Is Anakin really more powerful than Palpatine?

Anakin was probably as powerful as sidious near the end of ROTS.

However sidious had more knowledge of the dark side, and seeing how anakin had started down the dark path, he would have wanted to learn as much as possible of sidious before killing him.
Knowledge was his only real advantage over anakin.

I also dont think Obi-wan beat anakin because of anakins emotional state, i think the film show Obi-wan fighting in defence mode for most of the duel.
While anakin is constantly attacking.

Its a bit like football, The weaker team play 11 players behind the ball for 90 mins
when playing a team that they know are miles better than them. And they sometimes sneak the win.(Obi-wan vs Anakin ).
When 2 really good teams are playing each other, the match can go either way as they are both less cautious, and they don't see the other team as being much better than themselves.
(Yoda vs Sidious)

And sometimes the referee throws a match in one team's favour ( Anakin ).

 

And lately I'm starting to think that Yoda wasn't quite telling the truth when he says that Obi-Wan wasn't strong enough to take on Sidious. Maybe it's because Yoda wasn't strong enough to take on Anakin?

Anyway, the whole hierarchy thing makes my head spin, since you have Anakin beats Sidious who beats Yoda who's stronger that Obi-Wan who beats Anakin...

Yoda was telling the truth. Lucas says "you have to be either Mace or Yoda to compete with the Emperor". This means Obi-Wan doesn't even have a chance at winning.

Anakin didn't beat the Emperor during ROTS. He could have only defeated the Emperor in the future, not at the time of ROTS.

The OS says the Emperor is the most powerful dark side practicioner. Lucas referred to the Emperor as the "toughest" in regards to his duel with Yoda. McDiarmid said that his character is "much more powerful" than Anakin. According to Master Replicas, the Emperor and Yoda are the "greatest wizards of the Force in the galaxy".

Yoda sent Obi-Wan to fight Anakin, meaning he considers the Emperor the stronger of the two. Obi-Wan can fight Anakin because of his experience, but can't even compete with the Emperor. The Emperor said: "Darth Vader will become more powerful than either of us." That means he isn't as powerful as the Emperor yet.

The Emperor displayed better lightsaber skills than Anakin. He killed the first two Jedi in one move each. Anakin wasn't able to do this with the Jedi in the Temple. In the hologram, Anakin is fighting two Jedi, one at a time. Both of them block at least two strikes. The OS and novel say Mace's posse are three of the best swordsmen the Jedi Order ever produced, so the Jedi left in the Temple must be inferior. Anakin couldn't even kill inferior Jedi as easily as the Emperor did.

OT Vader and ROTJ Luke > Sideous, Yoda, and Mace

Luke and Vader weren't even close to the Emperor's power level. That's why Luke was electrocuted so easily.

 

So can we agree on an analysis something to the effect of this?

In Terms of Mastered Force Usage

The Emporer > Yoda > Mace > Anakin = Obi-Wan

The Emporer I put at the top because when him and Yoda get into the Force-Off, Yoda strains to negate the Force lightning and only barely does so. I think he reached his limits, whereas Palpatine still had plenty of Sith bolts to go around. Mace had a much larger strain with relatively the same amount of Force lightning hurled his way, yet still had strength enough to complete the circuit. Albeit it wasn't the full power, but sufficient enough to rival Dooku's little firebrands. I put Anakin and Obi-Wan below him because neither seem to display the fluid usage of the Force that the higher-ups do. All Obi-Wan did in AOTC to show an equality was to ground Dooku's Force lightning with his saber and ROTS shows that despite his skill with the Force against non-adepts his success besting Anakin is slim to none.

In Terms of Lightsaber Adeptness

Mace > The Emporer = Yoda > Anakin > Obi-Wan

I controversially put Windu at the top because I feel that no matter how you see it the man beat the fastest Sith in the galaxy. This wasn't Obi-Wan's desperation move in The Phantom Menace, the two guys genuinely went at it with what they had and at the end Darth Sidious was one lightsaber down. I don't see how people could say Palpatine 'planned' Anakin coming; rather, I believe that Palpatine lost but DIDN'T INCREASE HIS FORCE LIGHTNING once he fired it to it's maximum to make it seem as though he was dying (which would have killed Anakin's chance of saving Padme). In the pods Yoda and the newly-christened Emporer show that they both have the velocity and the entire Senate hurling match seems to be a product of these two masters realizing this. Anakin comes in close to Yoda, but he still doesn't quite seem to be (in his fight on Mustafar) near Yoda like he claimed so boastfully in AOTC. As for Obi-Wan, I believe he was underpowered to begin with and that he survived his encounter because he was a better negotiator of the odds and overall tactician than what normally applies to saber skills. His intentional yielding throughout the bout shows this masterfully in my eyes.

Don't know if anyone else agrees, but that's the way I see it. And I will still adamantly hold by my belief that HAD Anakin survived Mustafar Yoda nor The Emporer could have held ground against him.

 

Why is obi-wan the weakest in your list?

 

at the very end of rotj when ankin picked up the emperor, at that moment...he was more powerful than any one in history...think of it this way...when the emperor was picked up...he increased his lightning output to his max...metal..being a good conductor for electricity..and lightning being electricity times a hundred.... vader took the full brunt of that force lightning ...remember rots...when windu was hit with it...he flew away...yoda flew away when sidious tossed a few volts at him...anakin....took the full brunt of it with cybernetic implants.....so.....anakin was and still is the most powerful jedi of all time...luke is a fool...hopefully lucas remakes the fight scenes between vader and luke...

 

? Is Anakin really more powerful than Palpatine? [ 18 19 20 21 22 ] brook_33 1,076 1/31 10:49pm by Rossa83 »



sigh, there it goes...

 

Because he is. Yoda and Mace are close to or equal and Sidious is depending on your view either equal to Yoda or more powerful. Anakin however has the potential to surpass them all and by ROTS has surpassed Obi-Wan in terms of pure power.

 

"Luke and Vader weren't even close to the Emperor's power level. That's why Luke was electrocuted so easily"

^
Luke was electrocuted so easily because he didn't expect it, just like Yoda was when he first confronts Sideous in ROTS. Luke also isn't as knowledgeable of the force as Sideous, but in terms of sheer power, Luke is stronger than both Yoda AND Sideous. The films made this quite clear, contrary to what Lucas may say in order to defend the visually unimpressing conflicts of the Original Trilogy in retrospect. Where is the drama if the two most powerful characters duke it out in the middle of the saga? It matters not, because that duel is correctly placed in the final chapter. Knowledge and mastery of the force is what separates a Jedi from a Jedi Master, not power. By the time of ANH, Vader is more powerful than all of them... and Luke surpasses him in ROTJ.

 

Obi-wan is not the weakest, he was equel to Anakin in his duel in terms of lightsaber skills, Hayden said in the dvd they had to be equel and non of them were suposed to look weaker then the other.





Anakin is not more powerful then the emperor yet.

 

In the prequels he's not even at the same level as the Emperor when it comes to Force-powers. Anakin/Vader has more potential than Palpatine, and given the right training and time Anakin would become more powerful than Palps.

 

take the subtle acting in Palpatine's encounters with Anakin when he reveals himself as Sidious vs. his confrontation with Yoda.
Palps has fear & hesitation on his face once Anakin becomes angry & ignites his saber.....Pals fears Anakin - he does not fear Yoda.

 

IMO he's not afraid of Anakin in that scene at all. He deliberately let's Anakin think he's in control that the decision of what to do is up to him. Anakin then goes back to the Jedi temple and Palps' plan is successfully put in motion. It's a win-win situation for Palps'. If he wanted he would have fried Anakin...

 

Nah....I guess we all see what we want to see with certain scenes and/or their delivery. But add in the novel and I see Palps was afraid Anakin wouldn't bite and was gonna strike him down.

 

Luke was electrocuted so easily because he didn't expect it, just like Yoda was when he first confronts Sideous in ROTS. Luke also isn't as knowledgeable of the force as Sideous, but in terms of sheer power, Luke is stronger than both Yoda AND Sideous.

If the Emperor has a greater knowlege of the Force than Luke, then he is more powerful than Luke. Sheer power doesn't do you any good unless its developed. Luke only had the potential to be more powerful. At the time of ROTJ, he was much less powerful than the Emperor.

By the time of ANH, Vader is more powerful than all of them... and Luke surpasses him in ROTJ.

Vader isn't the most powerful during ANH. Lucas says that he lost a lot power after being injured on Mustafar, and is weaker than the Emperor.

 

"Obi-Wan is at a level 8, which is where Anakin starts. But Anakin jumps to level 9 -- and the difference between 8 and 9 is enormous. A Jedi can get to level 9, but that's the difference between light and dark. The duel actually gives you quite an idea about these characters, because Anakin has learned the fighting, he's enormously talented -- but he hasn't learned the mental side of it."- Gillard in the article "Dueling Jedi".


"The duel will explain how Obi-Wan is able to defeat his protege, even though Anakin has been established as the most powerful Jedi who ever lived. Obi-Wan taught Anakin and Anakin has gone past him. But when you get to that duel, it's emotional. That's where the mistake will be made. And if you know the characters, you know Obi-Wan isn't going to get emotional and he doesn't make mistakes." - NG

 

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If the Emperor has a greater knowlege of the Force than Luke, then he is more powerful than Luke. Sheer power doesn't do you any good unless its developed. Luke only had the potential to be more powerful. At the time of ROTJ, he was much less powerful than the Emperor.
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"The son of Skywalker must not become a Jedi"
"He could destroy us"
"Luke, you can destroy the Emperor, he has forseen this"
"He has grown strong"
"Indeed you are powerful as the Emperor has forseen"


All of these quotes lead me to believe that Luke was alreay very powerful. No he didn't have the ability to forsee the future as clearly as Sideous or Yoda, but that is what separates the Knight from the Master. It wasn't Luke's wisdom that he feared, it was his power. By ROTJ, Luke is as strong as his father... and none of the Jedi or Sith before them are on that level.


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Vader isn't the most powerful during ANH. Lucas says that he lost a lot power after being injured on Mustafar, and is weaker than the Emperor.
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Again, I'm aware of Lucas's comments. I said earlier that I felt they were nothing more as a way for him to defend the lackluster lightsaber duels of the OT in comparison to the flashy ones of the PT. You don't think had ROTJ been filmed in 2005 instead of 1983, that both Luke and Vader wouldn't be doing cartwheels over the Emperor's balcony? And if Vader was indeed weakned after being put into the suit, how is it that his anger at the end of ROTS causes a small earthquake? Sideous knows he created a monster, and he grins because he knows he has complete psychological control over him.

How would the loss of a few limbs weaken someone's connection with the Force? Doesn't Yoda explain in TESB that the Force is beyond the physical world? Again, I can't take Lucas's comments at face value because his films state otherwise.

Vader and Luke are the strongest.

 

In that article, Gillard said Obi-wan is at a level 8, which is the level Anakin startsThat mean in the beggining of the film he was an 8, But when he turned to the dark side he jumped to level, But Gillard said that if you get to level 9 you will "mess up" Any one using the dark side can get to the level 9, But it would Corruped your mind, But to get to level 9 with out it corrupting your mind you have to gain experiance, So Lucas said that Anakin is more powerful, but Obi-wan is more experianced Anakin only has mostly 13 years of experiance, While Obi-wan has been a jedi his whole life, Scince Obi-wan has more experiance, He is able to fight Anakin, Even if he is more powerful, And Hayden said They can't make one of them ?Substantially weaker then the other.? So that would mean they were equal in the duel, Not in power, But in lightsaber skills., And Yoda sent Obi-wan to fight Anakin because he was more experienced even if Anakin is more powerful And Gillard is wrong there, Anakin is not the most powerful yet.


And I don't use the made up lightsaber rankings because they don't have much effect on a duel,The Obi-wan vs Anakin duel proved that, and the rankings don't exist in the movies, They are Gillards own oppinion to help him make the duels.

I agree

 

Anakin had the potential to surpass Sidious.

Potential requires untapping, and preferably not losing one's limbs, being deep fried and forced to walk around in an iron lung.

 

Oh I'm not saying that Anakin dwarfs Obi-Wan by any means, I think that Anakin is however more powerful than Obi-Wan though it's not by the massive amount it would have become if Anakin had never fallen to the Dark Side.

 

I agree Master_Starwalker

 

Vader and Luke are the strongest.

If this was the case, Luke would have been able to block the Emperor's lightning with his hands. Luke had the ability to destroy the Emperor in the future if he became more powerful. Clearly, Luke wasn't strong enough to defeat the Emperor in ESB. The Emperor's comment obviously means that Luke would one day be strong enough to overthrow him.

Lucas' comments don't contradict the films at all. Vader doesn't overthrow the Emperor because he's less powerful than his Master. If Vader was stronger, he would have killed the Emperor and ruled the galaxy- as he wanted to do in ROTS. In the OT, Vader needs Luke's help to defeat the Emperor. He isn't strong enough to do it on his own.

The creator knows the most about his story. If Lucas says Vader became less powerful after losing limbs, then its true. That's how he chose to write the story. It doesn't have to make sense in the minds of fans, because its fiction. In Lucas' universe, losing limbs decreases Force ability.

 

"In Lucas' universe, losing limbs decreases Force ability."

I understand what you're saying, but in that same universe... aren't we merely just luminous beings and not crude matter? Everything Yoda teaches in TESB, as written by Lucas, regards the force as a power of the mind rather than the body. A Jedi Knight, even after severe injury, wouldn't just lose that ability or have it weakened. If anything Darth Vader had grown even wiser by the time of ANH, leading me to believe that he had grown even more powerful as well.

Again I'll ask the same question, but answer honestly. Had ROTJ been filmed in 2005 rather than 1983, you don't think the final duel between Luke and Vader would have been just as much of a spectacle than the ones in the prequel trilogy? Or do you honestly feel they would have remained the same because Vader is weakened and Luke is just a padawan?

It would blow the Anakin/Obi Wan duel in ROTS out of the water. It's the final duel of the entire saga, and it's only natural that it's fought by the two most powerful beings in the galaxy.

 

I understand what you're saying, but in that same universe... aren't we merely just luminous beings and not crude matter? Everything Yoda teaches in TESB, as written by Lucas, regards the force as a power of the mind rather than the body.

Lucas says that the Force runs through living things, not machinery. Its a parable regarding the superiority of man over machine. The Force does focus primarily on the mind, but Lucas makes it clear that living matter is necessary. That's why Vader is less powerful. Whether it seems logical or not, thats the direction Lucas decided to take the story. The Force works the way Lucas wants it to.

Again I'll ask the same question, but answer honestly. Had ROTJ been filmed in 2005 rather than 1983, you don't think the final duel between Luke and Vader would have been just as much of a spectacle than the ones in the prequel trilogy? Or do you honestly feel they would have remained the same because Vader is weakened and Luke is just a padawan?

Lucas is always trying to improve the swordfighting in subsequent films. Its possible that the OT duels would look different if they were filmed today. However, they weren't filmed today. We have to go by whats onscreen and with what Lucas says. Luke and Vader were always intended to be less powerful than the Emperor in the OT. That's why the Emperor is Vader's Master, and why Luke isn't capable of countering the Emperor's powers.

It's the final duel of the entire saga, and it's only natural that it's fought by the two most powerful beings in the galaxy.

It doesn't have to be fought between the most powerful beings. The ROTJ duel was exciting, but both combatants were weaker than the Emperor.

 

My personal interpretation is that Anakin WOULD HAVE shortly become more powerful than Sidious, but that he was not really that close by the Lava Duel of ROTS.

 

There really is no way to win this argument. One reason is because there is little agreement on what's an acceptable basis for the argument itself. Some use only the films themselves and what we see contained therein, some use the films plus quotes from individuals associated with bringing us the films (including Lucas) and some use the films plus quotes, plus countless references to stories contained in the EU. This makes this kind of debate impossible.

If we simply use the films as visual evidence of who is the most skilled fighter then OT warriors would obviosuly pale in comparison to fighters in the PT just based on visual evidence. However many use common sense to rationalize that time and budget constraints as well as other factors hindered fights in the OT and had Lucas possesed the resources he has today that they would be a great deal more impressive visually. Sound reasoning I think but not all agree.

Then there are those that use quotes from insiders as a way to try and get at the proper perspective. The problem this presents is that they are often contradictory and make little in the way of sense when you lump them all together. So to form some tenative narrative theory individuals consider some quotes relevant and disregard others even if they are made by the same person (i.e. Lucas). These decisons tend to be based on an individuals personal bias and how they would like to interpret the story.

The ones using EU as a basis for argument discount that the EU is a giant mess that often disregards other stories within the EU and the films themselves. So basing arguments on these sources is sort of illogical.

Sense the debate in question regards a PT movie it is perhaps best to disregard the OT all together when making an argument as the OT was made at a different time in history and attempts to retrofit it's story to the PT leave large gaps in basic logic. The PT is a diffeent story despite Lucas' protests to the contrary and so it seems best to treat it as such.

If you wish to base your judgement just visual evidence then Anakin and Obi-wan are obviously the most skilled swordsman at the time of ROTS. I base this comment on the speed and fluidity of there duels compared to the static nature of the duels we see Palpatine, Mace and Yoda involved in. The Palpatine vs. Mace duel just looked awful and I doubt I would have trouble defeating either of them in a duel. It was the second worst looking duel in the entire saga behind the duel in ANH. Here Palpatine hardly appeared to move faster than the speed of sound.

Palpatine's duel with Yoda was faster than the one with Mace certainly (due to it being mostly a digital creation) but Yoda never once appears even close to hitting Palpatine with his blade. It never appears as if there is any real danger at all posed by the little muppet. The same can be said of Yoda's duel with Dooku. Show me one scene where Dooku was even close to being singed by Yoda's blade. Dooku had to reach even to make contact with his blade really.

In the Duel however we see visually the fastest lightsaber action throughout the saga (followed closely by Obi/Maul). It is by far faster than any other duel in ROTS (Anakin/ Dooku being the runner-up) and both are very impressive fighters visually. They appear to be the best.

If you argue that visual evidence is insufficient due to limits in film making and that the evidence provided by the story must be taken into account, I would agree (though I would point out that this logic must surely apply to the OT as well and therefore OT fighters cant be judged to be lesser than PT fighters based visual evidence, but I digress). However these appear to be inconclusive as well. We have witnessed Yoda duel twice in the PT, once with Dooku which was more or less a draw, and once with Palpatine in which he lost. We see Dooku best Obi twice and Anakin once, and then get destroyed by Anakin later. We see Palpatine duel twice, losing once (for whatever reason) and beating Yoda (though not conclusively). Obi-wan despi