ST I don't remember Phantom Menace being as big as Force Awakens

The hype was real (what I remember of it). TFA seems bigger because of social media that wasn't there before. The TPM hype-train got me to this site and eventually led me to create my account.

 

tpm was bigger.

 

It was huge. I wasn't into Star Wars at the time but after hearing so much buzz about PT I decided to give it a go. I've been a SW fan since.

 

In some ways, LOTR (fotr) and TPM might be marked as the beginning of "geek hype culture" "fanboy culture" or whatever you want to call it now. Those two films kind of kicked off the online craziness we see for all kinds of films these days

 

It's true that marketing (which basically just exists to increase hype) and brand recognition are the primary factors...for the opening weekend. The difference that occurs is that a film that is also of good quality tends to do better in the long term. Quality is a multiplier.

In any case, TPM hype was much bigger than TFA, but TFA has definitely had the biggest hype of any movie since RotS (The Hype-o-Meter for the Prequels was 1. TPM, 2. RotS, and 3. AotC). The only thing that has come close in the interim was probably the last Harry Potter film. Even the Avengers (both of them) weren't nearly as big. Most of the really big successes of the last 10 years have not been as heavily hyped beforehand.

However, the rub is that a lot of that is because of the Prequels (and TPM in particular). Retailers and merchandising partners took a powder on unsold TPM stock (it lingered around for years afterwards in some cases). AotC had a much smaller "push" and RotS rebounded a bit. Basically after TPM didn't quite live up to the hype, Hollywood and the licensing partners became a little more cautious about pushing things that much.

 

The money TPM did TFA did in less than 2 weeks so yeah is not rewriting history.

 

There are really three "geeks go mainstream" moments at the movies of the late 90's/Early 00's:

The Prequel Trilogy

The LotR Films

The first Spider-Man film. (Many would argue that it was the first X-Men film that was the beginning of the "comic book renaissance" on screens, or even Blade, but while both of them could certainly make the case, Spider-Man was a considerably bigger hit with the mainstream than either).

So yes, I could see some loose links from a cultural sense, but by the same token, I would argue that Star Wars wasn't really "geek culture." Yeah, the super-hardcore Star Wars fans were "geeky" but Star Wars was "mainstream" practically since its' debut in 1977.

 

Another thing I'll add.... The mid to late 90s was kind of a slow building rebirth of SW hype and excitement. For video games we had things like X-wing, then Tie-Fighter, Dark Forces, Dark Forces 2, etc (keep in mind that some of these, Tie Fighter most notably are still considered some of the best games ever made). We had the Zahn novels We had the SE editions. Action figures were released into stores again. All of this was happening in the years leading up to TPMs release and it wasn't a quick run up. I mean some of these things started 5+ years before TPM

 

I would agree that SW is definitely more mainstream than LOTR

 

That didn't bother me. After all Vader is only on screen in ANH for 12 minutes. But killing off Maul in Ep I was a mistake IMO. He could have been a truly great villain, had Lucas played his cards right.

 

I think TPM had the bigger hype, but TFA had the better reviews?

 

TPM had the bigger hype and the marketing was everywhere but mixed reviews and a lukewarm response from the fans didn't give it the legs of TFA, it was still a hit, a big one and I get chastised when I say it but I don't think it was the box office smash they were expecting and as some like to make out. I remember the predictions at the time saying it would beat Titanic, same for AOTC. TFA is an example of what good reviews and solid word of mouth can do for an established franchise.

 

I saw TPM at midnight. I was on SW forums before its release. It was super hyped and lots of excitement. To this day, including TFA, I've never experienced a more fun movie in a theater than TPM. The cheering was off the chain. I saw TPM 4 times in the first week. Each time, the excitement was evident. This is one of the reasons I believe the "negative" backlash was an after product. I'm not saying no one hated the movie. Just saying it was not evident at the time. I also saw TPM when it was released in 3D. Packed theater.

I saw TFA on the first showing as well. Packed house. However, the difference from my point of view was that there was very little cheering, only 2 people in costume etc... The excitement wasn't even close to what it was for TPM (I'm talking about the crowd reaction). In fact, the ONLY cheering/applause during the showing I was at was for the first appearance of the old characters. That was it.

I loved TFA. I saw it again a day later. But I also have a lot of issues with it. Over all, it was a slight disappointment considering I'm a fan of all the SW movies and a huge JJ Abrams fan.

 

Pretty good summary. I'd just add, some actually love the Prequels because its what we wanted to see. We wanted the information about what happened and we got it. The "boring" parts weren't so boring. I'm not a fan of movie critics. I really don't care what they say. There's a lot of critically acclaimed movies I think suck and other movies critics hate that I love.

 

I commend you for your attitude. I'm sure all of us like things that aren't super popular or that are not liked by others. If everyone liked the same things the world would be a boring place.

Although I still think we'd all be better off without reality TV

 

This is accurate...
The RLM reviews are what got people turned against the Prequels IMO. There was nowhere near the negativity when TPM came out and even the others. I think others have pointed out that the internet wasn't as big as well.
Another thing to consider: Today, everyone hates everything. Its really a big deal in Video Games as well. It all gets back to opinions. Everyone has different opinions. What I "hate"...lol... is that some people are greatly influenced by these opinions. It was evident here on this site. People are SO WORRIED about what the Rotten Tomatoes scores are. I don't get that. I've never looked at Movie reviews before going to see a movie. Video games are different. 60 dollars for a game, I will watch gameplay videos.

 

For me though theres a difference between "geeks going mainstream" in the very late 90's to mid 00's and the kind of environment we've had in recent years that's more "geeks sell out".

Back then most of the big geek film franchises were very much in the hands of a creative director/writer, be that Lucas with SW, Jackson with LOTR, the Wachowskis with the Matrix, Sam Rami with Spiderman or Nolan with Batman. More recently though I think the model that were seeing followed is that of Harry Potter with no director having clear control of the franchise and franchises being extended way beyond trilogies.

I think back then you had much more of a rollercoaster in terms of film quality as well, this the creatives in control there was the potential for truly great cinema like say LOTR, the Dark Knight or the original Matrix but there was also potential for significant misfires like the PT, Spiderman 3 or the Matrix sequels.

I think quality seemed to make a much bigger difference with fan and reviewer reaction back then as well, the really great stuff was praised and the less than great was criticized heavily. These days though it just seems that if the hype is strong enough a decent but not brilliant film like marvel pump out every few months is enough.

 

The volume of tacky The Phantom Menace merchandise was higher and the number of hare-brained marketing tie-ins greater. The Walkers Crisps Star Wars 'Tazos' promotion of 1996/7- much hyped to announce the release of the Special Edition versions of the OT - seemed modest compared to the relentless pushing of joyless Darth Maul, Jar Jar and Amidala-related tat .

Before TPM had even been released the bargain stores were filled with largely unwanted Star Wars stuff. I vividly remember what seemed like thousands of Queen Amidala figures heaped in pound store bargain bins for years after the film's release, and dreadfully unsubtle awful-font JEDI Vs. SITH logos emblazoned all over the place - chewing gum, baby bottles, lunchboxes - you name it. God knows I received gifts galore from well-meaning relatives featuring images of Sio Bibble and Nemoidians which broke my heart.

There's some amusing revisionism going on here among PT fans. Certainly in the UK the response to TPM was one of crushing disappointment and quite frankly bewilderment at some of the directorial decisions made by George. It was very difficult being a Star Wars fan in 1999 - even more so in 2002 when things really just went from bad to worse. I remember in 2005 a friend of mine saying, "I'm just relieved its all over," after ROTS. Such a shame.

It was all the more galling that the LOTR films were being released at the time. Weta and Peter Jackson took CGI to a staggering new level which, somehow, ILM with the prequels couldn't quite match. More importantly, Jackson meshed that technology with a great acting, a real, beautifully photographed environment, and added the essential ingredients of a meaningful, well-crafted story and relatable characters.

There's no Internet-based 'witch hunt' against the prequels. It's just that the Internet, as channels like Twitter and Facebook have given people a voice, now better reflects the response you would have got from almost most Star Wars fans outside most cinemas in May 1999: 'Was that it?'

 

http://www.boxofficemojo.com/alltime/weekends/?adjust_yr=2016&p=.htm
You guys realize that opening weekend was only 15% of total gross for TPM right? Only avatar is a lower percentage since (Jurassic Park was also smaller) while opening with more than 87 million and in the top 100 all time in the opening weekend, and TPM had a bigger opening weekend than either Jurassic park or Avatar.

If word of mouth was awful during its theatrical run, than that would not have happened.

Edit: iy looks like TFA will be higher with a lower total percentage ATM, as it is no 1 all time unadjusted for weeks 1-3, but it remains to be seen. I hope it does! SW #1

 

So just like TESB and ROTJ then. To pretend their reception from critics was not mixed in also incorrect. The audiences of course has no problems with them.

I don't see how we can call it anything other than a rewriting of history.

We have gone over this on the box office thread again and again.

The only real objective evidence is that TPM became the second highest grossing film of all-time worldwide behind Titanic and third domestically only behind Titanic and ANH (multiple releases). Now 16 years later after a second major release it's still in the all-time domestic to 10. It was in the top 5 until this year with JW and now TFA passing it.

By some critics just like TESB and ROTJ and a portion of fans. Not the actual audience themselves who have just kept on buying it for the last 16 years on VHS, DVD, BD and now digital.

I can never and will never understand why Star Wars fans can't simply accept the objective fact of the success of TPM and the prequels with audiences all around the world.

I'd think having such success would make any fan happy.

Exactly. Again this is old news on the box office thread but the argument seems to come down to. Sure they were huge hits but they should have been even bigger.

They you get into the conundrum about just because it's got big box office doesn't mean it's good but if it's good then it will get big box office. This is dependent on whether the individual talking likes the film or not of course.

For parts of the overall fan genre community.

Doesn't effect the actual rest of the audience's enjoyment.

 

As noted: The VAST majority of the audience that pays to see these movies is the same audience that's made the execrable Transformers franchise a huge success. They don't care if a movie is "good" or "bad" from a critical perspective as long as they're entertained for a couple hours, and don't give a hoot about Star Wars once they leave the theater beyond a vague sense of "Yeah, I like Star Wars all right."

So yeah, plenty of people paid money to see TPM and had no complaints, but that does NOT change the fact that the backlash was FAR swifter than folks are making out. Jar-Jar, the racist caricature aspects, and the leaden performances were all VERY swiftly pointed out as flaws, while conversely the duel with Darth Maul was clearly the highlight. And that was about it.

"George Lucas raped my childhood" was around WELL before Red Letter Media.

 

Don't forget TPM gladly played into the hype. There was a marketing campaign taking shots at Godzilla with the tag line "Plot Matters" before the film even had trailers. After the release I think a lot of people felt Lucas was just rusty as a director and the follow up films would improve. Older fans weren't as enthusiastic but I think there was still many that would give Lucas the benefit of the doubt for upcoming episodes.

 

I seem to remember the films getting savaged online long before the RLM reviews came along. All they did was take every complaint ever made and put it all together in one big review tearing them down, I disagree with a lot of the things in the RLM reviews, also they are made in extremely poor taste.

 

I'll be honest, that's one reason I was so happy with TFA. I was fully prepared that this would be a much worse film.

Same thing with LOTR - Regardless of anyone's criticisms of the LOTR trilogy, Jackson did a pretty good job of restraining himself and keeping the stupid stuff to a minimum. Those movies could have been FAR, FAR, FAR worse. (and IMO, he did the most iimportant thing, which is to capture the main tone/message of LOTR)

If you want to see an example of how these things can go horribly wrong just try watching any of the Hobbit Movies..... Pure dreck.

The PT is vastly superior to the garbage Hobbit movies. I'm not a PT hater... you want to know something I hate? The Hobbit movies. I still haven't been able to get through the 3rd one because it's so godawful

 

Lucas definitely got the benefit of the doubt when it came to AOTC. I think if that movie had been significantly better/different than TPM many (if not most) people would have excused TPM as a fluke.

Unfortunately by the time we got to ROTS (which I at least enjoy and consider to be pretty good) I think a lot of people were like "meh, too little, too late"