PT Is it illegal to be a Sith ?

And, as I said before, the average Ploo-Ji of the galaxy will likely not be well-versed in Sith lore. Indeed, the most they'd assume is that the Sith are just renegade Jedi with red lightsabers...if that.

And we've seen Dark Jedi who had red lightsabers but were not full-blown Sith Lords. Asajj Ventress, Maul post-TPM, Kylo Ren, etc. Are they all Sith? What makes a Sith? The average Ploo-Ji would have no idea.

 

The Jedi believed that they could arrest Palpatine and build a case against him. They could hold him in the Temple and gather the pertinent evidence against him. And as we learned in TCW, it was their intention to capture Maul and bargain with him to flip on Sidious.

 

But surely they need SOME evidence to arrest him. Police in most democracies can't just arrest people and then get all the evidence (in most cases). They need something to start with.

 

The evidence is that Darth Sidious is known to be one of the two Sith Lords, and thus colluding with Count Dooku, head of state of the separatists.

 

So their evidence is the word of Count Dooku (who is dead). And what else?

 

It’s not Dooku’s word. It’s the fact that they know Dooku was Darth Tyranus and that Darth Sidious was his master

that’s enough evidence for the Jedi to know exactly what’s going on. They don’t need to present it in court since they intend on a coup d’état.

 

thing is,

Anakin went to Mace Windu and basically said "what up? so I THINK Palpatine is the sith Lord, the one we've been looking for"

Mace responded "how do you know this?"

Anakin and I quote the movie directly
"he knows the ways of the force"

now imagine if I went to a PT mod and said "that watcherwithin just sent me a PM a nasty one"

I have a feeling some here would think the correct response from PT mods would be "oh alright, we best ban him then, and investigate later, maybe early march"

 

but how do they know this?

Ok, so on a couple words the jedi are right to overthrough the government.

That would not go over well with the public. and if being a Sith isn't illegal, then jedi are just engaging in religious motivated persecution.

 

That couple words was all they needed to have damning evidence of the Chancellor’s involvement in a conspiracy to overthrow the Republic. They know this because they’ve been investigating Sifo-dyas, Tyranus, and Sidious. Like I said before, by RotS all they need to arrest Sidious is an identity.

It doesn’t matter if it wouldn’t go well with the public. That’s why the Jedi say they’d need to take control of the senate.

and they are justified in overthrowing the government to prevent the Empire

 

The point is, sure Palpatine has enough plausible deniability to defend himself in court. But the Jedi aren’t stupid, all they need is to hear it from Anakin to take matters into their own hands

 

Anakin: the Jedi don't trust me

Palps: use my knowledge then, my mentor taught me all about the force, light side, dark-side, rainbow side, all sides, I'm an octagon from all the sides of teh force I know

Anakin: YOU'RE the Sith lord

Palp: I plead the fifth on your labels, now don't be a pawn.

Anakin: gonna turn you in, get some brownie points for myself

----

Anakin: so that Palps he's a Sith,

Mace: wow! he told you? he told you everything including how he did it?

Anakin: well technically no..

Mace: he told you he was a Sith lord?

Anakin: no...

Mace: he told you his Alias was Sidious?

Anakin: *frowns* ...

Mace:...you found evidence on his datapad? google history?

Anakin: uhh..no...uhh...

Mace: Anakin, go home.

 

Palpatine had Dooku executed. How is that colluding?

 

they know there’s only two Sith Lords.

One is Darth Tyranus/Dooku, the other is Darth Sidious. They know that they are master and apprentice and working together before they find out who Sidious is

 

So the jedi have hearsay that Palpatine is part of the same religious Order that Dooku (may) have been a part of before his death.

The Jedi have no evidence of Sidious working against the interests of the Republic, as far as I know all we know is that he paid for the clones.

It absolutely matters what the public think. If the jedi want to keep power.

So you say in order to prevent the Empire the Jedi need to overthrow democracy and rule?

Even if they are Sith, what is to say they aren't fighting? Sith fight all the time.

 

be funny if they brought a midichlorian count machine with them when they went to arrest him

 

It’s not just “maybe in the same religious order” there’s only two Sith at a time, master and apprentice, and their orders goal is to overthrow the Republic.

They know that Count Dooku was the one who paid for the clones, so if they tie Palpatine to the Sith they know he’s a traitor.

And obviously you know that Palpatine is in fact behind the war and the Jedi were right to arrest him. the Jedi don’t need evidence admissible in court, they just need to verify their suspicions

And yes, the Jedi do need to act in an authoritarian fashion to save democracy. It’s worth using dictatorial power temporarily to transition back to democracy rather than stripping billions of people of their democratic freedoms under the empire

 

How else would Dooku know that Palpatine was Sidious if they weren't in league? There are only two Sith at a time and betrayal is common among them, but only when a new and more powerful Apprentice is recruited. Obi-Wan realizes this after seeing Vader kneeling before Sidious. That's why he said Anakin became his Apprentice after killing Dooku.

That is why they are illegal. Lucas has the Jedi discuss removing Palpatine before finding out that he is a Sith Lord. They have the authority to do so and secure a peaceful transition of power. Even saying to him that he is being arrested in the name of the Senate. So clearly there is something in the law that validates their actions. The Senate gave them that power long ago. Lucas even says that Mace is doing the right thing until he changes his mind and opts to kill him.

The first step is to arrest him. The next is to gather evidence from his office and quarters, which would be an abundance of. Then they need Maul's testimony, along with Obi-Wan and Anakin.

 

How do you know this? What proof do they have of their being only two Sith? Doesn't Maul disprove that any way.

I am sorry I still do not get "Palpatine is a Sith = Traitor", do they have evidence of him collaborating with Dooku to attack the Republic? Giving details of sentor travel to Dooku/grevious?

The Jedi have no evidence of Palpatine being a traitor, all they have is some verbal evidence he might be a Sith lord (which may not even be a crime).

If they verify their suspicions by lunching a coup they are fooling themselves.

And how long is temporary? A lot of military coups are 'temporary measures" heck Palpatines emergency powers are temporary.
Are you saying that coups are ok if they prevent more death? Do you think Kornilov was right in attempting to overthrow the Russian government to prevent the USSR? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kornilov_affair

Who are illegal? The jedi are acting illegally yes.

No the jedi have the POWER to lunch a military coup and take over, they have no authority to take over the government.

What seems to validate the Jedis actions is their own power. The Jedi plan to take over the senate remember.

They should already have some evidence if they plan to arrest him. You can't just arrest a public offical and then find evidence.

 

"no they are not

"yes they are"

"no they're not"

yes they are"

 

He told Kenobi he knew about Sidious from the Trade Feds Viceroy. he never said it was Palpatine.

 

you’re trying to prove that the Jedi don’t know that Palpatine is behind the war. Even though that’s canon.

In Revenge of the Sith, we hear they they are looking for Darth Sidious.

and in The Clone Wars season 7 Obi-Wan talks to Ahsoka about everything they know about Darth Sidious.

once again, I’m not saying the Jedi have enough legal evidence to put Palpatine on trial for treason in the Republic court. Mace attempts to extrajudicially execute him because of this.

But by the time of Revenge of the Sith the Jedi are aware that Darth Sidious is behind the clone wars. And they are suspicious that Chancellor Palpatine wants to to take power for himself and is “surrounded by the dark side”. You can debate whether the Jedi were acting morally or legally by arresting Palpatine right there, but they weren’t wrong about their suspicions

 

This thread seems to have split into two things

the first is

'is it illegal to be a Sith Lord?'

According to the book that shall not be named: no
according to the movie: doesn't say one way or the other
should it be? That's an interesting philosophical question....crimes/actions should be illegal, not thoughts, beliefs and personal philosophies. In other words, should someone going around in a hooded robe calling themselves a Sith lord be arrested and flung in jail? Of course not, what crime have they committed?


The second is

"was their grounds for arrest on Palpatine being the Sith lord they were looking for legit?"

This one is a bit more debatable. Should they have ignored Anakin's warning? Of course not, that would be silly, Even if he didn't explicitly state he was Darth Sidious himself. What they should have done is gather evidence, keep him under close surveillance etc or at the very least get support from senators they trust, Organa, Mothma, Amidala etc.

We as viewers know the urgency because we've seen the movie, we know that order 66 happens not long after the arrest. In general terms, the Jedi did not have to move there and then, they did not know order 66 was going to happen. And it could be argued the attempted coup triggered the massacre of the Jedi.

"we must move quickly if the order is to survive" is movie script logic and said because the movie had an hour left, not because it fit the narrative of the story being told.


Edit: this post wasn't directed at @Watcherwithin specifically.

 

The Sith's history of betrayal is known to the Jedi, who exploited it in order to eliminate them. Along the way, they learned of Darth Bane's edict about the Rule of Two. They know that Maul was the Apprentice to Darth Sidious and they are aware that he was excommunicated by Sidious. Maul is now like Ventress, a free agent.

No Sith Lord is altruistic. The Dark Lord makes all the decisions and dictates to his Apprentice and underlings his plan. As Obi-Wan told Ahsoka, the Council had deduced from both Dooku and Minister Lom that Sidious was in control of both sides of the war, and that he was behind everything.

As to maintaining control, they would give it up once a new Chancellor was elected. As to Kornilov, ask yourself this, was the Alliance right to stage a coup against the Empire?

By our laws. Their laws are different.

Right, but when they found out that Dooku was Tyranus and that he was involved in both the death of Sifo-Dyas and the creation of the Clone Army, they connected the dots to Sidious and concluded that Dooku replaced Maul and was working for Sidious. That he was controlling the Senate and the Separatists to start a war. Once they find out that he is Palpatine, they have proof that he had been in league for years.

Crimes of the Sith.

1. Intimidated the Trade Federation into blockading and invading Naboo.
2. Imprisoning those citizens and starving them.
3. Creating a massive Droid Army and Clone Army. Both of which were done illegally.
4. Started a war to gain political power.
5. Created the Blue Shadow Virus and committed other war crimes.
6. Attempted to assassinate Senator Amidala.

Crimes from the past.

Started a war that resulted in mass causalities and illegally took control of the galaxy.

The Jedi were going to force Palpatine to give up his political powers, one way or another. This is discussed after Anakin goes to report to Palpatine about the Battle of Utapau. When he tells Mace that Palpatine is Sidious, Mace realizes that with Dooku and Grievous dead, that he has to be moving towards his endgame. That is why they opt to arrest him first, before raiding his office and apartmento search for evidence. They do not go to their allies in the Senate based on hubris.

 

wrong.

These are crimes of an individual who happened to be a senator and later the Chancellor of the Republic.
These are crimes committed by a man called Sheev Palpatine. Who also happened to be a Sith Lord as his religion.
You might as well blame ALL Muslims for ISIS or ALL Catholics for the crusades and Spanish inquisition.

see last line above.

so you are arguing that arresting someone first instead waiting and not gathering evidence because of 'hubris' is preferable? lol ok

I'm kind of hope you're not in law enforcement to be frank.

 

The difference is that muslims and Catholics are part of religions with millions of followers. The Sith are two individuals and the Jedi already know both of them are criminals.

once again it’s not that the Jedi are arresting them for being Sith, their arresting Palpatine for the crimes Palpatine commited