initiating a hyperspace jump in atmosphere is supposed to be impossible. Even in the clip you just posted, it depicts a hyperspace jump...in atmosphere.



9. Sigh....after vader tells Ozzel to "set your course for the hoth system", the movie cuts back to the rebels. We see luke and han say what they think are their final goodbyes. Then we see a rebel report to the general that "there is a fleet of star destroyers coming out of hyperspace in sector 4." The general says to "re-route all power to the energy shield.". The general then comments to another subordinate that they "have to hold them till all transports are away". The movie then cuts back to the imperial fleet (with the march theme playing). We see a dreadnought along with a bunch of SDs as well as TIEs. Shocker...they are actually a considerable distance from Hoth. They're far enough away in the shot, that not only can you see two of Hoth's moons, but you can see the entire sphere of the planet. I don't know how this is still going on? How are you arguing points that are contradicted by the film itself? You can just watch the scene we're discussing and see for yourself. The largest object in the shot was the dreadnought. Look, its right here, plain as day. Its just...there. Crystal clear. No orbital exit or anything. We don't even see them exit. We see them on approach. Look how far away they are. I dunno how to make it any more clear than this.

^^^^This is in orbit?!?!?? Jesus!! that dreadnaught must be HUGE!!! I didn't know regular star destroyers were so massive that while in orbit, they take up that much visual real-estate. Its like a quarter of the size of Hoth. Wait a min....whats that much further away SD thats still not close to the planet? ....hmm that must be ozzel. Funny how even though they're in orbit, he's shown to be a lot closer, yet still so far from the planet.


It would only outweigh it if you provided actual evidance.
10. I....I dunno even know what to say. Six...movies of no depictions of in atmosphere jumps. Six movies of blatant depictions of craft not only flying into space, but flying away from planets before entering hyperspace, but no evidence.

11. Oh i would never suggest that our opinions dictate what is possible in universe. (though a group of shippers may rightfully disagree.) I was just pointing out the fact that while you emphasized "YOU" as if to present my view as a singular anomaly, my POV is actually widespread. There was even a guy having a meltdown on some morning show about how "you can't weaponize hyperspace.".

 

Han Solo saying he outrun ships I think means exactly that. The Falcon is clearly there because the love Lucas had for racing cars. I'm pretty sure the intent is to make the falcon the best hot rod in the galaxy.

 

"We're still within the gravitational influence of Tatooine," came the cool response. "It will be a few minutes yet before the navigation computer can compensate and effect an accurate jump. I could override its decision, but the hyperdrive would likely shred itself. That would give me a nice hold full of scrap metal in addition to you four."

"Would likely." not would. Would likely - as in, that might not happen, but probobly would.

Hyperspace jumps in gravity wells (hence, in-atmo or in orbit) are possible. Just unlikely to suceed and highly risky, thus why their rarely done.

But, in open space with no obsticales, or without ever jumping, the Falcon would only ever be able to stay slightly ahead of, not outrun, the Star Destroyers.

The explosion is tossed out in a V shape - or, more accurately, a conical shape since some of the Star Destroyers are above or below others. This cone is facing away from were the Raddus hit, and is being pushed outward by the impact of that ship and then thrown to up, down and to the sides by the blast.

We can't actually say if the explosion was "neat," since we can't actually see the explosion, only the effects of what it impacts.

One conversation. That's all. From ANH, and the expanded version of that conversation from the novel flat-out says its possible, just unlikly, to jump in a gravity well.

The Raddus is smaller then the Supremacy, but its much closer in size to the section of it that it impacted then the Gallofree was to the Devestator.

The point is that sucide attacks are not viable, and only serve to waste men and material. Japan actually lost the war faster by exploying such tactics, becuse they could not afford the losses that the Allies could and thus did more damage to themselves then to the enemy.

My bad. Guess what, the full scene still shows the same thing.

If a hyperspace jump in-atmo is supposed to be impossible, but multipule canon sources show it is possible then...it's not impossible.

That would still be close enough to be affected by Hoth's gravity - remember how small Earth looks from our own moon, an object that, you know, orbits the Earth.

And while the Rebels did'nt emerge right in orbit of the Forest Moon, they were shown to be close enough to it when they dropped out that they must have been within the gravity feild of Endor itself, even though we don't see the gas gaint.

And no actual lines saying that such a thing is impossible, with only one line referencing the machianics of hyperspace jumps saying nothing about planets or their gravity wells except in the novel, were the line is expanded to it would only likely, not definatly, result in disaster.

But a commander who sacrafices his (or her) life in order to save his troops is one they would.

That's not the movies message at all. On top of that, there's no reason to think Holdo did'nt value her life and possesed a desire to die, simply that she was willing to sacrafice herself so others could live.

Agian, your conflating sucide to escape something, or sucide becuse of emotional issues, with sacrficing yourself to save others.

Also, never has? Never will?













All pre-TLJ.

I'm not even sure what the argument is. Do you think peaple in the GFFA are mentally hardwired to be unable to take their own lives?

The "hot rod" thing was indeed what Lucas was going with, and Han may very well have outrun the ships he was talking about, but he was not talking about Star Destroyers. He never mentions Star Destroyers in that scene, and whenever we see the Falcon chased by SDs it can only ever keep just ahead of them, not outrun them - the two times Han does evade them, both in ESB, it's not through speed but by going into an asteriod feild and then through using trickery.

 

Why did he add Jabba to ANH, why did he throw Hayden into RotJ? ("Why did Leonardo DiCaprio paint the Mona Lisa?" - Bruno. Etc.) Because he could, because he likes to tinker, not always for the best.

It's a little hard to make your "George believes in everything being simple & black & white and as non-confrontational/violent as possible" after, say, EpIII and then McCallum's talk about their proposed TV show being dark as balls and the most adult/ethically-gray thing Lucas has ever done, too.

Sure, it's true George probably wanted to alter Han to be a little more hugs-and-smiles-and-puppies when he went back in '97 to tinker.

That's not necessarily to say there was any ethical qualm to begin with. Greedo was there to kill or take Han to someone who'd likely kill-or-torture him. Han snuffed him before he could. That's something kids have been dealing with in fiction going back to the old western stuff and likely before. Don't tell me you're one of the "Luke killed a bunch of civilian contractors & cooks & janitors on the Death Star so maybe he shouldn't have done it!" train too.

Regarding your second part there to the other poster about the hyperspace-and-kamikaze stuff and Patton, c'mon now. "Suicide" is the wrong word and you know it. This isn't some Imperial Japanese commander slicing his own intestines in defeat to preserve honor, it's a selfless sacrifice in an assault play to save others.

You seriously think a guy like Patton isn't going to want to give out posthumous Medals Of Honor to troops who jumped on a grenade and got vaporized to save their squad? That's laughable, that guy and every other general ever commend such behavior as they should. Sacrifice plays are made in war all the goddamn time. Example: Polish RAF volunteers running out of ammo and intentionally ramming/crashing into one of Jerry's bombers to bring them down, knowing they might be able to bail out and survive but might not too. That's no different at all to what Holdo did.

There's not only a moral problem with pre-emptively gunning down a career murderer who's just told you he's going to enjoy doing just that to you in a few moments, but there's a moral problem with soldiers or officers giving their own lives in a diversionary hail-mary play too? Wow, man. Glad you're not in charge of any real-life law enforcement or armed forces.

 

To be fair, even when we see them, they're not called Star Destroyers on screen in ANH - they're called Imperial cruisers. Tie-in material called them Star Destroyers, but not the movie itself - not till TESB.

"I've outrun Imperial starships. Not the local bulk cruisers, mind you, I'm talking about the big Corellian ships here".

It was Star Wars Poster Monthly that showed that the ship in ANH was a "triangular Corellian cruiser" - and that the model squad dubbed it "the Star Destroyer".

STAR WARS: OFFICIAL POSTER MONTHLY #13
Published October 1978

http://theforce.net/image_popup/image_popup_global.asp?Image=timetales/misc/arcana/pos13-03.jpg

 

True, but with the information that we've gotten since and have now, it's pretty fair to say he's not talking about Star Destroyers (or at least, not Imperial-class Star Destroyers)

ImpStars are Kuati, and while we do see some being built at Corellia in Solo, it still would'nt be a Corellian ship - a Honda Civic would'nt suddently become a Ford Civic if Honda started outsourching some of their construction to a Ford factory in Detroit*.

The fact that he never actually outruns ImpStars in the movies just makes it all the clearer that he's not talking about those when he says "big Corellian ships" - either that, or he was just lying to impress Obi-Wan and Luke (which who knows, he might have been).

*assuming that the shipyard in Solo is even a CEC facility and not just a KDY facility that happens to be on Corellia, which it could very easily be.

The whole argument kinda rings hollow when you remember he kept the part later in the movie were he guns down an Imperial officer who had'nt even finished drawing his gun - if Han was so moral as to wait for Greedo to shoot first, why would he kill a man who not only had'nt fired, but did'nt even have his gun out?

 

Or the outrunning is only early on, before the Empire fully upgraded their engines. I could see Han not making the distinction when it comes to where a ship's built vs where it's designed - he's a layman rather than an expert.

He's seen ISDs built at Corellia, so for him they're "Corellian ships".


Han also calls the Falcon the fastest ship in the fleet, when lending it to Lando.

 

True, but it seems like a lot of reading-between-the-lines and speculation. For instance, we'd have to assume Star Destroyers were originally built with different or slower engines, when I don't think theirs anything to suggest this.

If anything he would probobly just say "big Imperial ships" if he meant SDs.

It may very well be, if we discount fighters. The Rebels clearly don't consider it equivilant to such units, since they granted Han the naval rank of captain.

That dos'nt mean it could actually outrun, say Home One, but it could easily indeed be faster then the rest of the ships in the fleet.

 

"I've outrun Imperial starships"

In both Star Wars canon and Legends tie-in material, speeds in space are in "MGLT" and accelerations are in G.

The ISD's are 60 MGLT and 2300G.
The Falcon's are 75 MGLT and 3000G.