Imperial Empire or Rebel Alliance. WHICH side was RIGHT or WRONG discussion/argue thread

Here's a good topic in which we or should I say "I" can see the different point of views. First off, here's a little something that I think about "Rebels".

Note that "Rebels" tend to be bad people. Those anti-technology people during the Vietnam war were Rebels they were called the Kamer Rouge or something, were they right, NOPE. KKK are Rebels, are they right, NOPE. Neo-Nazis aka Skin Heads are Rebels, are they right, NOPE. I'm pretty sure there are more Rebellion groups that were WRONG.

Now a little something on Imperials.

I think that the galaxy is far better off when under Imperial rule. Yes, the Imperials were anti-alien. But with this price all humans under Imperial rule get peace and protection from the ever powerful Imperial forces.

And FINALLY, the modern SW galaxy.

Look at what the galaxy is like during the NJO. It obviously sucks because of the Vong. If the ever picky Rebel Alliance didn't put an end to Imperial rule, the people of the galaxy would have had a very large military to take on and perhaps take down the Vong. Now the New Republic must take on another Empire. The difference this time is that the Vong Empire is a lot more twisted and bent on the destruction of other races. Unlike the Imperial Empire who gave some remorse for other races by leaving them with their planets and their lives. Though they may be in enslavement, at least they still had their lives.

OK, I think I'll stop here for now and make my exit. I'll check in tommorow night ET to see what kind of responses I may get with these mild rantings.

In the great words of the great Metal band Slayer...

"GOD HATES US ALL"

NOTE : For you religious folks who may take "offence" by that comment please direct all your complaints to the band that created it, . Though, the band is going to care even less about what you say more then I do.

 

You say peaceful and protected, I say people lived in fear.

And as for the anti-alien thing, I realize you're Canadian Ceifer, so you may not know (or care, and I wouldn't blame you) about American history, so I have a different take on it. I guess being raised in a society based upon liberty makes me think that chaotic but free is better than peaceable but repressed. It's the same thing as racism. All men are created equal, no matter what the color of their skin, or in the GFFA, the number of tentacles.

 

Quotes from DS's post:

1."I guess being raised in a society based upon liberty makes me think that chaotic but free is better than peaceable but repressed. It's the same thing as racism."

DS where do you get that equation from?

Chaos = Free, Peace = Repression

It is more accurate to say:

Chaos = Anarchy, Free = Life, Peace = The Good Life

2."And as for the anti-alien thing, I realize you're Canadian Ceifer, so you may not know (or care, and I wouldn't blame you) about American history, so I have a different take on it."

The actual order of your coments is 2 followed by 1, which is unfortunate, because reading them in that order makes your implied insult pretty clear. Point 1, is a prfectly valid argument, but with 2 attached before and in tandem with it, insult enters the fray and it isn't needed, you do your post a disservice.

I actually agree with your line of the populace living in fear and your general argument, it's the phrasing only of a needless section that I criticize.

Now as to the topic itself:

Which Empire are we talking of:

The Palpatine/Vader regime?
Thrawn's Adjusted Version?
Pellaeon's Imperial Remnant?

These are three variants, each different and distinct, I would say:

Palpatine: A totalitarian system that deprived people of life, that was evil to the core and had to be fought once it became clear that horrific measures were taken against moderate protests.

Thrawn: More authoritarian, with a lesser alien bias but the same absolute utilitarianist viewpoint e.g. the attempts to give Leia and Han's kids to C'Boath. Less repressive it may have been but Thrawn's Empire was still amoral and evil.

Pellaeon: The only alternative Empire, you give up total freedom and have faith in the government to provide security. It is not repressive and is only different from the NR due to it's lack of elections. Or greater degree of order, which given how the NR is might be tempting.

The problem with the SW dichotomy of NR / Empire, Freedom / Security is it does not allow other possibilities. An example i real life is free speech:

The US and UK both have free speech but:

US: Say what you like without consequences.
UK: Say what you like but there might be consequences and you might be responsible for them.

The Uk does not have repression but it does recognise there are limits, the limit being that to every positive right there is often a negative. The freedom to speak has to be tempered with the freedom to live life free from harassment and intimidation, which unlimited free speech can be said to allow. Some Americans say that is free speech, but others, I am sure, will see it as an abuse of free speech, it is only the libertarians that have a high profile. Similarly, if one insults someone in a bar then a smash in the face can be considered as earnt. Most would probably agree but there are always the libertarians around.

So it is with the NR:

If Mon Mothma or Leia had ever tried to introduce order to enhance the NR, the Bothans and others would have objected on the freedom ground and sunk the idea, regardless of what other, more reasonable NR members may have liked. It is possible to have both freedom and security, free speech without harming anyone, all it requires is a system of mutual respect for the needs of both self and others, with neither need superior to the other. It is my hope NJO will shgow this to be possible given the final fate of the NR.

Jedi Ben

 

Oh, sure, Destiny Skywalker, Canadian government is sooo much much less free than ours.

Okay, I do see what you're saying about history... but really, these days Canadian and American outlook on life and liberty is about the same. Really.

 

Here's an overly-simplistic rationalization I've come up for this kinda (Was the Empire really evil?) debate. Though I can't see why anyone's bothering to debate what should be obvious from the movies, the novels, the comics, and GL's own words.

The Empire starts with the letter E.
The word Evil starts with the letter E.
Coincidence, I think not.

 

Empiers in all of sociaty have tended to be harsh and rule absolutly.

In the case of star wars I look at the Empire as a unitary government that does not give certain speciaes and woman rights. Why they do this I dont know. But I like the Empire.
I hate the Emperor.
Palpitine is a montorous villian who is corrupt and racist.

However the Empier did leave a huge affect at the galaxy in good ways. We must remember even without Palpitine the Republic was growing corrupt and selfish.
What the Empire did was force a unitary ni-noncense government on the Galaxy.
This drew many people to it who wanted a fresh start.

Only over a period of time did the emperor declare aliens and wemons rights much lower then Human males.

This lead young people and old to form a rebellion to start a rebellion against the evil of the empier.

However these rebals caused great havock to many businesses and inicent people with their constant raids.

Further more the Empire is good, and the Emperor is Bad.

 

Imperial Empire. Is there another kind of Empire.

(if anyone replies to this saying a nonimperial empire then I shall crush, kill and indeed destroy. Or I may just congratulate tham on making an unoriginal joke, their choice)

 

Indeed. The Imperial Empire or the Rebel Rebellion. Take your pick.

Incidentally, the formal names are Galactic Empire and Alliance to Restore the Republic (renamed the Alliance of Free Planets, then the New Republic).

 

'k. I'm going to have to go with the existentialists in this one.

 

Rebelling Rebellion sounds better.

Or maybe the Revolting Rebellion?

 

It's a tough question, made tougher by the way Lucas (and his companies) have handled it.

Back with the original films there was no doubt, it was explicity stated as being "the Evil Galactic Empire" and you had the torturing of Leia and the destruction of Alderaan.

But since then there has been rather a lot of pro-Imperial arguements...

Sure, the Empire enslaved Wookies- BUT the decay of the Old Republics ability to enforce the law allowed slavery to exist (Anakins situation-TPM).

Sure, the Empire was ruled by one man who was not legally accountable- BUT at least that meant the goverment wasn't paralised by political infighting (Vong invasion (and many other novels)).

Sure, the Empire repressed non-human races and constrained their independence- BUT at least that put an end to the bloody wars over centuries old quarrels (HoT Duology).

Sure, the Empire levelled high taxes to pay for a huge military- BUT at least piracy, smuggling, and illegal planetary invasions were prevented (Han Solo trilogy (first two) and Trade Federation invasion of Naboo).

...so gradually via the novels and TPM they have shown examples of how corrupt the Old Republic had become and how corrupt the New Republic became, all of which by lessening the moral high ground of the Republics raised the Empire by comparision.

However the Rebel Alliance was right for one simple reason- Dark Empire.
Under many circumstances an Empire can gradually relax as small reforms build on each other. As people grow up under the system and accept it as normal the levels of repression can be relaxed and more power can be shared between the peoples (thinking vaguely perhaps of the Romans).

BUT Palpatine was immortal, he could transfer himself from clone to clone and rule the Empire for ever. The Empire would always be shaped by his will, by his desires, and so could never be reformed or redeemed as long as Palpatine lived.

Therefore as there was no hope of reshaping the Empire from the inside into a better system with gradual reform the only alternatives were armed Rebellion (or assassiation which would only have caused a backlash).

(God, I'm going to get my arse kicked by the real SW fanatics now )

 

These NR vs. Empire threads are getting old. There are so many arguments that go either way. But which side is right/wrong and good/evil? It depends. How do you define "evil", that's the most important part. My def. goes like this:

"Evil is the act where you advance your own self-interests with no regard for others."

In this sense the NR was evil, just as the Empire was. Maybe not on the same degree in terms of casualties and such, but they were still evil. Forget the destruction of Alderaan-the death of the Death Star(s) probably cost at least half as many lives. And don't use the "self-defense" argument-the DS was just a defensive weapon as the Rebel's X-wings and Y-wings were.

When discussing what kind of government is best I always think that the people should decide. If the people want the NR, they should get an NR. If they want an Empire, they should get one. Of course this all goes back around to say that since people want to govern themselves they'd want a republic, but some people do prefer Imperial doctrine. Judging from all the parties at the end of ROTJ:SE I'd say that those people are in the minority. And that's why NR is justified-majority rules.

I'm a staunch defender of individual rights and I hate prejudice, but those are just my opinions. Doesn't make me "good" or "evil." Things like evil are merely either human inventions or something that resides in all of us, because face it, we're all selfish to some degree.

 

A lot of you people have made really good replies. Looking up at my opinions above I don't exactly agree with them right now. Most of the time my thoughts are an at the moment thing. Hmm, this could be the reason why I don't agree with my past opinions. Then again, I am tired, so this could be the reason why as well. I think I'll go to bed now cause I'm too tired to tell a different opinion.

 

In many cases in RL, the people the rebels are trying to bring down are often better than the rebels themselves, and when/if the rebels get in power, there are often revolts to get the monarch back! This happened in France. Then they chucked him out and got Napoleon. Then they chucked him out etc etc...
Rebels tend to be how Lt Renz (the guy in ROTJ) descrives them as...'rebel scum'

 

I bet the Galactic Empire would have done better had it been someone with Thrawn's leadership ability, Dalla's lack of prejudice towards women and non-humans, and Palpatine's personal power. This leader, in my opinion, would have been perfect to rule the Empire. With the Empire's resources back then, I bet this leader could have defeated the Yuuzhan Vong. Maybe even if Thrawn or Palpatine were leading.