ST I sense a disturbance in what we think about the force

Homergreg - I think the most important line in the OT was Yoda telling Luke "You must unlearn what you have learned". I think the same held true for Yoda as he worked through why he and the Jedi failed, and I think it holds true today every time someone worries about Rey using abilities without being trained. They mystery of the Force is bigger than the characters understanding of it.

 

It just feels good to be on a board where people can discuss things without people flinging insults at each other. Seems like there are so many out there that think calling each other names somehow reinforces the point they are trying to make.

Thanks everyone.

 

To accuse George of changing the force by introducing midichlorians is certainly anyone's right...but IMO you are a bit confused.

You're argument is akin to saying that Newton ruined the moon when he introduced gravity. Is Michael Jordan any less spectacular given the fact that we know genetics played a part in his athletic ability? Of course not. And guess what. Talent is only part of it. Just like Michael Jordan, if Luke had stayed home on Tattooine and had not been trained as a Jedi, he would never have become a Jedi Master. His midi level would have meant nothing. It's not like a free ride.

Midichlorians are a perfect metaphor for genetic gifts, as well as the spiritual relationship between all living things. It's a deep concept, and by claiming that it somehow takes the spirituality out of the force, you are just showing a misunderstanding of the metaphor.

 

OK, you win. Midichlorians are wonderful. They provide a scientific explanation of how the force is able to get in some beings an not others. I said a couple of posts ago that I wish I hadn't mentioned them. If having Midichlorians in canon to explain the mechanics make people happy, I'm happy.

I'm still glad that the focus appears to be on using the Force, the concept of suspending disbelief. It's been a long time since it's been about "letting go" and failing when you don't believe on the screen. I loved seeing Kylo Ren struggling with understanding. I loved seeing it awaken in Rey. I loved Han saying "It's true, All of it" in direct opposition to his "Mumbo Jumbo" speech so many years ago. I'm happy with the direction it's taken.

 

I'm not one for disregarding what's been done in the prequels and I don't have a major issue with midichlorians, however it would be interesting if at some point in the new films if they hinted that perhaps midichlorians weren't exectly what they thought they were scientifically.

For example, if maybe Finn tested himself and the results were extremely low, however Luke still sensed the force in him and he had it anyway. That would sort of bring the mystery back, and show that even the Jedi a long time ago tried to explain it fully but it was still a little unclear exactly how it worked. They could say that it was a rough guideline that they thought corresponded to one's ability to use the force but it wasn't always consistent.

 

Are you saying that Luke Skywalker is a better basketball player than Michael Jordan?

 

I understand your point.

One of my favorite movies is "Gattaca". It has a line "There is no gene for the human spirit". I really love that line. If you haven't seen Gattaca, from what you say in your post, I would heavily recommend it. Heck, I recommend Gattaca to anyone early and often.

 

Again, nowhere in the PT does it say that having a high midichlorian count results in you being strong in the force. It says those that are strong in the force have a high midichlorian count. That is a big difference. You could be strong in the force because of family connection, but you could also be strong because the force awakens in you or because you take a little bit of ability and train it into something greater. As your ability grows, your count grows. The Jedi Order tested natural ability as a way to decide who to train because they were concerned about controlling force users and making sure that anyone with high natural ability followed their way of thinking about the force.

 

I'm good with the Midichlorians being what they are in canon. They live in force users and they allow for the mechanics of the Force. Let their number rise and fall and do whatever they do to flow the force. But I'm glad that the saga is again about using the Force itself, the concept of suspending disbelief, the successes and failures of those people as they learn to use it.

As far as how Jedi used Midichlorian counts to determine all those things you are mentioning above, all you have to do is watch Gattaca to get my take on all of that.

 

I have the same interpretation. otherwise increase in force power either wouldn't make sense, or the midi's wouldn't matter making them useless (for finding recruits). I always understood it that you are born with a certain number, just like every other life form in the universe, and you increase or decrease due to connection with belief (in yourself can work to, like Anakin in podraces before he knows, but only if you think it is possible). I don't think Yoda was latent as a child, but grew through belief and trust in the balance of the force (life, chi, etc.).

 

I actually like the concept of the midichlorians, A LOT. It was the perfect bridge between science (some people are very strong in the Force because of the midi) and spirituality (you must believe in the Force, otherwise the midi will be blind and deaf).
Rey is strong because of her level of midi and because she's brave and naive (a believer).

 

Surely It's a Combination of Both?

Like you have to have X amount of midichlorians to have a chance of using the force. But to tap into that power you naturally have, you have to believe!! So then you have the "Scientific" Quantifiable numbers AND the Belief aspect as well.

So someone with a high Midichlorian count could go through their whole lives not knowing about the force, or never using it.

 

There's a Pandora's box here if we really want this to be a discussion about Midichlorians. If we really want to talk about them, keeping them as something in the theatrical context of what the force is through episodes VIII and IX, you really have to look at episodes I-III. How was the Jedi practice of screening new members not Eugenics? And was their practice their ultimate downfall? Did the Midichlorians create the chosen one to balance the force twice? Once when he took down the Jedi, and once when he took out the Emperor? Was Eugenics as distasteful to the Midichlorians as it is to society?

Look at Lucas' quote:
"The story being told in 'Star Wars' is a classic one. Every few hundred years, the story is retold because we have a tendency to do the same things over and over again. Power corrupts, and when you're in charge, you start doing things that you think are right, but they're actually not."

If we really must have Midichlorians as part of this story, we have to look at the PT as a cautionary tale of an order that used Eugenics "for good" and ended up collapsing when that practice was exploited by others.

I prefer that it appears that the direction in this trilogy is that the Force is about suspension of disbelief and believing in something one can't perceive through our normal senses. The above is why I really prefer it being that way. I've got no issues about them staying Canon for those who like Canon to be preserved, that's fine, I'll go to the soda shop and drink a Midichlorian shake with anyone who feels that way. But if we need to keep them an important part of the story moving forward, then we've got to carry the weight of Lucas' quote above with them., and we've got to carry the weight of a group who placed extreme importance of the latent count of a biological trait when they plucked children out of their general society to bring them into their Jedi order, with that practice enabling their ultimate downfall.

That's a Pandora's box I really hope is not part of episodes VIII and IX, and better left behind, IMHO.

 

I don't really think that the midichlorian thing is that big of a deal. But I do think we're in for a rethinking not of the force so much but in what a Jedi's role in it is. I was thinking about Yoda on Dagobah: "If you leave now, help them you could, but destroy you will everything they have worked for"

It seemed by the end of ROTJ that Luke had proven Yoda wrong - but in fact, Yoda got proven right. Leia was working to destroy the Empire and restore the Republic. By the end of TFA, the Republic is completely destroyed.

So what was Luke missing in his training? He went into the Force cave and somehow, failed. Later, he refused to fight his father, and appeared ready to sacrifice himself, but Vader made the tough choice to kill himself to kill the Emperor and save Luke.

Luke never really learned to make those tough choices, those choices that dabble in the dark side. Aren't those the choices the Jedi must make? Years later, when Ben Solo, the embodiment of the dark side within Luke, came to him, Luke tried to control Ben and move him toward the light. He failed and his new generation of Jedi were all destroyed.

Maybe the whole 'A Jedi uses his powers for defense, never for attack' is not quite true. I think the real truth is that a Jedi needs to learn about the dark side within them, and control it, and occasionally even use it - without giving into it selfishly. That, perhaps is the difficult dance a Jedi must do, not just be all light side. I mean, Obi-wan killed a lot of people, other Jedi killed even more. How do you kill if you are the embodiment of the light?

I think the 'Balance of the Force' refers to the balance that the Jedi must have within him or herself. To balance on the edge of the light and dark, in ultimate service of the light. You can't do that without learning about and exploring the dark side. The Jedi of the PT era had learned to fear the dark side so much they never learned to control it. They shunned Jedi like Dooku and Anakin that had strong connections to the dark side. Hence, they were out of balance. Instead of tapping into Anakin's potential, they feared him and shunned him, and lost him to the Sith. Did Anakin bring balance to the force by offing Palpatine and redeeming himself? Not really. It's just another piece of the puzzle that Luke and Rey (and perhaps Kylo) need to figure out.

 

LOL

I was thinking more like this:



But I won't judge!

 

I don't understand why people are so mad about 'NO, YOU CAN'T JUST WILL URSELF TO HAVE THE FORCE THAT'S NOT HOW IT WORKS.'

Uh...

...it's a completely made up arbitrary excuse for superpowers. It works in whatever way serves the narrative at the time.

 

The way I thought about it was that it's like how magic seems to work in Harry Potter, some people are born with the ability due to magic being strong in them, or a higher concentration of it. Others are born to long standing families that have the blood in them, still others have a parent that is magical and one that isn't. Same thing with the force and the use of midi's. Some people have a high concentration naturally that let's them use the force, others are born to two force sensitive people and they have a stronger pull to it, still others have a parent that may be force sensitive and the other isn't. The force is something you have to believe in, you have to want it to work for it to work. Just like the magic users have to learn to use their powers and not blow someone up by just thinking about it, so to do force users have to learn to harness the powers and rely on themselves and believe they can do things in order to have it happen.

 

Yeah so I am confused... I didn't think the Force was hereditary yet everyone acts like Luke/Leia/Kylo and any other relative should be strong in the Force because they descend from Anakin. I mean none of the hundreds and thousands of Jedi reproduced so how are there more?

 

The force is hereditary. Just like blond hair. You don't necessarily need to have parents with blond hair as a prerequisite for you to have blond hair.....though it DOES increase the chances of you ending up with blond hair. If everyone in your family has blond hair....chances are....you are gonna have it too. If your Father had the most awesome and spectacular blond hair ever...the chances are even better that you will have very nice blond hair as well....I think the parallel is clear..

Now..substitute the force with blond hair.

 

I'm firmly on the side of Homergreg & kevmp on this one. IMO the force was best when it was left a little vague. As kevmp said, the concept of midichlorians, quantifying the force, removes the mystery & the magic. Wasn't Ben (Kenobi) described in ep 4 as the 'old wizard who lives beyond the Dune Sea' ? I prefer the idea of Jedis being wizards to being super genetically gifted.
Vader was derided by General Tagge (?) for his devotion to the ancient religion-another possible example of how power with the force could be influenced by your self-belief. Also midichlorians would suggest a lot of a Jedi's power comes from within, rather than being drawn fro the external force. "a Jedi's strength flows from the Force"

to answer Big Boss, maybe it will turn out Rey is also exceptionally strong with the force (Anakin levels?). Luke in ANH only needed what was it about 60 seconds training from Obi-Wan, & he could deflect the beams from the remote with the blast-shield down. Ren knows about the Jedi so perhaps she had read up on mind tricks ?

But as Big Boss said, I guess the writers will define the force in whichever way best serves the narrative.

 

That is actually a really good way of looking at that concept, I never thought about that until now.

 

Like it or not, midichlorians are canon, and Rey has tons of midichlorians, Finn has some (above 45% ? ) midichlorians, Han had few...
THAT'S how the Force works, even Han hinted at that
period