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Gaming In a grim dark far future there is only war - A thread for Warhammer 40k

Discussion in 'Community' started by Gamiel, May 23, 2020.

  1. Mira Grau

    Mira Grau Force Ghost star 5

    May 11, 2016
    Certianly some intresting ideas.

    Think this is probably the solution that makes the most sense to me currecntly.
    Actually at this point considering to make them a mixed genseed chapter, wich is actually something that exsits within the lore, using both WS and TS genseed thus being a true hybrid.
    Iron_lord likes this.
  2. Gamiel

    Gamiel Chosen One star 9

    Dec 16, 2012
    Just some thoughts I had regarding Thousand Sons successor that have nothing with @Anedon concept.

    Since it's established that many of the first generation successor took their names after the cognomen/name/symbol of a Legion Chapter, special forces, company, or their Chapter Master, one of the things that people that want to make a loyal traitor successor could do is to copy that. Either because they were created just after the Horus Heresy, or if Ultima Founding: because of some esoteric reason, or because Belisarius Cawl think he is clever.

    When it comes to the Thousand Sons so did they have their cult system, among others, with the Athanaeans, Corvidae, Raptora, Pavoni, and Pyrae. Here are their symbols:

    Now, my thought is regarding the Corvidae and the Pyrae and is based on their symbols.

    The Corvidae's symbol is a raven (unsurprisingly), and that's a symbol of knowledge in Old Nordic mythology (possibly in other places but the Old Nordic is the one I know of) and Oden, who (among other things) was a powerful wizard and master of the runes, had two ravens as companions. So a fun idea for a Thousand Sons successor is to give them a Viking/Germanic theme, with a focus on the mystical/magical/clerical part of those cultures and their pop-cultural & neo-pagan interpretations, plus lots of raven references.

    When it comes to the Pyrae so do it seems (to me at least) that their symbol a phoenix, and the combination of phoenix and mystics (which the TS was/are) directly leads to me thinking of the Phoenix Clan from Legends of the 5 Rings - a Samurai Japan inspired fantasy setting. There the Phoenix Clan is known as scholars, shugenja (wizard-priests), and the use of fire spell-prayers; also they have a specialized group of shugenja who when tainted by the settings evil god’s Taint either agonizingly die, or get the Taint removed as they are twisted in mind and body into Nameless Ones, with little of the memories of who they ones were but notable powerful when it comes to spell-prayers and a hatred toward Tainted creators which they attack mercilessly. This would translate into a Thousand Sons successor that is use some Japanese terms (f.ex. Chapter-Master = Shogun; Librarian = shugenja) and Samurai-era thinking, unusually many Librarians, has mostly fire based psychic-powers, and (since they are TS successors) their Librarians have a tendency to mutate into abominations - with some of those mutated still being able to function in combat but now looking inhuman beneath their armour and not being mentally fully there.
    Last edited: Jun 11, 2020
    Anedon likes this.
  3. Mira Grau

    Mira Grau Force Ghost star 5

    May 11, 2016
    That´s defenetly a few intresting ideas, @Gamiel Thanks:)
    Tough not really what I´m looking for, so decided to put up what I have so far.

    The Crimson Scourge


    Though officially claiming to be WS succesors at least half of their geenseed of the Crimson Scourge is actually Thousand Son´s in origin. Their chapter name paying homage to Magnus´s title of "Crimson King" while Scourge ewokes the Scars. The CS knows, or at least the higher ups do that their geenseed isn´t just Scars alone but they are generally very vague on this and tend to send the more stable, Scar´s descendant geenseed in their regular tithe to the Imperium.
    In therms of their primach they worship Jagatai Kahn, but instead of using his name they generally call their primach "the broken" or even "lost one" wich of course could apply to the missing Kahn but also to Magnus.
    Their homeworld is called Sarkand and is located in segmentum Ultima, and its kind of a weird mix between Prospero and Mundus Planus/Chogoris, as it houses several beautifull cities that are a heaven of culture, learning and knowledge(and probably as nice of a place to life as it can be in the Imperium of Man), while the rest of the planet is made up of endless stepps where nomadic tribes of barbaric, yet honorable, warriors life, locked into constant conflict with each other. The Scourge recuits from both of these places and there tends to be quite a bit of rivalries between the tribal and "civilized" recuits, tough usually these rivalries are gone once the Astartes leave the rank of Scouts.
    Their Chapter Master bears the title of Gurkan which in an Ancient, long forgotten Terran tongue means "son in law" wich is another subtle hint to their relationship with the WS and TS. Their captains bear the title of "Amir" instead of Kahn. Though as with the WS their honor guard are known as Keshiks.

    Some miscellaneous facts on them:
    -The chapter, just like most Space Marines, does not consider the emperor a god but instead the greatest human being to have ever exsisted
    -They tend to have a much higher number of various specialists(Apothecaries, Scriptors and, to a lesser extend Caplains and Tech Marines) than most other Space Marine chapters, and its noted that most of them hail from the "civilized" recuits while the tribals make up the main warrior body and most of the command elements
    -They tend to be cruel to their enemies and pretty mercylessly in pursiut of their goal, with one major exception, arists and scientists amongst their enemies are spared and instead brought to Sarkand to join the academies there and teach new generations. They also maintain a number of quasi rememberancers amongst their fleets to imortalize their victories
    -According to some unconfirmed reports the Scourge does occasionally take Xenos prisoners to get a better understanding of their enemies, wich of course if somewhat unusual but not unheard of in the empire
    -They encouradge a greater level of freethink amongst their number and the people of their homeworld than many imperials would like to see, thus the first rule every child on Sarkand learns is how to hide their true toughts in the presence of imperial officials. Their close relationship with the Scars and impressive battle record also help keeping the Inquistion of their backs
    -they tend to have poor relations with the Imperial Church and the Sistsers of battle as they see them as supersitious fools, wasting valuable rescources that could be used better in defense of the Imperium(tough of course they are smart enought to not say so openly). They have good relationship with the WS and their succesors as well as the Blood Ravens and Grey Knights in accordance to some "ancestral kinship" via their thousand sons geenes. Also due to having participated in the search of STCs several times they also tend to get along pretty well with the Adeptus Mechanicus.
    -they are one of the few imperial factions that are willing to consider in engadging in diplomacy with Xeno´s races, tough this is either to fight an even greater threat or simply to get into a better position to strike.
    -they have an almost unreasonable hatred of Space Wolves and there are more than one occasion when they have refused to aid the wolves or even done something in an attempt to sabotage them. They also fully sided with the Inquistion during the crisis on Fenris.
    -they welcome Guilimane and his attempts to enlighten the imperial society with open arms, believing that humanity is finally moving forewards again and the coming of new knowledge and technology are the best way to save their race

    Some famouse Battles they engadged in:
    Tylis 4: Facing a Large Orc Waaaaahg that included a larger number of Squigoths than usual the third company of the Scourge came up with an unusal way to defeat them. Aquiring a few tanks from a allied guard regiment they filled them to the brink with Promethium set it on fire and then send the buring tanks towards the Orcis lines, causing the Squiggoth´s to panicm turn around and trample the orcs allowing the Guard to advance on their distracted enemies while the Marines flanked the Ocrish forces on their bikes and Rhinos attcking the in the flanks and rear to ensure none would escape.

    Oshean: Battling the Tau the Scourge managed to several break the ememy forces appart by targetting their allies and auxillary forces, leaving deliberatly posioned corpses for the Kroot mercenaries while their Scouts took down Vespid Queens throwing the Insectoids into chaos. When the tide began to turn against the Taun the Scourge even manadged to "convince" some of the Guevessa units to defect back to the imperium, tough to prove their loyality each returning soldiers had to bring the heads of several Tau/Kroot/Vespid/Human Collaborators to prove their loyality, or they would be executed. Those who manadged to bring the heads where allowed to rejoin the imperial penal battalions to be used as cannon fodder in coming campaigns. The gathered skulls where placed in great pillars on the world, as a warning to the Tau about what would happen if they returned to imperial space again.

    And yes they are heavily based on the Timurids, but I think that actually fits quite well as a mix between the Persian inspired TS and Mongol WS.
    Gamiel likes this.
  4. Gamiel

    Gamiel Chosen One star 9

    Dec 16, 2012
    @Anedon your image seems to be broken
  5. Mira Grau

    Mira Grau Force Ghost star 5

    May 11, 2016
    Hm I can see it both on my computer as well as my phone without problems.

    LAJ_FETT Tech Admin (2007-2023) - She Held Us Together star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    May 25, 2002
    Can't see it either.
  7. Gamiel

    Gamiel Chosen One star 9

    Dec 16, 2012
    Thanks :)

    Interesting. I have looked at this thread on two different machines and can't see it.

    Regarding the Crimson Scourge:
    * first of: it's a nice concept, and nice to see the Timurids used as inspiration.
    * any idea about how they handle the Flesh Change? Since they are not Ultima Founding can't you say that Belisarius Cawl have done some tampering with their gene-seed that has, for now, stabilised them. Have they done some of their own gene-manipulation, and if so, what unforeseen consequence have that lead to? (You can't have nice things in 40k after all). Suggest taking a look at how the Blood Angles and their successors differently treat their brothers that have fallen to the Black Rage.
    * May I suggest adding something where Crimson Scourge following their ways have brought tragedy to themselves or the Imperium. I fully admit I'm not that good with this with my own ideas (we all want our own Chapter/Regiment/other being the one that are overall nice, can work with the good xenos, are not too dogmatic, try to fix the problems of the Imperium, and/or similar) but 40k is full of stories about Chapters that followed their ways and that it brought tragedy in some instances. I can give some suggestions if you want.
    * Suggest making some points about their Librarian (or what they are called) culture and how it looks, since they likely have lots of extra/specialised training/rituals to try to prevent them from starting the Flesh Change, and the hermetic tradition of the TS combined with the more Shamanistic tradition of the WS, combined with ca. 10.000 years of their homeworld's culture influencing them could lead to something a bit different than neither the TS, the WS or the Codex standard Librarian.
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2020
    Anedon likes this.
  8. Mira Grau

    Mira Grau Force Ghost star 5

    May 11, 2016
    Well at this point I can´t as well, strangely enough. Will try and see to get another picture.
    Basically it show the Chapter colours are primarilly black with crimson red as the secondary colour.

    Thanks :)
    One thing that allways tires me in regards to GW is that they only ever really use the most well known cultures as inspirations, going a bit deeper can make things more intresting in my opinion.

    They do occasionally experience the flesh change, tough the large number of apothecaries and half of their geenseed being WS helps to prevent it from going as crazy as it does on the thousand sons. If a member mutates they are generally given a mercy kill, their bodies being burnt and their legacy hidden as good as possible, sometimes new recuits might even take the name of a mutated warrior to further muddy the waters and make it unclear to the Inquistion how often this actually happens. The chapter defenetly sees it as a curse but are most of all determined to hide it as they have no illusions it will draw the ire of the Imperium. This is also the reason why they often go ot of their way to help the Mechanicus cause they of course oversee the chapters geenseed, having a few favors with them helps.

    Several times for sure, as mentioned tough I´m still working on it. So if you have suggestions for incidents like this feel free to bring them up. What I could see would them suffering defeats because Church/SW refusing to support them, or other purists like the Red Scorpions refusing to fight at their side in various conflicts.

    That the one area I haven´t moved to at all, but will certianly be one of the most important. Have a few ideas but still working on the general concept.
    Gamiel likes this.
  9. Gamiel

    Gamiel Chosen One star 9

    Dec 16, 2012
    This is maybe something you could develop, maybe they have a history of work together with tech-priests from the Ordo Genetor? Maybe they are close to one of the Genetor factions? Or maybe they are close to one of the overall Mechanicum factions? Maybe secretly working with a one considered heretical?

    I was actually thinking the other way around, that something was lost because the Crimson Scourge was unwilling to answer the Space Wolves call for reinforcement. Or the CS was unwilling to consider the symbolic importance of keeping a Shrine-world or holy relic/place out of the hands of the enemy, leaving them to fall because they believed their forces was of better use somewhere else, which in turn brook the moral of the Imperial Guard, leading to that conflict either being lost or taking much more time and lives than it would have.

    Other possible tragedies I can think of are:
    * through out the centuries have some of the artists, artisans and scientists they have saved been tainted by Chaos/Xenos/other, something that was not discovered until to late and the CS had to burn part of their library/collection, lost the voidship that transported the tainted individual/s, and/or having to kill battle-brothers that had been turned.
    * they secretly allied with a heretical faction within the Imperium or the Mechanicum, that seemed to have similar ideas to the CS (like the Logicians), before realising how extreme the faction was.
    * one (or more) of their Librarians' Flesh Changed before the eyes of allied Imperial forces, leading to the commanding battle-brother deciding to kill them all to hide their gene-flaw. If this happened he, and all other battle-brothers participating in this, was probably exiled on some kind of penitent crusade by the rest of the Chapter, based on how you have described them.
    - actually, this gave me an idea: maybe there exist some kind of Penitent Company within the Chapter, made up by battle-brothers who have done dishonourable acts to protect the Chapter's secret. - I think I will ad that one to my list of Homebrew chapter concepts.
    * at least half a Company fell to Chaos/other when trying to gain/gather/use knowledge from Fabius Bile/similar, that they believed would help them fix, or at least ease, their gene-flaw.

    Is it known that CS have a-kind of gene-flaw? Because if not could many that would have antipathy toward them, see no problem with working with them. And that could lead to historical/currant drama about keeping the knowledge that they have some kind of gene-weakness hidden.

    I would not say that they only use them, it's just that they work with archetypes/stereotypes and for their main Chapters that means working with well known ones since people should just have to give them a quick look over to get what they are about. The lesser Chapters are the ones they can use lesser known cultures for.
    Anedon likes this.
  10. Mira Grau

    Mira Grau Force Ghost star 5

    May 11, 2016
    That is certianly possibly, would have to look a bit deeper to determine wich group would fit best. Tough I guess general STC recovery already win them quite a bit of favor with the mechanicus in general.

    That´s for sure, also them generally tyring to avoid to fight right next to other imperial forces, just in case the flesh change strikes, could also now and then lead to more losses than nessesary.

    Oh that defenetly, tough they likley wouldn´t burn their library, they are too TS for that, instead they might decide to lock more dangerous works away in the deepest worlds of their fortress monastery where only the highest members of the chapter have insight to. Wouldn´t outrule there is some taint, hidden, they are freethinkers after all.

    Not sure if they would be upset about the deaths of guardsmen if its done to hide their secrets, they might send these squads on pentinent missions but more to appear regretfull rather than any actual regret. They don´t have much love for the Astra Militarum.

    Pretty much every chapter has something like that (I think the Grey Knights are explictily the only SP chapter who never had traitors of some kind).

    Not sure, do TS and WS have a known flaw, other than the flesh change of course? Would have to look into that. They have abnormally many psykers tough so that might drive some highly orthodox/puritan chapters away.
  11. Gamiel

    Gamiel Chosen One star 9

    Dec 16, 2012
    That kind of attitude could lead to lacking allied forces or many Chapters looking at them suspicious - "why do they never fight beside us?"

    It's up to you but since they are so old do I think one or two burned library wings (or bombed from orbit) because of Chapter-Masters that think that the written knowledge they have to sacrifice is not worth the Chaos mutated abominations and daemon that have begun to gather there. Should be part of their history. But after each time they rebuild and continue, after all: this time they know what they are doing.

    Don't need to be Astra Militarum, could be fellow Space Marines, or the Mechanicum forces that they work closely with. But even if they themselves were not upset about the killing so is it another secret that they need to keep hidden.

    They are? Okey, I just did not realise that form your write-up.

    True, but by presenting a very Chapter specific reason to why they fell do you ad character.

    Don't think so. According to the Deathwatch RPG do the WS have a psychological tendency for cruelty but not any more notable than the Ultramarines' or Imperial Fists' psychological tendencies toward a certain way of thinking.

    But there is a possibility that both the TS or the WS gene-seed have mutated through out the millennia, if not both have done it. Creating more directly visible mutations, or maybe something that they CS hides by replacing the mutated part with cybernetics? I have a list, or more, of Space Marine mutations, if you are interested.

    Some more ideas that might inspire you:
    * they use some kind of forbidden technology, after all they are wise and knowledgeable, unhindered by the superstition and dogma of the rest of the Imperium, they know what they are doing. What could go wrong?
    * a radical =][= know about their secret, or at least enough of it, but instead of declaring Exterminatus, so is she blackmail them to function as her own elite special forces when ever she wants - could be that there is a long line of =][= who have known of the secret and handed it down from master to acolyte for generations.
    * during a battle so did all the CS battle-brothers with TS gene-seed suddenly develop psychic powers, followed by them all (even the Librarian/s) exploded into a massive ball of Warp flames that killed all in the near area.

    Also, if you want ideas for hermitical magic stuff to I suggest looking at the Order of Hermes in the differed MAGE RPG:s, for Egyptian magic stuff ideas take a look at the Tomb Kings from WHFB and the Mummies the Resurrection RPG. Not that deep but good for inspiration about how the CS Librarians could work their powers and rituals
    Anedon likes this.
  12. Mira Grau

    Mira Grau Force Ghost star 5

    May 11, 2016
    Sure, tough I recall both Jagatai Kahn and his geensons to be kind of loners as well, so maybe other forces just think "well its the Kahn´s blood".

    Maybe, but again "the only good is knowldge, the only evil is ignorance" that´s the core principle so I´m not sure they would ever really destroy knowledge.

    I honestly think it would be worse for the chapters reputation to attack "better" i.e. non guardsmen imperial forces than a mutation being wittnesed. My guess is that if mechanicus or another chapter see that they would try to chalk it up to the influence of the warp or some weird xenos weapon. Surely suspicious, but probably less than allies going missing around them, not to mention the fallout it would cause if they are caught doing so.

    Yeah, kind tired of the notion that like every author gives their chapter a good realtionship with the guard.

    Again it makes perfect sense, maybe some of their traitours kin even linked up with Magnus over the years.

    Maybe slightly deformed leggs? Like the chlichee of Mongols and other steppe tribes, due to constant horsebackriding?

    Don´t think they would be as careless probably more "as long as this thing hasn´t proven it can go utterly wrong its save enough to be used".

    Difficult, maybe but I would see it more of a partnership with a radical Inquistor where both parties have dirt on the other. Both stay silent about it because the partnership is mutually beneficial. Also every CS who gets caught would probably immidietly claim to have done/use whatever forbidden thing on their own accord and behind their chapters back to protect the others.

    Maybe as a lost company in the past? Officially they where all reportet as slain to avoid investigation?

    Again I would like to stay away from too much mainstream cultures like Egyptians. Rather look into maybe Tengrism/Zaratustrism for Inspiration.
    Last edited: Jun 13, 2020
    Gamiel likes this.
  13. Gamiel

    Gamiel Chosen One star 9

    Dec 16, 2012
  14. Gamiel

    Gamiel Chosen One star 9

    Dec 16, 2012
    Sorry, I realised that I formulated that bad but that was after the EDIT ability ended. What I meant is that you could built something on that they seldom fight alongside others. Many Chapters have relationships with each other based on the their history of fighting side by side (there is a common story starter that a Chapter sends out some of their members to help another Chapter that they have fought beside, or are unwilling to follow =][= orders to attack because of that - or at least are willing to give the Chapter a chance to prove themselves innocent). By not fighting beside others you find yourself without political allies, and maybe some enemies. If they are at least coordinating with others (over vox-/holo-caster or by sending officers to the strategy meeting) do they get some respect but there will likely still be some questions about why they don't want to fight beside others.

    A possible background event could be the CS reaction to the sudden reinforcement of other Imperial Forces during a conflict and they either have to decide to fight beside them, or give up their position and thereby give up the foothold and forward momentum they have made.

    Another thing that could be of interest is their relationship with the WS and other WS successors.

    I can see this leading to some CS going the way of the Relictors

    What I would do, which don't need to be what you will do, is that the present CS killed all witnesses and anybody that could report on their act and then blamed it on enemy actions, or if they had to kill all there: just did not report anything and acted like they never was there.

    I would not say every author do that, the Dark Angels*, Iron Hands*, Space Sharks, and Flesh Tearers, among other don't really work well with the IG.
    * and many of their successors

    The WS successor Chapter Mantis Warriors have a flaw in their geneseed: "it does not function properly with the Preomnor implant. As such, when a Mantis Warrior sets himself into a certain frame of mind the Prenomor gland secretes a potent neurotoxin that permanently changes the marine's physiology; the frame of mind in question is one of deepest penance and piety. This neurotoxin alters the marine's sense of space and time, increasing his reaction rate to near-precognitive states; it also increases his strength to a great extent. To a human it would seem that the warrior is simply stepping aside before anything happens. Unfortunately this marvelous gift comes at a price - the change is irreversible and the marine's sight becomes tunneled to the point of not noticing anything that is not a target. The Mantis Warriors call this state of mind the "Battle-haze"."

    And in the Deathwatch RPG there was a table of possible geneseed deficiencies, that was not sever enough for them to get notable problems with most other Chapters or the =][=:
    "1) Hyper-stimulated Omophagea: Having tasted the flesh of the foe once, the Chapter’s Battle-Brothers develop an addiction to the processes allowed by the Omophagea. A player character confronted with the opportunity to partake of the flesh of a fallen enemy must pass […] Willpower Test or do so immediately, whether he wants to or not.
    2) Oversensitive Occulobe:The organ that allows the Space Marines to see in low light conditions has become overly sensitised, working exceptionally well in the dark but suffering in full light conditions. [...]
    3) Mutated Catalepsean Node: The implant that allows the Battle-Brother to enter a half-sleep in which he can remain alert for danger has become dangerously mutated. The Space Marine is unable to sleep normally, and stays awake for days, even weeks on end without effect. However, when sleep does come, sometimes with little or no warning, it is wont to last for many days on end.
    4) Oolitic Secretions: The Chapter’s oolitic kidney function is unbalanced in such a way that the Battle-Brother’s skin is turned an unusual colour due to its secretions. The Space Sharks (for example) have grey skin, while the Salamanders’ is the colour of volcanic rock. A whole range of other colours is possible, and the more extreme might be viewed by some as a seriously disturbing mutation.
    5) Disturbing Voice: Due to a malfunction in or related to the function of the Betcher’s gland, the Chapter’s brethren exhibit unusual vocal characteristics. Some cannot speak above a sibilant whisper for example, while others have deep, booming voices or speak with an otherworldly cant. [...]
    6–8 Lost Zygote: One of the Chapter’s zygotes has entirely ceased to function. [...]
    9 Doomed: A Chapter that loses the ability to replicate either the Black Carapace or Progenoid zygotes is ultimately doomed. Without the former the future generations of Space Marines will not be able to interface with their power armour, and without the latter there will be no future generations at all. Battle-Brothers with this mutation are unaffected themselves, but know that unless their Chapter’s Apothecaries can affect a cure, they are the very last of their line.
    10 Multiple Instabilities: Roll d3 more times on this table, re-rolling multiples of the same result (including this one)."

    I'm working on a list of possible mutations (of the will-likely-not-get-them-declared-renegade kind), maybe of inspiration:
    1. The brothers of the chapter lack any hair.

    2. The brothers of the chapter never stop growing, even if at a slow phase, making veterans similar in size to ogryns

    3. The brothers of the chapter can only see in the infrared spectrum

    4. The brothers of the chapter skin changes into scale like appearance

    5. The brothers of the chapter grow fur

    6. The brothers of the chapter have strange muscles in their throat and neck that makes it possible to spit their acid saliva with greater force and power than normal Space Marines

    7. The brothers of the chapter all have a gaunt and corpselike appearance

    8. The brothers of the chapter look physical wrinkled and old, giving each brother the appearance of an old man, even if their physical powers are not affected

    9. The brothers of the chapter ages faster than a normal Astartes

    10. The brothers of the chapter can open their mouths extremely wide and have strong biting muscles, giving them a bite attack

    11. The brothers of the chapter all turn into albinos

    12. The brothers of the chapter have extremely thick skin, giving them a light natural-armour but also an unnatural appearance.

    13. The brothers of the chapter have mutated vocal cords, making it impossible to speak any human language

    14. The brothers of the chapter have inhuman visages

    15. The brothers of the chapter have mutated vocal cords, giving them a close-range scream attack

    16. The brothers of the chapter develop claws

    17. The brothers of the chapter develop fangs

    18. The brothers of the chapter develop claws and fangs

    19. The brothers of the chapter have mutated vocal cords that make it possible, together their Lyman’s ear implant, to echolocate when helmetless.

    20. Loss of a sense, role a D5 for which: 1) sight; 2) hearing; 3) touch; 4) smell; 5) taste.
    If people have suggestions how to expand it, I'm all ears.

    I'm also working on Chapter specific mutation. Here are what I have come up with for the TS and WS:
    1. Red skin.

    2. One of the eyes stops working during the aspirant process.

    3. 1D4 twisted limbs, likely cut off and replaced with cybernetics or bionics.

    4. The brothers of the Chapter develop a third eye in their brow. Maybe its functional, maybe it’s not, maybe some of the Chapter’s members have a functional eye, while others’ don’t.

    5. Truly unstable geneseed: each battle-brother role one time on the Minor Mutation table.

    6. Glowing eyes.

    7. If presented with new knowledge or a logical problem does a member of this Chapter need to make a mental effort not to gather it, either physically or by reading it and keeping it in memory, headless of danger.

    8. If presented with a logical problem/puzzle does a member of this Chapter need to make a mental effort not to try to solve it, headless of danger.


    1. Being still for longer than five minutes are a mental effort.

    2. Have a dislike of entering small spaces and have to do a Willpower test to do it (entering thier own armour don’t count).








    Once again: if people have suggestions how to expand it, I'm all ears. Especially for the WS, I can only come up with mental problems right now


    Can't really help with any suggestions regarding the Tengrism/Zaratustrism, I know of some RPG books with some information about the Mongols if you want, but don't remember how deep in their mysticism they go.
    Anedon likes this.
  15. Mira Grau

    Mira Grau Force Ghost star 5

    May 11, 2016
    They are coordinating and things like that just as anyone else. Its just they don´t tend to take the battlefield directly alongside, instead they will flank the enemy while their allies hold their positions for example.

    They would probably stay, too concspicous to leave then. But then again, usually you will get some warning if forces are approaching so they could prepare to greet them.

    Pretty good I would say, probably the best they generally have. They adhere to Chogoris at various points and might even occasionally join in with other WC succesors in larger operations.

    Maybe not that far, but sure gets in that direction.

    Again that´s an insane risk, major chapters like the Dark Angels might be able to get away with something like that, but I doubt some minor succesor would.

    Sure, but I would say the chapters that are often featured like Ultramariens, Blood Angels, Salamanders and Space Wolves have all good relations with the Guard. Also not sure if the dark Angles is bad in and of itself. Yes they might kill guardsmen, or everyone else, to hide the exsistance of the fallen but they don´t seem to hate them.

    Will think about the whole mutation thing later. There is a lot to unpack there.

    Well just Mongols would probably be more pure WC like but sure. :)
  16. Gamiel

    Gamiel Chosen One star 9

    Dec 16, 2012
    Would like to ad to this that if people are interested in creating their own Chapter do they discuss that in the October 2017 issue and in issue #453.

    Also Pete Harrison, who has had an article on the Warhammer-Community page about how to create Legion specific Chaos Cultists, has some interesting videos about creating homebrew Chapters under his youtuber name Pete the Wargamer, including how to covert and paint. Here are some of them:


    Only if there are any witnesses [face_skull] WH40k lore is full of stories about regiments that have suddenly just stopped reporting and nobody knows why and don't have the time to investigate....

    Seems I was wrong about the plural, only one of the books I was thinking of was really useful regarding the Mongols: Wind of the East a sourcebook for Vampire: the Dark Age RPG.

    It has a lexicon with Mongolian terms player/GM characters are likely to use, a presentation of the Mongol society/culture anno 1197, their attitude toward the supernatural (though the World of Darkness lens) and the supernatural attitude toward them, among other things.

    Something I remembered that I had not thought about is that the Timurids was Muslims and in the MAGE RPG:s do there exist two Muslim mage traditions that might be of inspiration for your Librarians. Also, something that you could make a wink toward is that Prospero is originally from William Shakespeare's the Tempest, and there is a King Prospero in The Masque of the Red Death by E. A. Poe
    Last edited: Jun 16, 2020
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  17. Mira Grau

    Mira Grau Force Ghost star 5

    May 11, 2016
    With Regiments i.e. Imperial Guard for sure but Space Marines chapters would go to any lenght to investigate, no matter how long it takes.

    Was thinking about that but not sure how to put that in. Don´t want to do painfull muslim clichees like GW did with Araby in Wahrmmer Fantasy.

    That´s intresting, might look deper into that.
  18. Gamiel

    Gamiel Chosen One star 9

    Dec 16, 2012
    Since WH40k is more than just Space Marines should I ad that he has many different "how to" videos, for example how to covert models so they looks like Imperial Guard Regiments that GW don't make models for, or Legion specific Chaos cultists.
    Here are some of videos on the former and since we can only post five videos will I post some videos of how to make Legion specific Chaos cultists later:


    Sorry I seem to not gotten my point across. Will try again: the concept was that while fighting beside fellow Imperial Forces (non-specified which) so did one or more of the CS succumb to the Flesh Change and the rest of the Chapter there present decided to take out all witnesses and sweep it all under the rug .
    The possible consequences of this that I can think of are:
    * Even if they had no problems with the killing in itself, and possible little regard of the ones they killed, so is it a dishonourable act, something that's a stain on the personal honour of the one who did it and the honour of the Chapter itself.
    * They are not certain they successfully sweep it all under the rug, making them (justified or not) lightly paranoid. This may lead to sudden and ill-conceived overreactions if they believe that somebody is on the path of finding out what they did.
    * If this have happened a bit to many times so will some people see that there is some kind of pattern here. They will likely not know what's going on but there will be a pattern.
    * Because of the dishonourable act they committed the CS might feel a need to honour the ones they killed for their unwilling sacrifice, even if they had little regard of them in life.

    - Would like to point out that the whole "no witnesses" scenario only would happen if the CS believes that they can take out all who say their shame and preventing any transmission regarding what they did. Possibly do they always carry with them transmission-jammers whenever any battle-brothers with the TS geneseed is out in field.
    - you don't need to specify what forces they were fighting alongside if you put this in their history, but if you do that creates a plot hook that you might use later.
    - And once again I want to say that you don't need to follow any of my concepts and suggestions, they are just there as possible inspiration.

    The book I'm thinking of is Lost Paths: Ahl-i-Batin & Taftâni Here are links to descriptions of the the two traditions it talks about: the Ahl-i-Batin and the Taftâni, you can read the descriptions about them and decide if they sound interesting. The former deals in subtile magic while the later is dealing in more flashy magic.
    I have not read the book myself so I don't really know what's in it but I leafed through an exemplar and it has two lexicons of words, titles and phrases that each tradition use, and some examples of spells.

    Something I would suggest is that, since WH40k is seldom based on something correctly but the pop-cultural or distillate version of the inspiration, you should try to track down media (movies, literature, comics, etc.) where the Timurids appear and use what you get from that as your main inspiration instead for the CS. With some other stuff that makes them more than "[culture]-in-SPAAACE!". For example the Space Wolves and the Ultramarines are so much more and less than just Space Vikings and Space Romans respectively.

    I have little idea how to use the Tempest since I have not seen or read it, one thing I can think of is that maybe they call the abomination created by the Flesh Change 'Calibans', or maybe some of the ones who succumb to the Flesh Change do mutate into a degenerated combat form (maybe physically resembling the cyclops from the 7th Voyage of Sinbad, or any of the movie/theatre incarnations of Caliban; or something similar to crypt ghouls, strigoi or (ironically) wolfen) that's called 'Calibans'. - If anybody have seen/read the Tempest and have suggestions on concepts and/or mutations based on that I'm all ears

    Regarding The Masque of the Red Death so are here some possible way to incorporate that (the ideas are open and not focused on the CS):
    * Sickly appearance with permanent scarlet stains
    * Have only seven Companies, with their Company-colours being: blue, purple, green, orange, white, violet and red.
    * Go around masked when not in armour.
    * Red spots cover their skin.
    * Their victory fests take the form of masquerade balls.
    * The world/s they take their aspirants from are suffering from waves of plague. From the children that got sick but survived and/or made orphans by the plague are the aspirants recruited.

    I have not seen any movie adaptations and maybe there is stuff there to mine for references.

    Also, I expanded some of my tables for Chapter specific concepts/quirks and mutations regarding the WS and the TS you might possibly find them interesting:
    1. The Chapter’s Librarian is flowed by a specialist guard, who both protect them and function as their executioners if they would succumb to the Flesh Change/similar.

    2. The Chapter have decided that their Librarians are only trained in “passive” psychic-powers, to prevent them from drawing upon to much of the Warp.

    3. The Chapter have decided to not have any Librarians at all; all the battle-brothers that show psychic-powers are given highly disciplinary training to suppress it and are fitted with psy-dampers. Maybe some of them, under situations of high stress, are unable/unwilling to use their powers and too powerful for the psy-dampers, making them break the psy-dampers and using 1-3 powerfully (if basic) psy-powers before mutating into abominations.

    4. The Chapter put such emphasis on control and disciplinary training and rituals that their Librerians don’t have the time to learn all the disciplines.

    5. The Chapter works really hard keeping their gene-flaw hidden, killing/recruiting/mind-wiping anybody that see one of their own succumb to the mutation – be they friend or innocent? This could lead them to try to only work in conflicts where they get to fight alone.

    6. The Chapter is socially overcompensating their hidden gene-flaw by being openly hostile toward mutants, abhumans and similar, no matter how loyal they are. They could also be hostile toward other SM Chapters that have known gene-defects (f.ex. Black Dragons, Sons of Antaeus), and maybe even Chapters who have implants that are deficient (like the Imperial Fist and their successors).

    7. The Chapter is constantly fighting side by side of Sisters of Silence, the Sisters’ nul-aura preventing them from reaching the Warp and thereby starting to mutate.

    8. The Chapter have an unusual high amount of Apothecary to constantly monitor if anybody of them is starting to mutate.

    9. Among the Chapter Librarians that succumb to the Flesh Change a few of them are still being able to function in combat but now looking inhuman beneath their armour and not being mentally fully there.

    10. Only use Artificer Armour, special made to ward against the Flesh Change.

    11. Among those that succumb to the Flesh Change do many mutate into a degenerated combat form (maybe physically resembling crypt ghouls, strigoi or (ironically) wolfen). The mutated combat forms are maybe called Calibans.

    12. The Chapter has no Librarians. Any aspirant shown to have the talent is quickly killed off.

    13. All members of the Chapter go through Librarian discipline and self-control training, even if they have not shown any tendency for psychic powers.

    14. They try to keep any member that have succumb to the Flesh Change alive and take them back to a locked part of their fortress-monastery where their acts, sounds and speech (if any) are recorded.

    15. The Chapter’s battle-brothers cover their armour and their skin with protective script and glyphs.

    16. Spend their time of rest in medical sarcophagi.

    17. Have only seven Companies, with their Company-colours being: blue, purple, green, orange, white, violet and red.

    18. Go around masked when not in armour.

    19. Their victory fests take the form of masquerade balls.

    20. The world/s they take their aspirants from are suffering from waves of plague. From the children that got sick but survived and/or made orphans by the plague are the aspirants recruited.

    1. Facial scars denote a battle-brother’s rank and prestige in the Chapter.

    2. Battle-brothers receive ritual scars in long ceremonies, the gathered blood from those ceremonies forms part of the celebration feast that follows.

    3. Treat their bikes and/or other vesicles with the same respect, if not more, as they do their power armours.

    4. Have used technology that would be considered heretical by the Mechanicum (maybe of xeno origin?) to bolster their ships speed.

    5. In combat they focus on speed at the cost of defences and heavier war-gear.

    6. Has a notable tendency for savagery that they try to keep in check by doing some form of artistic endeavours.

    7. Don’t have any Dreadnoughts.

    8. Their Dreadnoughts are piloted by those that have gravely dishonoured themselves and/or the Chapter as punishment and as way to make certain that they don’t die easily on their path toward redemption.

    9. Has a notable tendency for savagery that they try to keep in check by doing poetry and artistically writing it down and/or reciting it.

    10. Constantly read the weather and base their actions on it.

    11. Specializes in major fleet actions.
    12. Their scouts use animal mounts instead of scout bikes.

    13. Use lots psyber bound hawks/similar.

    14. Their Librarians specialise in reading and manipulating the weather.

    15. A fleet based Chapter where each company has their own home-ship.

    16. Have done heretechal modifications to their non-void vehicles to bring out more speed.

    17. Believe they have the right to take whatever they need from planets they have brought back into compliance.

    18. Dervish-like spiral dancing are part of many of their meditative exercises.

    19. Prefer to ride cypber-enchanted animals instead of Space Marine Bikes.

    20. Have a culture of quipping and cracking jokes, both in combat as well as out of it.

    21. Continue to explore and map the areas they travel through, and make war in.

    The idea of those concepts is that you either role on the list in the beginning to get something about your Chapter that get the creative juice flowing or after you have gotten your main idea to make it a bit different, a bit more than just the original concept.

    1. The mutation only appear among the Chapter’s psyckers, roll again to see what kind of mutation. If a 1 one is rolled again: roll again twice.

    2. One of the eyes stops working during the aspirant process.

    3. 1D4 twisted limbs, likely cut off and replaced with cybernetics or bionics.

    4. The brothers of the Chapter develop a third eye in their brow. Maybe its functional, maybe it’s not, maybe some of the Chapter’s members have a functional eye, while others’ don’t.

    5. Truly unstable geneseed: each battle-brother role one time on the Minor Mutation table. The mutation is probably cut off and replaced with bionics or cybernetics.

    6. Glowing eyes.

    7. If presented with new knowledge or a logical problem a member of this Chapter does need to make a notable mental effort not to gather it, either physically or by reading it and keeping it in memory, headless of danger.

    8. If presented with a logical problem, puzzle or riddle a member of this Chapter dose need to make a notable mental effort not to try to solve it, headless of danger.

    9. Red skin.

    10. Many battle-brothers suddenly developed psychic powers during stressful situations. Probably not as many as one in ten but enough for there to be a notable pattern.

    11. All the battle-brothers shine brighter than they should in the Warp, making it easier for psychics to detect them.

    12. Twisted, possibly semi-melted, appearance.

    13. They can only see the material world as anything but a ghostly haze of barely distinctive shapes, but at the same time anything with a warp presence is highly visible to them as shining shapes; with the more warp presence the more they shine.

    14. Each battle-brother is obsessed with an area of knowledge and has to make a notable mental effort to resist perusing this area of research if presented with an opportunity.

    15. Red spots cover their skin.

    16. Among those that succumb to the Flesh Change do many mutate into a degenerated combat form (maybe physically resembling crypt ghouls, strigoi or (ironically) wolfen). The mutated combat forms are maybe called Calibans.

    Those mutations are added to the TS already existing gene-flaws, if there is not part of the DYS Chapter's lore that part of their gene-flaw/s have been fixed or at least lessened.

    1. Being still for longer than five minutes are a mental effort.

    2. Have a dislike of entering small spaces and have to do a Willpower test to do it (their own armour doesn’t count).

    3. Greyish skin.

    4. Black eyes with yellow irises.

    5. Begin at stage 1 of the Chapter curse.

    6. Begin at stage 2 of the Chapter curse.

    7. Begin at stage 3 of the Chapter curse.

    8. Pinhole eyes.

    The "Chapter curse" mentioned at result 5, 6, and 7 and its stages is described in the Deathwatch RPG and can be summarize as a psycho-social problem where the SW became more savage and cruel the deeper into the cure he falls, and in Deathwatch RPG do Space Marines slip into their Chapter curse after to many situations that would drive normal humans into PTSD or outright madness.
    Last edited: Jun 18, 2020
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  19. Mira Grau

    Mira Grau Force Ghost star 5

    May 11, 2016
    Thing is, they are a minor chapter, who already have a tenious relationship with the imperial cult and some elements of the Inquistion. When allies start to mysteriously disapear or often get whiped to the last man when fighting alongside them, I feel that will give them far more trouble than occasional sightings of mutation, most chapters have those.
    Again might do it with guardsmen or imperials they do not like, sure. But with those they get along they probably wouldn´t do it, instead hoping that the good will they have gathered with these groups will help the mutation being overlooked. Also they might make sure to not fight alongside a chapter who noticed an occurence for the new century or two so things will be forgotten.
    Also by your logic they would have to murder their tech marines each time they notice it, given their dual loyality to their chapter but also Mars. Which is the main reason they are so determined to keep the mechanicus on their good side. And in chapters who have dark secrets like the Dark Angles Tech Marines are explicitly never told even the most basic things about the Fallen, but this sponetneus mutation you can´t completly hide from them.

    Ah, not really a fan of the world of darkness to be honest, their depcition of various religions really doesn´t sit well with me so I don´t want to get anywhere near their take on Islam.

    I pretty much did that, but aside from Medival 2 Total War and Age of Empires 2 DE I don´t really know much media that features them.

    That´s cool, maybe crimson stains tough instead scarlet.

    Maybe a bit too far off codex for a minor chapter to get away with.

    That´s a cool idea, sure why not

    My idea for victory celebrations would rather be quiet meditation/prayer as part of the Islamic heritage.

    Will go over the concepts a bit later, to give you more detailed toughts.
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  20. Gamiel

    Gamiel Chosen One star 9

    Dec 16, 2012
    I guess thar later is now:

    He also has videos for Chaos cultiest following World Eaters (here), Word Bearers (here), and Iron Warriors (here).


    Just want to point out that at the same time so are they an very old Chapter (2:nd Founding, even if they don't claim it) and that means that they likely have a long list of honours and deeds to their name and that kind of things do give some protection.

    How techmarines work seems to differe a bit from story to story and at least some Chapters seem to train their techmarines within their chapter (the Space Wolves and the Space Shark f.ex.). You could just ignore the question since that a seems what the background regarding many Chapters with problems do.

    Fully understand that, many of WoD books, especially the older ones, are problematic if not outright bad. But at the same time they often have some interesting ideas, and at least I often get my creative juice flowing be reading stuff and thinking that: "I can come up with better concepts". And the lexicons are often good for stuff.

    Feels like there should be movies about or with them but I could not find anything from a quick search. I did find a Robert E. Howard story where Amir Tamerlane appear: Lord of Samarcand. Have not read it so I don't know if it have anything that might be of interest but since it is a Robert E. Howard story is it most likely a entertaining yarn
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  21. Mira Grau

    Mira Grau Force Ghost star 5

    May 11, 2016
    Doubt they are second generation. We pretty much know all chapters of that time. Would have them be formed somewhere in between the second founding and the modern day.
    This is actually a pretty good summary on the whole "some chapters can get away with much more than others":

    In short is says the original nine are largley immune, while minors aren´t, so the CS couldn´t be. He actually mentions the Crimson Sabers being declared trators for whiping out a planets population, meaning that all hell would break loose on the Crimson Scourge if they attacked other Marines or Mechanicus forces. Also he mentions how some chapters, like the Black Dragons can get away with mutation to some extend. So I feel the Crimson Scourge is more likley to risk the occasional instance of the flesh change being noticed that attacking imperial forces to keep it secret.

    This seems to be a canon conflict then cause I remember several sources saying that only Mars can really train tech marines, and if it where possible for chapters to do it themselves then the Dark Angles undoubtably would do the same. And as someone who has the Mechanicus grow closer and closer to become his favourite 40k faction I feel more inclined to the "they are all trained on Mars" side of the argument, again its 40k so all is canon but nothing is true so its up to the individual to decide.

    I guess but I really don´t want to go there. Just dislike the whole franscise for several reasons.

    Might have a look at that when I got the time for it then, thanks for brining it up. :)
    Last edited: Jun 19, 2020
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  22. Gamiel

    Gamiel Chosen One star 9

    Dec 16, 2012
    Will have to disagree. The canon list of 2:nd Founding Chapters is never claimed to be complete, and new ones have been added and GW have said that if people want to make a fanon one they can.

    Since the Crimson Scourge is made up by WS and TS decedents where the later know their origin so do it feel like they should be of around 2:nd founding. We do know that many Chapters don't know their own age or founding nor is it known by the Adeptus Terra. It has also been implied that some, in practice, 2:nd founding Chapters were not really officially founded by their parent Legion but by a combinations of Black Shields, warbands and/or exiles getting together and creating their own path as a Chapter.

    B.t.w. is the "Scourge" part of the Crimson Scourge name a reference to the cognomen for Attila the Hun?

    Eeee, he has some points but he doesn't make any references to where his Dark Angels examples are from and any time I have read the DA killing people because they know to much so have they done it without any witnesses, or taking out all the witnesses so nothing can be pointed at them, or in such way that they have an justification. There is also that it was not just the Crimson Sabres killed the population of one world, it's that they had killed the population of two worlds and had no good explenation for why they did it. And the Crimson Sabres also had spent centuries making everybody disliking them by acting as let-me-point-out-what-you-did-wrong knows-it-all prats.

    He also make the mistake of thinking that the =][= is a monolithic organisation, yes the Space Wolves have problems with them, or rather Ordo Malleus, but there are also stories of Logan Grimner welcoming an =][= as an friend and owning him a great debt. Regarding the Blood Angles so do much lore present the Black Rage and Red Thirst as something that's not openly known and that they try to keep hidden.

    There are also many minor Chapters that are not Codex Compliant but don't seem to get any real problem from the Imperium for that.

    You seems to go at this concept with the idea that they were caught doing it instead of it turning into a secret shame and another dark secret they have to hide.

    Yep. I have not seen any real explenaiton to how this work, but in practise it is logical that at least some of the techmarine training is done back home at the chapter since they don't always have the ability to send people to Mars.

    Also the Space Sharks have been described as being nearly completely unheard about before the Babad War, which is strange if they constantly send their future tech-priests to Mars.

    A concept you could go with is that the Crimson Scourge is closely allied with a Forge World near them and that world maybe is following a doctrine that is not the Martian orthodoxy, and/or have some kind of specialisation that fit the Crimson Scourge needs.

    Glad to be of help :)
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  23. Mira Grau

    Mira Grau Force Ghost star 5

    May 11, 2016
    So can't do quotes on my iphone so I'll go point by point. If sonething is unclear just ask.

    1. The list of second founding chapters is not set in stone. That is technically true but to me its the same as with the Jedi who survived order 66, techincally only those we see die in that sequence in RotS are confirmed dead, wich then lead to in Ledgends variois authors having litterally every single other named Jedi survive. And it just became far too many. Same with the growing list of second founding chapters, don't want to convolute that even more.

    2. I mean yeah 2nd founding would make the mystery work better that's true. But then does it make sense that if we already have the Ravens and Arvida is the only confirmed TS amongst the WS, that there was another TS force with them?

    3. As far as I know Timur was also refered by that title during his life, just as Genghis Kahn. So I would say its not unique to just Attila.

    4. I have an older edition Dark Angles Codex that does include both the abbandoning other space marines to die to an Orc Invasion to go hunt the fallen, as well as the planetary governor example he mentions. The planetary Invasion Sourcebook also mentions the DA whiping out a planets population for seemingly no reason and the Black Templars Codex mentioned a BT strikeforce going "missing" right after teaming up with DA to fight some chaos followers lead by a fallen. So yeah these actions are defenetly canon.

    5. The Inquistion is relativley monolithic. The radicals who break the rules and are more flexible are crass exeptions rather than a rule. And again he doesn't say every Inquistor, but is refering to the majority within the faction.

    6. The Blood Angles flaw is known, The Knights of Blood have been excomunicated, the flesh tearers sanctioned over it. And the Inquistion defenetly knows the Death Company is a thing.

    7. He doesn't say Codex complaint, its about breaking imperial law. And its not just the Crimson Sabers, the Soul Drinkers where cast out for attacking an Adeptus Mechanicus Strikeforce, and even had a reason.

    8. Again I don't think they could hide an action like that. SM will go to any lenght to investigate the disaperance of their brother, to reclaim ever last bone/piece of equippmemt that was lost. It would be largley impossible to hide that forever. Also secrecy like that doesn't really fit the Timurids.

    9. Maybe its not just Mars but sone other major forgeworlds as well.

    10. If the Space Sharks where loyalists than they would have to pay the imperial tithe so they have to have had contact with the mechanicus.

    11. I mean I could see them hanging with the Xenarites. Maybe even their tech Marines are closer to xenarite tech priests than regular ones.
  24. Gamiel

    Gamiel Chosen One star 9

    Dec 16, 2012
    By the way people do know that there is a new official Warhammer Community Podcast, right?


    I suggest waiting until you get home and can use your computer. That's what I do with longer posts, and why I sometime take some time to reply, but it's often easier to follow what I mean and is replying to.

    I never meant to indicate that they did not do that kind of things, just that master Tactica Imperialis did not make any references to where those event was recorded so you could look it up, since he was very free with what facts he took up regarding the Crimson Sabres' (which act is easily looked up since it so important to their history) can't you know how free he was with the facts he took up regarding the Dark Angles and can thereby not know if they had given a justification for their acts, acted in secrecy or was in the open with those acts he mentioned.

    You have been told of the Inquisition; that shadowy organisation which defends Mankind and the Emperor from the perils of heresy, possession, alien dominance and rebellion.
    You have been told the Inquisition are the ultimate defence against the phantoms of fear and terror which lurk in the darkness between the stars.
    You have been told the Inquisition are the bright saviours in an eclipse of evil; purest and most devoted warriors of the Emperor.
    You have been told the Inquisition is united in its cause to rid the galaxy of any threat, from without or within.
    Everything you have been told is a lie!​


    Do we know that regarding the Knights of Blood? When it comes to Flesh Tearers am I rather certain that it was not knowledge about the Red Thirst or the Black Rage that made the High Lords sanction them but how they had acted under their flaws influences, with them openly killing allied tropes while going berserk, and among the slain a Sisters of Battle regiment.

    I find it interesting that you assume that for this concept the CS has to have killed other SM, and that there is nothing they can use as explanation and/or use to hide the bodies (reactor meltdown, enemy forces, sudden Chaos Space Marines, earthquake).
    And I'm not saying that you should go with this concept, it is just me thinking out loud.

    I fully admit I have no idea how that work for the Space Sharks.

    B.t.w. Anedon, you might find this interesting
    Last edited: Jun 22, 2020
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  25. Mira Grau

    Mira Grau Force Ghost star 5

    May 11, 2016
    Sure, but I was alone, with nothing to do for several hours at a deserted train station and wouldn´t get home until many hours later, so to fill my time a bit I wanted to reply.

    Well I think the theories are generally aimed at the people who have at least some advanced knowledge of the 40k Universe, and the fact that the Dark Angles will go to any length and commit every imaginable atrcoity to hide the existance of the fallen. As for the CS he had just done a lenghty video on them right before so he probably assumed the watchers would know about them as well.

    As for the DA giving justification that pretty much impossible, Space Marine chapters are usually not authoriesed to whipe out the populations of entire worlds, and I doubt the DA could believably tell the Inquistion that every planet they cleansed in 10000 years was so utterly sprawling with chaos they had to kill everyone down there. Thing is that even worlds that are corrupted to some extend are not cleansed 100 percent. For example in the book Warth of Iron the Iron Hands fight on a world corrupted by Slanesh and while they later purge a part of the population its mentioned they go by a certian quota and not just murder anyone.

    Also in some sources of lore its mentioned that the Inquistion knows about the fallen and thus knows why the DA commit the actrocties they commit.

    Well even if we say that, the BA don´t hide their Death Company at all, and they have Tech Marines. So Mars and any force that has ever fight alongside them should 100 percent know about the flaw. Maybe not the complete details but they must know its a thing.

    I think you underestimate how easy it would be to over up things like that, again maybe in a single instance that could work, but if you have organizations like the Inquistion monitor every move of you its unlikley you could do that for long, sooner or later people would get suspicious. And then the SM, they would go to any lenght to investigate and recover whatever is left of their brothers, if the CS says Earthquake they would litterally dig up the whole planet to find the remains, if there are sudden Chaos Marines they would demand vengance and go look for this non existant foe and so on. And again just one incident needs to be uncovered and the chapter is gone, even if not ecomunicated, other chapters will come after them.
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