Is Akira Kurosawa the key? Ep 3

I just posted this in another thread, but thought I would re-post it here. It?s possible that the Emperor gives Anakin his wounds, and it?s also possible that Vader lets Obi-Wan and Luke escape the Jedi purge.

There?s a movie you should pick up that might make you think differently. It?s a film by Akira Kurosawa called The Men Who Tread on the Tiger?s Tail. Since much of SW is lifted from Kurosawa films, it?s likely that we?ll see a scene in Episode IIII similar to one that plays out in this film:
[image=http://ourworld.cs.com/Three558821/Tigert2.jpeg]

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Yo****sune, one of Japan?s most famous generals, is fleeing from his brother, Yoritomo. He is accompanied by his retainers and by Benkei?all of whom are disguised as mountain priests. At Ataka is a [i]sekisho[/i] or check-point through which they must pass on their flight, but it is in the hands of Yoritomo?s forces. The false monks must convince the commander, Togashi, that they are real and Benkei reads an empty scroll pretending that it is the [i]kanjin-cho[/i] or subscription book of their temple. When they are leaving, Yo****sune?dressed as a porter?is recognized. Benkei averts the discovery by finding this porter too slow and beating him. The beating of a lord by his retainer is directly contrary to the ethos of Japanese feudalism and, though Togashi suspects, he is so moved by this that he not only allows the party to proceed but sends a train of bearers after them with saké.

? From D. Ritchie, [i]The Films of Akira Kurosawa[/i][hr][/blockquote]I?ll bet at some point in [i]SW3[/i] Obi-Wan (now having taken the name Ben) will have to pass through a similar check-point with baby Luke, and Vader will be there to stop him. But when Vader realizes Obi-Wan has his son (Vader may not know of Luke at this point) he?ll have to make the quick decision to let Obi-Wan go just so that there?s someone to take care of Luke. It?s an open secret between Benkei and Togashi in Kurosawa?s film, and so it will be an open secret between Obi-Wan and Anakin in [i]Episode III[/i]. Maybe Anakin will even send someone after Obi-Wan with Anakin?s Jedi lightsaber, just like Togashi sends his retainers after Benkei bearing saké.

Click on the above picture?the guy seated on the ground is Benkei, and the guy sitting in the chair looking down at Benkei is Togashi. Look at the clothes they?re wearing and notice the Yoritomo clan insignia on the back wall. That could easily be Obi-Wan (sitting on the ground) and Anakin (in the chair) with that same symbol on the back wall (only that symbol in [i]SW[/i] is a symbol of the Republic).[/color]

 

Amen

 

Who here thinks that SW3 will end much like Rashomon?

[image=http://members.cox.net/znthorpe/rashomon1.JPG][image=http://members.cox.net/znthorpe/rashomon2.JPG]

 

Ya' know, I've never seen any of these films, but after reading this thread I have a real desire to so I can make all the connections between SW and Kurosawa films.

GREAT THREAD!

 

Awesome thread. That's a very good possibility bad radio. I've never seen The Men Who Tread on the Tiger?s Tail (is it under a different name?).

I also wanted to mention that I think Sanjuro, which I saw a couple months ago, shares many similarities to TPM particularly. A quiet yet fierce villain, (likened to a tiger) reminds me of Darth Maul. There's a final duel, and he dies from a fatal and surprising blow that he could not defend in time.

And there's also a veil of political corruption hanging over everything in Sanjuro, which is surprisingly a more comedic counterpart to Yojimbo, and Sanjuro even mentions "viceroys" and their sinister intentions.

 

It seems to me that much of TPM?s and AOTC?s battle sequences come directly from Kurosawa?s Ran:

[image=http://members.cox.net/znthorpe/Ran_01.JPG] [image=http://members.cox.net/znthorpe/Ran_02.JPG] [image=http://members.cox.net/znthorpe/Ran_03.JPG] [image=http://members.cox.net/znthorpe/Ran_04.JPG]
[image=http://members.cox.net/znthorpe/Ran_05.JPG] [image=http://members.cox.net/znthorpe/Ran_06.JPG] [image=http://members.cox.net/znthorpe/Ran_07.JPG] [image=http://members.cox.net/znthorpe/Ran_08.JPG]

[image=http://members.cox.net/znthorpe/AOTC_01.JPG] [image=http://members.cox.net/znthorpe/TPM_01.JPG] [image=http://members.cox.net/znthorpe/TPM_02.JPG]


Not to mention that the same color scheme Kurosawa used to designate the colors of Hidetora?s sons is the same one Lucas used to designate rank among the clonetroopers:

Taro/Eldest Son/Clan Commander/Yellow = Clone Commander/Yellow
Jiro/2nd Born Son/Captain/Red = Clone Captain/Red
Saburo/3rd Born Son/Lieutenant/Blue = Clone Lieutenant/Blue

Am I crazy or did anyone notice that too?

 

For those still pondering what George means by balance of the Force, I think the opposite?unbalance?can be summed up in something the main character says in Kurosawa?s film Record of a Living Being:

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The World has come to such a state that we don?t really know what is in store for us tomorrow. I wouldn?t even know how to go on living?I?m that uncertain. Uncertainties, nothing but uncertainties. Every day there are fewer and fewer places that are safe. Soon there will be no place at all.

? Nakajima, [i]The Record of a Living Being[/i][hr][/blockquote]

 

The fool character from Ran (forget his name, and I've loaned out my copy of it), reminds me of Jar-Jar in many ways . Also, the whole theme of Rashomon was certain points of view.

 

>>>> The fool character from Ran (forget his name, and I've loaned out my copy of it), reminds me of Jar-Jar in many ways . Also, the whole theme of Rashomon was certain points of view.

I know what you mean. Kyoami, the fool, reminded me a little of Jar Jar too. But after seeing some of Kurosawa?s early flicks, there is one film in particular that has me intrigued. They Who Step on the Tiger?s Tail, Kurosawa?s 4th film, was the inspiration for his later film, The Hidden Fortress. The film is based on a famous Kabuki play, which in turn is based on a famous historical anecdote, and the film would?ve been a straight film version of the story if it hadn?t been for one of Kurosawa?s changes. Kurosawa added the character of the comical porter, who was played by one of Japan?s most famous actor/comedians, whose addition has been likened to adding Jerry Lewis to the cast of Hamlet. Anyway, the guy on the right in the picture below seems to be, I think, THE primary influence for Jar Jar. He is the comic relief for this story just like Jar Jar, and just like Jar Jar he too clumsily leads the heroes through the woods to the checkpoint.
[image=http://members.cox.net/znthorpe/TWSOTTT_01.bmp]

As for Rashomon. You are right, it is all about ?certain points of view.? This is a theme that runs throughout every Kurosawa film, the theme of illusion vs. reality, which is prevalent in SW too. As a matter of fact, the OT is all about illusion, what people perceived happened to Anakin, and the PT shows us the reality, what really did happen to Anakin. I also have a feeling that we?ll be trying to figure out after SW3 who really killed Anakin, just like people today are still attempting to figure out the great Rashomon murder mystery.

 

bad radio thanks for keeping this thread alive!

 

I'd like to think that Lucas is capable of an original idea.

Then again, it might be asking too much.

 

Melancholy have you been reading the The Mythology of ATTACK OF THE CLONES thread?

 

there is some interesting related discussion in the TPM forum about influence and homage vs theft and creative re-use.

 

Does anyone out there think that Obi-Wan will end up much like Mifune?s character in Stray Dog? This guy is a detective who loses his gun in post-war Japan?a time when guns were in short supply. His gun is stolen and then rented out by a black-market gun dealer to a guy down on his luck. As irony would have it, Mifune frantically searches for his gun and eventually meets up with the gun dealer. But when he publicly arrests the dealer, the guy who has the gun witnesses the arrest?he was there to return the gun?and is consequently scared off. From that point forward, the criminal commits a robbery and a murder because he needs their money to survive. Mifune?s character figures out that the criminal was there waiting to return his gun, and blames himself for the subsequent crimes?if he had not made the arrest he would have his gun back, and the guy who had his gun wouldn?t have committed the crimes. What?s more he carries this blame on his shoulder, which rekindles his drive to track down the criminal. In doing so, however, he starts to see the environment that the criminal lives in, and a strange thing happens. He starts to feel compassion for the guy he?s trying to catch, and Mifune realizes that the criminal?s situation is not that far from his own and that is could be him on the other side of the law. The following is an excerpt where Mifune is talking to his section head, played by Takashi Shimura (Kambei from Seven Samurai):

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[b]SHIMURA:[/b] My house isn?t much, but his place was horrible. No place for a person to live.
[b]MIFUNE:[/b] You mean bad surroundings make bad men?
[b]SHIMURA:[/b] ?There are no bad people in this world?there is only bad environments.?
[b]MIFUNE:[/b] I?ve heard that someplace. In a way I?m sorry for him.
[b]SHIMURA:[/b] You cannot afford to feel sorry for him. We all tend to feel that way because we?re always chasing them. But we mustn?t forget how many sheep get hurt by just one wolf. After all, we are all the guardians. Let the writers analyze the criminal mind. For me?I have to hate it. Evil is always evil.
[b]MIFUNE:[/b] I can?t think like that way yet. During the war I saw how easily good men turned bad. Perhaps it is the difference in our ages, yours and mine?or perhaps the times have changed, but?
[b]SHIMURA:[/b] You understand him too well.[hr][/blockquote]The story culminates when Shimura is shot by the criminal.

I think Obi-Wan will feel the same responsibility to Anakin. Anakin was tempted and decided to join the dark side where Obi-Wan did not. Anakin helps the Empire hunt down the Jedi and Obi-Wan most likely feels wholly responsible for his friends? deaths?if only he had trained Anakin better. But I think Obi-Wan understands Anakin too well to fully condemn him, and at some point tries to bring Anakin back. ?Obi-Wan once thought as you do.? I suspect we?ll even see someone like Yoda try to talk Kenobi out of trying to rescue Anakin, but that it will only strengthen Kenobi?s resolve as it does Mifune?s character in [i]Stray Dog[/i]. George Lucas said that Kenobi never gave up on Anakin even after Anakin became Darth Vader:

[blockquote][hr] The part I am working on now is mostly about Darth Vader, who he is, where he came from, how he became Luke and Leia?s father, what his relationship to Ben is. In Jedi the film is really about the redemption of this fallen angel. Ben is the fitting good angel, and Vader is the bad angel who started off good. [b]All those years Ben has been waiting for Luke to come of age so that he can become a Jedi and redeem his father.[/b] That?s what Ben has been doing, but you don?t know this in the first film.

? George Lucas, quoted in L. Bouzereau, [i]Star Wars: The Annotated Screenplays[/i][hr][/blockquote]So then, how do you reconcile George?s words with what Kenobi says in [i]ROTJ[/i] regarding Vader? Is he is trying to strengthen Luke?s resolve to bring Anakin back? Does he try to dissuade Luke, because someone once tried to dissuade him, which we?ll learn only strengthened Kenobi?s determination to brin

 

So then, how do you reconcile George?s words with what Kenobi says in ROTJ regarding Vader? Is he is trying to strengthen Luke?s resolve to bring Anakin back? Does he try to dissuade Luke, because someone once tried to dissuade him, which we?ll learn only strengthened Kenobi?s determination to bring Anakin back? - bad radio

Bad Radio, why does these questions sound so familiar?

I think the key is that Lucas is going to have to explore this whole thing very deeply in Episode III. That means serious scenes with serious dialogue.

I just don?t want to be told that this is what was happening. Nor do I just want to take his word for it.

I should not have to purchase the annotated screenplays just to try and figure out what Lucas was attempting to do. It should be up there on the screen.

If he can?t get it up on the screen in some way that makes sense, then it is a miserable failure.

 

I've never really thought about all of this. Yojimbo was a good movie too. I guess I'll watch more Kurosawa.

 

I've never really thought about all of this. Yojimbo was a good movie too. I guess I'll watch more Kurosawa.

 

I've never really thought about all of this. Yojimbo was a good movie too. I guess I'll watch more Kurosawa.

 

Okay.

We believe you will watch more of his work.

 

George Lucas, in the quote I posted above, refers to Obi-Wan as the ?good-angel,? while he refers to Anakin as the ?bad angel.? His comments reminded me of something I read in Dan Richie?s biography of Akira Kurosawa regarding Kurosawa?s film, Drunken Angel. Here?s what Richie had to say about the film?s two main characters, the doctor played by Takashi Shimura and the gangster played by Toshiro Mifune:

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Indeed, the doctor [i]is[/i] a kind of angel because he is absolutely determined to do good, the way that other men might be determined to do bad. Like the title-hero of [i]Red Beard[/i], he knows precisely wherein good lies and nothing will stop him. But Mifune is a kind of angel too, though of a darker breed. He is the kind of angel one wrestles and Shimura must play Jacob to this dark, unknowable power.

?Dan Richie, [i]The Films of Akira Kurosawa[/i][hr][/blockquote][i]Good and bad angels.[/i] That really got me thinking about how much this film may have influenced Lucas in [i]SW[/i] and I started to notice a few similarities. The first, and most glaring parallel, is Mifune?s dream sequence?it seems to be the inspiration for the Dagobah cave sequence in [i]Empire[/i]. Here you have Mifune?s character dressed in a tuxedo, for the gangster dreams of one day becoming a respectable part of society just as Luke dreams of becoming a Jedi. The gangster runs along a beach in his dream and comes across a casket that has washed ashore.
[image=http://members.cox.net/znthorpe/drunkangel1.JPG]
As luck would have it, Mifune is carrying an axe, and as he starts to crack open the casket, you get the feeling that what he?ll find inside is the body of a rival gangster who has been a cause of upheaval in Mifune?s life.
[image=http://members.cox.net/znthorpe/drunkangel2.JPG] [image=http://members.cox.net/znthorpe/drunkangel3.JPG]
When Mifune gets the casket open, however, what he finds is himself lying there in his old gangster clothes. For a moment the doppelganger lays totally motionless but then suddenly comes alive.
[image=http://members.cox.net/znthorpe/drunkangel4.JPG] [image=http://members.cox.net/znthorpe/drunkangel5.JPG]
The frightened Mifune takes off in a run with his gangster doppelganger in hot pursuit.
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Then Mifune wakes up.

The implication of this sequence is clear. We get the impression from the outset of the film that Mifune does not want to be a gangster. How he sees himself, and what he wants to become, however, does not match up with just how bad he is capable of becoming. The doctor repeatedly warns him that he will never be more than a thug and will persist to bring harm to innocent people if he continues down his current path. Mifune?s dream reiterates the doctor?s words and forces the gangster to confront himself. The same can be said about Luke in [i]Empire[/i].

Luke goes into the cave taking his weapons with him despite the fact that Yoda said there would be no need for them. Clearly, Luke is afraid of what is in the cave. Fear is the path to the dark side, so it?s no surprise that he confronts the embodiment of his fear?Darth Vader. But just when Luke thinks he beaten Vader (when he cracks open the casket) he finds that he was only fighting himself. Luke failed to control his fear and the Force showed him what he is capable of becoming if he neglects to take command of his fear. Luke, just like Mifune in [i]Drunken Angel[/i], is in danger of becoming the opposite of what he wants to be.

There is another parallel between [i]Star Wars[/i] and [i]Drunken Angel[/i] that is not so much literal as it is symbolic. In [i]Drunken Angel[/i], the sump pond in the middle of the city, dangerous and filled with disease, comes into contact daily with the thousands of people who live around it. Once an enormous bomb crater, the sump is a remnant of the war and is like a huge cancer, alive and growing in the city. Kuro

 

Best
Thread
Ever

You guys have made an awesome job, thanks!

 

This thread is awesome, and I can't think of anything else to add except something I posted a while back, about how Mifune's character in Seven Samurai takes parts of his costume from people he kills throughout the movie, and how this might be inspiration for a theory going around that Vader's costume being made up of parts from other characters, possibly ones he kills himself.

Cheers,
Nate

 

This thread is awesome, and I can't think of anything else to add except something I posted a while back, about how Mifune's character in Seven Samurai takes parts of his costume from people he kills throughout the movie, and how this might be inspiration for a theory going around that Vader's costume being made up of parts from other characters, possibly ones he kills himself.-Kit Fisto- Rasta Jedi

I really do like this idea.

But the people he is most likely to kill are Jedi. What could he take from them to build his armor?

The only thing I can think of is Plo Koon's mask and Dooku's cape.

 

There?s even a scene between the doctor and the nurse in which they talk about Mifune, that is uncannily similar to Ben and Luke?s dialogue in ROTJ regarding Anakin (Melancholy, this one?s for you)

Bad Radio,

I think you might be an even bigger fan than Lucas!

Listen, I think there is a good possiblity that you may be right.

However, I want you to admit that this must be relayed to the audience somehow.

Unless we see scenes in Episode III to support this belief that Obi-Wan and Yoda believed Anakin could be redeemed, I (and practically everyone else) will have trouble buying it.

I want scenes and dialogue in Episode III showing me that this is the long term plan.

I want to know that they intended to simply spur Luke on, that they did not want Luke to try (emphasis on try because it could never happen) and kill Vader.

I don't think people will buy it unless we see evidence in the film.

To them, it would seem that the OT and PT don't fit together properly.

 

Samurai-Jack...Towards the end of that enormous post about Kurosawa, I noticed the word "Jidai." Is that pronounced JEDI? Suddenly, all the weird names in SW seem to make sense...Obi Wan Kenobi? Qui Gon Jinn? Those names seem to belong on the walls of ancient dojos (spelling?).