PT I think it's time to reveal to the senate that our ability to use the force is diminished."

IMO I think that is probably the most important line of the SAGA.
1. They are basically telling a Sith Lord that "Hey Sidious we are weak and vulnerable."
2. They should have told Anakin that when they put him on the council is that "We know that Palpatine is influenced by a Dark Lord of the Sith who controls the Senate. Don't you think this is a little sketchy?"
3. It makes the public opinion of the Jedi go down.

Thoughts?

 

I certainly think Sidious already knew about that, as he is clouding their vision with the dark side. But it is true their many opponents in the Senate would take advantage of that fact to demonize them some more. Don't have much else to say though.

 

Also it would probably the Senate to lose trust in the Jedi and I imagine they had already lost some. Also, it might cause some to panic.

 

I had to agree with Yoda on that one. Really, Mace? Why would you want to reveal that to the public? Were you being stupid?

 

They aren't because they decided not to tell anything. And if there is anyone who already knows of the Jedi's weakness, it's Sidious.

Why? As Yoda said in AotC: "Do not assume anything. Clear your mind must be (...)"

Why? For being honest?

 

a friend of mine was convinced that Yoda was giving Mace dirty looks whenever he said anything , I think it was just the puppet had a weird expression , but yeah - I don't get why they'd want to tell the senate a thing like that

 

yeah, sidious was the one blocking their abilities and they couldnt have told anakin that because they werent sure that sidious was truly the sith lord... at least that's what i think.

 

1. Darth Sidious already knows that. He's the one making them weak and vulnerable.
2. Anakin has likely heard about Dooku's claim from Obi-Wan. Just because one is not explicitly told to think does not mean that one is not expected to have thought.
3. So...? IMO this is one of the moments when Mace is closest to understanding the original purpose of the Jedi: as guardians of peace and justice, not entangled with the politics of the Republic. If the Jedi are concerned with public opinion of them, then they're behaving like politicians. I'm not saying that it's bad to be a politician, I'm just saying that the Jedi are supposed to be different from them. And thus there's a certain irony in this scene: it's Yoda who mentions that practically, it's more convenient for the Jedi if the Senate is not informed. It's the longstanding tradeoff between transparency and efficiency.

 

His reasoning is sound. If they inform the senate about an internal problem of the Order, it would only increase the amount of enemies that would take advantage of that. It's not like the senate could do anything to solve the dark side problem.

 

I think Mace's line of thought was that by telling the Senate they might show a bit of trust, and it also tells them that they can't see the future so well anymore and that things are unpredictable going forward. I can see his POV on that but Yoda was right about not trusting the Senate I think.

 

Well the public opinion thing is kinda of important to Palpatines plan. So if everyone trusts the Jedi to protect them and keep the and have a 100% approval rating then all of the sudden the Chancellor say's the Jedi tried to over through imagine a senate were everyone loves and trusts them I imagine something like this.

" Palpatine-and the Jedi Rebellion have been foiled."
Random Senator 1." What did you just say. The Jedi have been prospecting us from the separatists and tried to keep the peace on Genossis where over 200 died for our cause and you say they were rebelling."
Random Senator 2 " I agree this is outrageous. I move for a vote of no confidence in Chancellor Palpatine. "Loud Applause.." The Jedi are the wisest beings in the galaxy>"
Shouts in the background Vote Now Vote Now.."
Random Senator 3. "TRAITOR.''


Kinda anti climatic don't ya think? See if the pubic opinion of the Jedi was low it would be easy to make the senate think they tried to overthrow the republic which makes it easy to wipe them out.

 

In my opinion, Mace is so attached to the Republic that he thinks it is his duty to tell the Senate about their weakness. But Yoda is right, only the Dark Lord of the Sith knows of their weakness and if they tell the Senate, they would multiply their enemies. Mace thinks it is the right thing to do as a server of the Republic, but he is clearly wrong.

 

This is all Mace's fault.

 

Palpatine seemed to test the Jedi with their meetings in AOTC and ROTS.

He asked questions to gauge what the Jedi knew, especially about the future and they didn't know anything or couldn't see the future. Palpatine knew he was slowly winning.

 

Exactly. If the Jedi could see the war through the Force, they could try to prevent it. That's why he particularly asks Yoda if there's going to be a war, to which Yoda replies that the dark side is clouding his ability to see into the future.

 

I initially read this as "I think it's time to real estate that our ability to use the Force is diminished."

Finals are clearly getting to me.

 

Disagree with the first statement. This is one of the key scenes in AOTC, but it is so subtle, that few people understand that it is one of the most important. The Jedi ORder is in front of a very hard test. They are keepers of the peace and somewhere somebody is breeding an army saying that this army is ordered by the Jedi Order. So clearly they have made some big mistake not to know about that. So Mace Windu is right. And they fail in that test because they don’t choose the Jedi way (to admit this mistake and to be humble) but the Sith way, because they hide those facts with the purpose not to loose their status and power in the society. So Sith, right? The most ironic thing is that here the wise Yoda decide that and not Mace Windu who is always more concentrated to keep the positions of the Jedi Order. I would say even that this is moment when the Jedi Order falls in the Palpatine's trap because they accept his game.

 

Someone is using the dark side to cloud their vision and actively working against them in secret, and somehow this is a Jedi mistake?! Please explain.

1. There's no mistake on their part.
2. They hide their inability to see into the future because such information would only hurt the Republic more.

What?! Where does that come from?

They can't accept something they have no knowledge of. Not to mention that Palpatine's game is to leave no choice to the Jedi. Again, not the Jedi's fault.

 

No, no, the Republic has nothing to do with it. It is their Order which eventually would be 'harmed' (but it is not sure), not the Republic. Yoda said exactly that: If informed, the Senate is, multiply, our adversaries will. These adversaries are the foes of the Jedi Order, not of the Republic. As we see in ROTS, there enough proofs that the Order is concerned for its own future in the Republic. So in ROTS they begin playing political games, even cheating and spying the Chancellor (not that he is not suspicious, but this is not the Jedi way). But everything began here with this at first sight harmless secret.
After all, the Jedi their selves disagree with your opinion about the fault because both Yoda and Mace feel guilty for not SENSING (not knowing) this issue.

And why you are asking me why Mace Windu is always considered about the positions of the Jedi Order? It is clear form ROTS, but even here in this movie is seen that he has the big responsibility for the future of the Jedi Order. In the first scene in Palpatine's office he exposed the problem of the eventual splitting of the republic and would be the position of the Jedi Order in it. I have never said that this is always a bad thing, I just was a little surprised that indeed Yoda proposed something that in my opinion is more typical for Mace.

 

The Jedi serve the Republic and are its first line of defense. Their enemies are Republic enemies.

No, they are concerned about its survival. The concern for the survival of their order and the Republic are not mutually exclusive.

What exactly is not the Jedi way? If there's something out of place, it is the Jedi way to investigate it. Besides (and as stated), the Jedi serve the Republic and its senate, not its leader.

Its revelation is not harmless. It has harmful consequences and the Jedi know it.

They feel blind, not guilty.

No, it's not. Hence the question.

He's explaining what the Jedi are and what they aren't. Keepers of the peace, not soldiers. And in the event of a full-scale war, there aren't enough Jedi to protect the Republic.

He's not discarding anything or anyone at the expense of the Jedi Order. That's a strawman.

He proposed something for the benefit of the Republic.

 

Where you see "the most important moment in the entire Saga", I see two characters acting out of character - at least within the context of the trilogy, not necessarily AOTC itself.
Mace is "the grim one" in I, and in III he's the one more enthusiastic about pushing the Jedi into pragmatism, to save the future - here, he's the idealist and Yoda the pragmatist.



Where you see an explanation of why the Senate got indoctrinated against the Jedi, I see ROTS' failure to show and explain the Senate's perspective properly.

They believe that the Jedi were eager to take over, not that they were too weak and honest and idealistic to protect them.


In a general, diffuse sense, that scene IS a pivotal moment as it's the beginning of the Jedi conspiring in dark rooms and moving away from their idealism (which wasn't necessarily established priorly, but can be assumed as a given) - however, this concrete decision, to keep their clouded vision secret from the public, leads nowhere in 2 or 3 as far as I'm aware of.

 

How exactly are you sure that what is good for the Jedi Order is always good for the Republic? It is your point of view, OK, but not theirs. If you are right then Mace is proposing something against the Republic, but why? I mean staying consciously against the Republic is not something that Mace would initiate and he never did that. And after all, it not proved anywhere in the movie that this is something against the Republic or in favor of it. It is something related to the Jedi Order. And speaking about that, one more example of ROTS: 'I sense a plot to destroy the Jedi. The Dark Side of the Force surrounds the Chancellor'. said Mace before going to inform Palpatine about Griveous. Nothing about the Republic here. If the Republic was the problem, he would just said it: ‘I sense a plot to destroy the Republic’. It is even a more noble cause to fight. So not everything related to the Jedi Order is connected to Republic issues, this is pure speculation.
And this example is also a proof why I think that in ROTS Mace is the one concerned about the existing of the Jedi Order, by the way. It is not the only one , but it is a good one.

And you didn't understand me at all for the -AT FIRST SIGHT- harmless secret. I didn't mean the revelation of the army itself; I meant not informing the Senate about the fact that they didn't sensed or knew about the army. Because everybody in the Senate knew about the existing of the army after a while, but almost nobody knew that this army was made in secret of the Jedi Order, it looks like detail (but it is not!) regarding to the fact of its existing and the opportunity to use it.

You said something very strange: they feel blind not guilty. How exactly is possible to FEEL blind? They said that they were blinded, so this is a mistake they made. And why I say they feel guilty apart from the obvious thing that the last thing that one leader could do is to be blinded, he/she is the leader to see and foresee the things? I think the non-verbal reaction of Mace shows it. He sighed as guilty or disappointed man.

 

On the contrary I think Yoda might be the one who has to live with the responsibility of having Mace dissuaded from telling everybody the truth.

What would have happened? Most likely the Jedi would not have been put in charge of the clone army but other people. Already that could have perhaps saved the Jedi Order from becoming extinct.

I don't know, maybe the Saga is also about the tragedy of Master Yoda?

 

How exactly is he proposing something against the Republic. The Jedi are the guardians of peace and justice in the Republic. If the amount of enemies increases and takes advantage of them, how exactly does that benefit the Republic? It doesn't. It only affects it even more.

Of course it's something against the Republic, as I've explained above.

Which affects the Republic by extension.

As I've said on my previous post: The concern for the survival of their order and the Republic are not mutually exclusive. The fact that he's concerned about the survival of the Jedi Order doesn't mean lack of concern for the Republic. Not to mention that the destruction of the Jedi would negatively affect the Republic.

Who said the Republic was the problem?

Every Jedi is concerned about the existence of the Jedi Order. You said that "Mace Windu is always more concentrated to keep the positions of the Jedi Order", and that's what I was arguing.

I know what you meant, I didn't misunderstood you. They were talking about their ability to see into the future, which has been affected due to the dark side. That made them unable to see the creation of the army. My argument is that they were right in not informing the senate, since to reveal such information would affect them and the Republic.

Are you serious?

Again, it's not a mistake, let alone theirs. If I break into your house and rob it while you're at work, would you say it was your mistake?

Your setence doesn't make any sense.

 

My favorite argument. It is useless to talk, then.