I have the high ground?

I think that the force betrayed anakin in those final moments. As obi wan says to Anakin ?you were meant to bring the force into balance not throw it into darkness? . Anakin betrayed the force & in those final seconds the force betrayed Anakin Skywalker.

Anakin made that huge jump with relative ease earlier in the duel & in all likeliness he should have been able to make that final jump as well.


if Anakin had made that jump the force would have never been brought in2 balance because Anakin would have killed Obi Wan from there he would have killed palps, he would have taken padma away she would have had kids who anakin would have brought up to embrace the darkside the sith would rule the galaxy & there would be no one capable of ever stopping anakin or his childern.

So Anakin had to be defeated not killed but defeated.

As the advert for the game says all the skills & force powers in the galaxy cant save you from one thing, your destiny.

 

Okay, let's examine the line.

It was a duplicitous statement:
1. He had the advantage in battle. Having the high ground in any type of melee combat is a major benefit. Remember the game "King Of The Hill"? It's very hard to defeat someone that has gravity working in their favor.

2. He was morally correct. He had the moral highground.

Now. Everyone seems to wonder how Anakin couldn't jump over Obi-Wan. Let's examine this as well:
1. The force. I would assume that Obi-Wan also has the ability to ground another Jedi. By focusing on them, he could cause them to not be able to jump nearly as far. Locking them to the ground.

But, ignoring that....
2. Anakin was standing on a floating object - NOT solid ground. Having you ever tried to jump from a raft or an inner tube? You don't get much "air" ... this is because the force you exert on the object is dispersing the force exacted on it to the water (thus sinking the inner tube deeper) rather than pushing the force back at you (which causes you to get "air"). This is a simple physics property of "equal and opposite reactions".

 

The high ground thing bothered me too, it didn't make sense.

I remember early on, reading a quote from maybe McCallum or Pablo, saying that Obi-wan only manages to defeat Anakin because of a terrain-height advantage, and this was at a time when they were filming duel scenes on a slope. From this I always pictured it as Anakin being the one higher up on the slope, giving Obi-wan an easy, clean swipe at his legs.

'Higher ground' in battles is kind of a cliche, having higher ground works great if you've actually got an army, and you can rain down arrows, rocks, etc onto your enemy below, but in a one-on-one swordfight, being up higher than your enemy puts you at a clear disadvantage.

Think about it. If you're standing directly infront of someone, swordfighting, and their knees are level with your eyes, who has the advantage? The lower guy does, because
a) the higherup guy can only attack you from above, so rather than defending against a whole range of attacks, you only have to defend against downward blows. Whereas from the lower position, you can swing at his legs at full force, stab upwards, and swinging your sword at a comfortable eye level you can still reach the normal range of midsection attacks.

b) In order for someone standing above you to defend *their feet* from your attacks, they have to shift their techique and center of balance to a very awkward and uncomfortable level. In a swordfight 99% of the attacks are coming from the opponants midsection\chest level. That's where a swordsman peak center of balance is, standing up, swinging at chest level. The lower fighter still remains in his most efficient stance, swinging at and above his midsection level, whereas the lower fighter has to reach and extend himself downward to fight.

No contest.

 

Well, that doesn't work if both fighters are not in striking distance.

As the "lower" fighter, you either have to move closer to your opponent, leaving you vulnerable in certain circumstances, or jump past him, which isn't possible for a normal human and difficult for a force-user if your opponent is one as well.

 

I think it made sense cause it showed how the dark side is so over confident and arrogant that Vader didnt even realize that what Obi-Wan said was true!

 

not even in striking distance is the 1 on lower ground at an advantage. I have sword fought 1on1 in somethign called SCA soemthing a few may know about. When you get hit in teh legs you go to your knees..in a sense giving the other player the "higher" ground. I can attest that having the lower ground in a 1on1 sword fight is an extreme disadvantage.

Also obi-wan had a clear focused mind. He knew how anakin had to leap over him...he did it to maul after all. And if Maul hadn't been arrogant and clouded with teh darkside from his arrogance he woulda saw what was coming.

 

I must admit, I'm no expert on the technical advantages gained from the high ground in a one-on-one swordfight, but I still thought the line was good.
More than anything it seemed to show circumstances play a big role in determining the outcome of battle; that it's not as simple as "Who is the more powerful Jedi?" The point helps explain how Sidious was able to win (at least strategically) against Yoda, even though the two were (arguably) equally strong. Anakin, in his arrogance, thought that he was powerful enough to win despite any advantage that Obi-Wan's position gave him. This also shows his desire to deal in absolutes, as he thought he was better than Obi-Wan without thought to the circumstances of battle.

 

The high ground thing bothered me too, it didn't make sense.

It should.

From this I always pictured it as Anakin being the one higher up on the slope, giving Obi-wan an easy, clean swipe at his legs.

It is never that easy.

'Higher ground' in battles is kind of a cliche, having higher ground works great if you've actually got an army, and you can rain down arrows, rocks, etc onto your enemy below, but in a one-on-one swordfight, being up higher than your enemy puts you at a clear disadvantage.

You are devestatingly incorrect.

While the advantage is multiplied by the number of people you have, it is always superior to have the high ground.

Think about it. If you're standing directly infront of someone, swordfighting, and their knees are level with your eyes, who has the advantage?

That's the problem, you ARE thinking about it. Which leads me to believe that you have never been in any sort of a fight in your life.

Balance, force (not jedi force, I'm talking physics), momentum are all things that play out in a fight between equally experienced and talented individuals.

The one on the higher ground pushes with natural momentum downward, while the attacker must press against every natural force upwards. It's exhausting to say the least.

The natural inclination, even with years of training, is to backpeddle when shots are being rained from above. One backwards step leads to another to another to another ... balance is lost.

Go to a friend and tell them you are going to get a little rough with them, but you want them to fight back. Now, don't hit them ... just simply take the heel of your palm and drive it into their shoulder. Take a step, and while in motion hit the other shoulder. Keep this up ... they will backpeddle until they hit a wall or fall down. This is an example of momentum and balance in action.

a) the higherup guy can only attack you from above, so rather than defending against a whole range of attacks, you only have to defend against downward blows. Whereas from the lower position, you can swing at his legs at full force, stab upwards, and swinging your sword at a comfortable eye level you can still reach the normal range of midsection attacks.

What type of terrain is this person on? Most gradiants are not nearly as severe as you seem to depict.

But, using your fantasy realm here - you seem to be relying on videogame logic or movie logic rather than true experience or knowledge of physics.

An attack from above, as you put it, will have more power and momentum as you don't fight gravity nearly as much and you movement into the swing is actually momentum building rather than momentum reducing.

Take for instance a shovel. Now, on even ground, you can dig a hole no problem. Now try to dig that same hole, while the hole is on an incline. It's much harder. You can't use gravity to your advantage. You momentum is off. Footing is all wrong. Now ... imagine digging a hole from 1 foot above the hole. Pretty easy right? These principles can be directly attributed to the benefits of higher ground.

Further, while I believe that blocking punches, swords and the ilk is highly overdone in films, it still requires going back to one central theme... BALANCE.

Watch a boxer or a fencer ... they advance and retreat. Move, move, move. Medieval knights were a different animal, but unencumbered fighters move or they just topple each other. But, two trained swordplay artists have to move to parry and attack. Being on the downslope reduces your ability to retreat and still stay in control.

An example would be to walk backwards down a hill. It is a VERY difficult thing to do.

b) In order for someone standing above you to defend *their feet* from your attacks, they have to shift their techique and center of balance to a very awkward and uncomfortable level.

Again, we have been transported to people fighting on cliffs rather than a true gradient.

No contest.

I agree. No contest.

 

I prefer to think that it was something from very early training. I can just see a cocky young Anakin practice dueling with Obi-wan and the latter saying something like "Now Anakin, see how I have placed myself on higher terrain? I am in the superior position. Never attack from the low ground young one, only defend".

Then of course Ani tries it anyway and gets batted down by Obi-wan midair during his training.

But now Anakin is consumed with rage and not willing to be told what to do in the movie duel. I feel Obi-Wan's warning was partly saying "Anakin, I'm still looking out for you". And also partly "I know he's going to try this just because I told him not to and I will have to end this".

Obi-wan was just the more mature Jedi

 

smart military leaders always try and get the higher ground, even in modern warfare today.

it gives you clear visual advantage, stabalises you balance wise and adds more power to your blows.

when on the higher ground your opponent cannot do anything but defend, and i personally do not think anakins sabre defence is that good. to go from anakin relentlessly attacking you to him defending for his life is a battle winning tactic used by obi-wan.

 

For me, I loved the line. It was a great way for Lucas to say "Okay, I'm letting everyone know that this is the end of the duel, so now buckle your safety belts because Vader is going down hard right now." When I heard the line I remember thinking, "okay, here we go."

 

It really proves the difference between the two men. I think its the best part of the actual duel. It really sums it all up.

 

Point battle must end some how.

Movie. Need some last lines of dialogue to prove the tragedy is about to happen.

End Point.

"It's but a mear flesh wound."


Yoda - considering what is at stake you gotta take the leap.

Annakin - Bad tactical situation. All other Jedi are dead. Withdraw come back with more troops.

That is the point. Annakin had the overall leverage which meant retreating is a viable option. Yoda had no leverage and should have approached from a now or never point.

Interesting contrast. What do you think?

 

To date:3 viewings later(and having read Labyrinth of Evil) I found the conclusion of the OWK and Ani fight the weakest part of the movie. Don't get me wrong this movie delivered; however nothing leading up to this duel would have me to believe that Ani/DV would have done nothing less than walk all over OWK. I know that this is not the story and I know GL can simply write he cuts off his arm and two legs in one move but c'mon! This just pissed me off. Anyone have alternate endings. Write then up so I can remember them instead. Even if he(GL) simply had us believe that Ani/DV was still in conflict with the Sith ideals it would have given a reason for his weakness.

Just out of curiosity, can someone tell me one scene through II and III that would have lead you to believe that OWK was a better fighter. I have yet to read the book...does it give more of an explaination to the "higher ground" advantage.

 

Point battle must end some how.

Movie. Need some last lines of dialogue to prove the tragedy is about to happen.

End Point.

Touche!


I'm not sure how else to end this battle.

Have Obi-wan cut an arm off here the fight resumes and leg here and finally his other leg?

Is this really what some people would rather see?

This would have been even more ridiculous than the way people claim this one is, which it is not.

 

> "Anakin Jumped like a mile and then had a problem jumping 10 feet. I really dont think."

Yeah, but before he was only doing a summersault backflip. This time he was cocky and tried the summersault backflip with a twist...

 

I was hoping Anakin/Vader would have said something like this to Obi-Wan as he was walking away:

Anakin/Vader: It's just a flesh wound. Come back here! I'll bite your bloody ankles off!

 

I think the edge/hill/whatever they were on was better portrayed in the Episode III game...the hill was a bit larger, giving the "I have the high ground." statement a little more sense. It is portrayed in the movie well though. Sure, Vader jumped however far/high to land on the droid...but he doesnt need to jump equally as far to jump to Obi-Wan during the duel. He jumps as far as he believes he needs too, unfortunately his cocky jump costed him his legs, arm, and all that good stuff.

 

What I don't see being discussed is if Obi-wan really loved Anakin liked a brother, REALLY loved him, then he wouldn't let him burn.

You don't let someone you love burn for any amount of time. If there was no OT trilogy to contend with, Obi-wan being the true hero, would have put Anakin out of his misery.

As stated in the opening crawl, there are heroes on both sides, and both are flawed.

 

Maybe its just me but why didnt vader just jump off the platform and on to the ground and walked up the hill to obi wan and then fought him......sorry for changing the subjuect though.

 

You take the high-rode and I'll take the low-rode and i'll be in Scotland befooore ye...

 

I'm reminded of when I read The Princess Bride, yes... I know...

Anyway, it goes into a ton of detail on the Inigo/Dread Pirate Roberts duel. Part of what it describes is that Westley (The Dread Pirate Roberts) is an absolute terror at swordfighting on open ground. Inigo is a much more studied duelist and has a major advantage over Westley on rocky or wooded terrain. But Inigo really wants to test himself and ends up losing the duel by fighting on the terrain that plays to Westley's strength.

It was clear that Westley may have had the greater natural ability, he's only studied swordplay for 4 years, yet he is able to hang with and eventually defeat someone who has studied it for 20. But Inigo, being the more experienced, more studied duelist, knew where his own advantage in the fight was...the fact that he didn't take it was his own problem.

The ROTS duel reminds me of this. Obi-Wan knew his advantages. He kept pushing Anakin into very unstable and unfamiliar territory. Anakin was an absolute terror with a lightsaber on open, flat ground. Obi-Wan had to get him away from those wide-open spaces... so he goes onto ledges, pipes, floating robots, and lavafalls...until he finally reaches a position where he has a clear advantage to the fight.

Obi-Wan isn't arrogant or risk-taker enough to try and take on Anakin without having an advantage, unlike Inigo. However, Anakin is definitely arrogant and foolish enough to push his luck by fighting where Obi-Wan's defensive style has the advantage. He just believes in himself that much.

So...Anakin loses.



ps... oh yes, first time/long time... all that rot.

 

IMO, he meant it both metaphorically and literally

Literally he did have the higher ground. Anakin's standing on that thing in the lava while Obi-Wan's on the hill.

Metaphorically he has the higher ground because he is aware of his feelings and can control them, while Anakin is blinded by hatred and the DArk Side. He is morally higher because he knows more about the Force and is a Master...Anakin is still transitioning from Padawan to Jedi Knight.

There's more (I think) and I'm sorry if anyone brought this up before.

 

Why not simply step off the platform, and continue the fight?

 

What really happened: DV jumped so forcefully that his arm came down and cut off his own arm and two legs. Doh!