CT I wish “MACLUNKY!” just replaced Greedo shooting at all

Lucas has stated, he wanted Han to wait for Greedo to shoot first, since he's a John Wayne type character, so it's definitely not a strawman. It's what Lucas wanted when he created the SE. As far as your reaction time argument is concerned, I guess you never saw the 1997 version. In that version Han even has time to move his head, to dodge Greedo's shot, so your reaction time argument makes no sense either.

The western shootout trope has two duellists going for their gun at the same time, where the fastest is the winner, and the slowest in a dead man. If this were a western trope, Han would be dead, since he stupidly waits for the other guy to shoot first.

 

No it isn't a "straw man". It's exactly the (ridiculous) rationale that GL used for the change.


Because I was thinking mythologically—should he be a cowboy, should he be John Wayne? And I said, "Yeah, he should be John Wayne." And when you're John Wayne, you don't shoot people [first]—you let them have the first shot. It's a mythological reality that we hope our society pays attention to.

 

It's been a long time since I've seen the 1997 version, but since that version was superseded 16 years ago it doesn't really matter. But out of curiosity, how long is the interval between shots in that version?

That's nice. He doesn't literally mean John Wayne waits for others to shoot. I take that quote to mean as the storyteller has the other shoot first, not the character.

 

Lol. Uuuuuh, OK.

 

I don't know, but long enough for Han to go shopping, and be back in time to shoot Greedo. You can check it out here:

That would not make any sense, since Lucas made the change to highlight Han's noble character. If it was just from the storyteller's perspective it wouldn't change a thing from the character's perspective, since Greedo shooting first would be accidental, or divine intervention, not because of a moral choice by the character.

 

That doesn't make any sense. This "Lucas made the change to highlight Han's noble character" isn't how I said I interpret Lucas' statement, so that's entirely in your imagination. And yeah, obviously, it doesn't change a thing from the character's perspective, which is what several people as far as I can see have been arguing here.

 

It’s just dumb. Even dumber than the stormtroopers missing, at least they are caught unaware most of the time.

I was watching return of the Jedi this morning and the scene where Leia shoots those two stormtroopers by the bunker near the end makes Leia a cold blooded killer! The stormtroopers only told them to get up and stand up and Leia kills them finally earning fellow psychopath Han Solos love.
Lucas should have made the two stormtroopers shoot first!

 

Here's Lucas' entire quote:

"Han Solo was going to marry Leia, and you look back and say, 'Should he be a cold-blooded killer? Because I was thinking mythologically -- should he be a cowboy, should he be John Wayne?" Lucas added, "And I said, 'Yeah, he should be John Wayne.' And when you're John Wayne, you don't shoot people (first) -- you let them have the first shot. It's a mythological reality that we hope our society pays attention to."

Lucas is clearly speaking from the perspective of the mindset of the character. Is Han a cold blooded killer? No, says Lucas, he's like John Wayne, and he lets the other guy shoot first. He as in the character, who is like John Wayne, not Lucas the writer, who doesn't see himself as John Wayne. If it doesn't change a thing from a character's perspective, why would Lucas feel Han is a cold blooded killer, if he shoots first? Why does he worry about him marrying Leia with that stain on his record? The character is a cold blooded killer, or not. The character is John Wayne, or not. All this hinges on the character letting Greedo shoot first, or not. Sorry, but you're totally off-base here. This is not open to interpretation.

 

Your answer makes very little sense.
DrDre didn't suggest that you interpreted the scene that way, rather that your interpretation of the "storyteller..." makes no sense given Lucas clear motivation as to why he changed the scene.
And DrDre did not make it up, it is right here;

Lucas is talking about Han Solo the character and he says that he is a John Wayne type character and as such, Han would not shoot first, he would let the other person shoot first.
So Lucas IS trying to get across a character trait of Han Solo, namely that he does not shoot first.
And this would majorly impact his character, as has been shown again and again.
If Han is so noble and honorable that he will wait for the other person to shoot before shooting back then him deciding to come back and save Luke is not at all surprising, it would be rather expected for such a noble guy to act in this way.
Also, Han waiting for other people to shoot first is rather suicidal and a bit moronic.
Plus, as has also been said, Han shoots first at other times in the film so him letting Greedo shoot first is not consistent with how he otherwise acts. Plus it looks bad and is stupid for Han to let a guy that is this close have the first shot.

Bye.
Old Stoneface

 

As I pointed out, Leia shooting first in ROTJ is what actually causes him to finally admit he loves her. She snuck the blaster out just like he did in ANH but this time she kills two people! John Wayne would not approve of Leia doing this. The stormtroopers only ever told them to get up, stand up and they had only shot Leia in the shoulder which she admitted was “not bad”. Leia impresses Han by being the back alley sneaky resourceful survivor who knows how to get herself out of a sticky situation and while wounded no less! Enough so that he finally breaks down and admits his love for her.

 

No, he's not "clearly" speaking from the perspective of the character, and this isn't "not open to interpretation." Most importantly of course is that it's irrrelevant; the scene hasn't looked like that in 16 years.

 

Then please explain Lucas' remark "Han Solo was going to marry Leia, and you look back and say, 'Should he be a cold-blooded killer?". If the change doesn't affect the character as you claim, and is only from the perspective of the writer, why would Greedo not shooting turn Han into a cold blooded killer? How does a change, that turns Han from a cold blooded killer into John Wayne not affect the character? Lucas clearly doesn't want Han to be a cold blooded killer, but a John Wayne type, hence the change. I don't see how that is open to interpretation. The remark, that it's been 16 years is deflecting the argument, and irrelevant to the discussion. In any case it's been 22 years. That too is not open to interpretation.

 

Disclaimer: I grew up with the 1997 version. I'm fine with Greedo shooting first. I'm fine with him arrogantly uttering a (second) threat before pulling the trigger now. Yet from an editing standpoint I feel like all of this bickering could have been avoided if GL had left the scene mostly as it was and merely superimposed Greedo raising his arm & blaster into center frame (towards Han's chest / head) as the camera is on him saying "I've been looking forward to this for a long time." Probably would have been a increasingly easy special effect to do in '96/'04/'12, would have clearly shown Greedo was about to kill Han and Han being a faster gunslinger than Greedo. But hindsight is 20/20.

 

the scene just plays awkward/unnatural now. sometimes you can tinker too much with something.

 

I think the edit looks looks awkward and was unneeded too. I didn't even understand what was happening when I first saw it..

While it never mattered much to me who shot first, I get that for some people it takes a certain edge away from Han in a notable cool scene, and it's not really the same as shooting stormtroopers or other henchmen in the way. It's this calmer, one-to-one scene that has these two guys talking, threatening, trying to bargain, and then almost mid-sentence one of them drops dead.

But I might argue that how Han acts in this casual-as-hell way says more about his character than the shooting order does. "Sorry about the mess." (Tosses money to bartender on his way out). Business as usual, just another day for Han Solo.

 

Haha. Excellent observation. They were made for each other because she was just like him.

 

Leia is the best shot with a blaster in all of Star Wars. She rarely misses. And she always hits her mark the second shot. She shoots a stormtrooper in the first few minutes of the movie. When Luke hands her a blaster so he can get out his grabbling hook you see what a better shot she is. It's like that for all the movies. Even TLJ when Leia shoots Poe.