Senate Israel/Palestine

*impressed*

Well spoken!

But:

You can't let injustice go. Not on this scale. They'll stay mad! Is that what we want?

You've convinced me that 'saying one side isn't "equal" enough because it doesn't have a state' makes little sense. But how about the humanitarian disasters? Surely that counts for something. If it doesn't... what does?

 

But at this point, with Israel being recognized as an established country for sixty years, it's too late to tell them "actually, you have to leave now."

As for troops from the UN - I don't think they need to wait for the two sides to work their issues out. There needs to be international pressure, both politically and militarily, to get them to stop fighting. Yes, they should work their issues out on thier own, but everyone just complaining about them not doing it isn't going to work, especially with a looming Likud victory in the Knesset.

And yeah, as I said above, unsettle the West Bank and give it to the Palestinians for a state (Begin was a freaking idiot and he did it on purpose) and give back the Golan Heights. Turn Jerusalem into an international city (a la post-WWI Danzig, IIRC) and use troops to enforce the international-ness of it.

At this point, assigning blame doesn't get anyone anywhere or help with progress. Recognize that everyone was wrong and start trying to fix things rather than each side pointing out what the other did.

 

Israel is a nation and as such they've been treating the native population (the Palestinians) like dirt. You honestly have no clue as to why a group like Hamas has been embraced? This isn't like a kid sitting in the backseat making noise and the parents pulling the car over to spank them. These are people who live in deplorable conditions made worse by Israel's actions. So, if you want the situation to get any better then Israel's going to have to be the first one calling for peace and throwing an olive branch since its their actions which have resulted in a majority of this mess. Let's not forget that it isn't even their land. Not originally. So it's a bit foolish to support their version of genocide when it's partly their blame that it's happening.

No side in this conflict has the high ground, but I'd at least expect someone from the outside could see that. Then again...I have a few reasons why a lot of Americans side with Israel.

 

JS, I urge to reread this

... and I hope you can tell me how you think Hamas is different from Shas.

 

If only! Don't you see that, in order to get Israel to submit to all that, they have to start looking at their own actions differently? As it is, they're not giving up on East Jerusalem, they're evicting people as we speak. First the finger must be pointed, squarely, internationally. Only then can Israel talk about what most of us here apparantly consider a just peace.

 

You can't let injustice go. Not on this scale. They'll stay mad! Is that what we want?

You can, they'll have to and that's as it will have to be. Do you think the Jews aren't still a little peeved at the Germans? But what are they going to do about it? Germany was already brought to it's knees -- but does that really make up for it?

All this "not letting injustice go" ends up being is eye for an eye. So you stay mad: well, then stay mad -- but swallow your pride, get the old stiff upper lip and get on with it. There are worse fates in this world than one person staying mad the rest of thier life. i'm not asking the Palestinians to like it: I'm asking for them to live with it, for the sake of you, me, the Israelis and themselves. Given the situation they need to be the bigger man about this, and they're failing miserably.

We have to let injustice go at some point, even on this big a scale. Becuase if we don't, it will never go away, and every day we all wake up to will be like the day after the end of the Six-Day war all over again and again. For the sake of not letting the injustice go, we're just foisting all the pain and anger on our children, who otherwise wouldn't know or care that Palestinians once "owned" the land of Tel Aviv.


You've convinced me that 'saying one side isn't "equal" enough because it doesn't have a state' makes little sense. But how about the humanitarian disasters? Surely that counts for something. If it doesn't... what does?

Sure they count for something. And it's right to press for acknowledgement. But if you base political movements, actions, violent or peaceful around those humanitarian disasters for years and years and years -- well then it never goes away.

It's easy enough to tell the world to "remember what the Nazis did" or "remember what the Romans did" or "remember what the Soviets did". The Nazis, Soviets and Romans are gone and there is nobody to speak for them. To the degree there is, you can always say "I mean the SOVIETS/NAZIS/ROMANS, not the Russian/German/Italian people".

But if there IS someone around to push back, that's a lot different. Now you're dealing with someone that is going to say "hey, stop taking a dump over my people".

If you tell them, "well look you might be a nice guy but... sorry, in this case your people deserve to have a dump taken on them"... what do you think those people are going to do whether they were right or wrong to begin with?

And THAT'S why you have to let it go, after so many years. Because we can't keep living in the injustice, things have to have an end. You can feel and think whatever you want, but please have a point many years after the fact where you stop drawing everyone else into it if the situation is unresolved. Because in that context, no matter the justification, it'll just start getting people killed or wounded who otherwise, had they just swallowed a little pride, would have led happier, relaxed and more productive lives.

 

I'm not sure we're talking about the same injustice/humanitarian crises, Gonk. You mention Tel Aviv. I'm not talking about Tel Aviv. That, indeed, is in the past. I'm not even talking about the refugees.

The very basics - West Bank, East Jerusalem, Gaza - is what I'm talking about. Are you saying the Palestinians ought to give up on that?

 

Personally I hope the IDF wipes Hamas out, but I doubt they could ever do that. I wish there could be peace but I don't think a cease-fire needs to be put in place any time soon. No cease-fire with Hamas has ever worked, so why do we keep wanting to make Israel try it? They pull out of Gaza, rockets. They let aid money go to Gaza, rockets. Hamas does not want peace, they want war. I say Israel should give it to them.

Hamas is a terrorist organization, it murders it's prisoners, declared intention of genocide against Israel, speciffically targets civillians over military targets.

I have no respect for Hamas, I hold it only a little more so over the Third Reich in terms of morality.

If Hamas would take prisoners rather than killing them or using them as blackmail. If Hamas seriously revoked their genocide declaration. If Hamas speciffically targeted military targets rather than civillians. If Hamas did all three of those then I would hold them as human beings, but now I just see terrorists in need of a smart bomb falling on them.

I fully support Israels actions. The duty of a government should be to protect it's people. Gaza should have been invaded the moment rockets started flying. If Hamas declares war why should Israel not respond? Israel has better weaponry and troops. Now that they use them the world cries disproportionate force. If any country fights only with a force that is fair to the other side then that country and it's citizens are idiots. You don't fight a war to be fair, you fight a war to win. If Israel put fairness before the safety of its soldiers and people then they are a failure as a government.

I wish my country would fight a war like Israel does.

 

GenAntilles... From this, may I assume you haven't looked into what it actually was that got the Gazans to start firing rockets again?

EDIT: While I'm at it. GenAntilles, since you're using even stronger words to condemn Hamas than Smuggler does, can you also explain to me the difference between Hamas and Shas?

 

I have to agree with Gonk here.

Watching this mess rumble on for the last 18 years is a depressing business but the biggest, most cardinal sin? The satanic pact that seems to exist between extremists on both sides. It goes like this:

Israeli right-winger: If there is any terrorist attacks the peace talks are over!
Palestinian extremist: The initiative is ours! Kill the infidels!

Each assists the political ascendance of the other, on the corpses of those killed - be they Israeli or Palestian - it's an absolute disgrace and no one either notices or cares to do anything about it.

Every individual act is not seen as the act of an individual but representative of an entire, thus if an IDF soldier harasses a Palestinian at a checkpoint because he's feeling hacked off because before coming on-shift he spoke to his girlfriend and they ended up rowing, it ain't going to be that. No, it'll be a nasty soldier with power making life hell for a Palestinian without any and everyone will hear about it. Cue a few hours later there'll probably be a riot. Similarly, if a palestinian nut lobs a missile at Israel and then legs it, Israel considers the entire area guilty and bombs it. What does any of this achieve? Deterrance? Not much actual deterring going on is there?

The other problem is the weird identity problem Israelis seem to have, they seem to be greatly aware of their weakness and utterly blind to their strength. Israel has the strongest army and economy in the Middle East, it is far from a weak nation. But because it thinks it is, because it keeps wallowing in insecurity - how many wars and how many people have to die for this to end is hazy - it keeps lashing out with no real idea of what it is doing, how or why. And it likes to hide in crude simplicities. This combination is leading it into terrible errors, the latest of which is unfolding.

As to what should have been done? One suggestion I've seen is have a strongly enforced weapons blockade on Gaza, but lift everything else. Get food flowing, allow people to get to work - create a sense of having something to lose which takes power away from Hamas. But all of that is dependent on Israel. The reason Hamas won the election was 2-fold: 1) Fatah was corrupt and 2) Deemed to be ineffective at negotiating with Israel. What Israel doesn't seem to realise is there are worse organisations than Hamas - take them out in Gaza and a vacuum is created for those others to slip in.

 

Well Israel still exists that probably got Hamas mad enough to break the cease-fire.

But if Gazans want something they should go to the diplomatic table. Except that every time they make a deal they go back on it so Israel has no reason to trust them.

If Gazana want Israel to believe them they should show it by bringing Hamas to justice. Except they haven't done that.

As long as Hamas is in power and control peace will never come. If Gazans want peace they should show Israel they want peace by getting rid of Hamas.

 

And you think they'll just stay and wait for the bomb to fall? No, what will happen is this:

A Palestinian family will be staying indoors, not going out. They get visited by 3 men, 2 with machine guns and 1 carrying a bloody big rocket launcher. The men says they are going to use the roof of the building, the family cannot argue. The rocket is launched, the 3-man squad leg it. A short while later, Israel bombs the area killing the family thus enabling Hamas to claim Israel slaughters and bombs indisciminately with some justification.

And this is somehow OK? That a country like Israel, possessing some of the most sophisticated military technology going, has no other option than crude bombing and tanks and demolitions of houses en masse, just in case there's terrorists in them you know? It's a stupid strategy and Israel should be a hell of a lot smarter than this. Hamas want this invasion, it helps them - they don't give a toss about the Palestinians caught in the middle, why should they? The more dead, the better.

 

Perhaps you're not aware that pitched battles were fought in Gaza between Fatah and Hamas? Hamas won. How exactly are the ordinary people of Gaza to deal with Hamas? Would you be willing to arm an insurrection?

 

GenAntilles, Ok, you haven't looked it up.
But you still you think you can judge the results?
Strange.

Read up, search words: IDF, Gaza operation, tunnel, November 2008.
First to break the ceasefire rules was the IDF.

JB: I don't disagree. But I read in your words that change is up to Israel (for opening up Gaza, at least). Which means it's up the U.S. Correct?

 

Doubt it Watto. Democrat Presidents don't have a record of pushing Israel. Strangely enough, the last President to really play hardball with Israel, forcing Shamir & Likud into peace talks by threatening to cut the aid package was Bush Sr!

On the Israeli side though, part of me suspects there is a seed of self-destruction in Israel. Say the secular jews come to conclude that whatever else it's worth, Biblical Israel ain't worth what it's costing them, then we've a direct collision with the religious orthodoxy that backs the Biblical Israel project. Once that starts, what happens is anybody's guess:

1. The Israeli govt decides to remove the settlers, calls the Palestinians bluff by putting its own house in order first. But the settlers and their rabbis declare holy war, they include serving IDF members, one of these takes a tactical nuke to Tel Aviv and boom! Because jews who don't support the settler aren't real jews, you see.

2. Or Israel unilaterally pulls out of the territories, leaving the settlers there which leads to a massive bloodbath due to them going on a mental rampage and the country splits over it.

It won't happen now, but I don't think either scenario is totally implausible.

 

This is the sad reality. You see it every time. Hamas wants a 'massacre'. Massacres are confronting and grab the attention of the world. In the early 1980s, the Sabra and Chatila massacres garned unprecedented world attention to the plight of the Palestinians. When the IDF moved into Jenin there was automatically claims of a 'massacre'. Every image of a dead Palestinian child being removed from an apartment block which has been bombed by Israel is a cause for celebration by Hamas militant leaders.

The reality is that many Palestinian groups take their inspiration for achieving statehood from recent history of Jews in Europe. Yes, I'm talking about the Holocaust. Arafat very much subsribed to this. From the Arab perspective, the Holocaust provided the final and compelling impetus for the creation of Israel. What really was the Holocaust? It was a massacre on a grand scale. Hamas wants a Palestinian Holocaust because such an event will steer world opinion and sympathies away from the 'Jews' who are always the 'victims' and create a perception of the Palestinian people as the new 'Jews', ie, the new victims. Unfortunately, Israel is always very obliging by adopting a 'collective punishment' policy. Every international human rights organization that monitors the Occupied Territories has stated unequivocally that there is no moral difference between the deliberate targetting of civilians and the act of dropping a bomb in a residential area on top of an apartment complex. No difference. In criminal law, we call this 'constructive' murder.

 

I wonder...In the Old Testament, a good part of which forms the Torah, there is much collective punishment of all the Jews by God for the sins of a few, might these stories lend themselves to a cultural inclination towards inflicting collective punishment upon others? ie. God did that unto us, therefore we should do likewise?

It's about the only explanation I can think of, given Israel has other, smarter options available to it as the superior power.

 

Link

In a move that's sure to end well, Joe Wurzelbacher, is going to be reporting on this mess. Thoughts? I think it's pretty pathetic and I will not feel sorry if something unfortunate shall befall him.

This is rich: Wurzelbacher will travel to Israel to report for the conservative website, pjtv.com. He intends to get the, often lost, Israeli reason for the offensive against Hamas.

Yeah right. The American media and our government practically salivates to be given a chance to defend Israel. What total crap.

 

But they won't. I don't know about Linvi and I'm not certain which direction Barak would go, but Netanyahu is not going to make any changes, and Likud is going to be the next majority in the Knesset, the way the polls look. If they won't stop it themselves, than some outside, international force is the only thing that can.

And as for Jews as a whole, the ultra-orthodox parties, like Shas, are the ones that help form coalitions, so the prime ministers can't or won't toss them aside. Thus, they have to bow to their wishes or be forced out of power. And the Reform Jews (who are the least conservative and the most likely to not support what the Israeli government is doing) aren't even recognized in Israel.

Yes, the Israeli government needs to stop. But it won't.

 

NYCGirl: Israel won't change its stance soon. You're right.
JB: America won't change its stance soon. You're right.
I can vouch for Europe. Don't count on them.

Depressing.

Guess we'll have to take matters into our own hands! Smuggler, you set up the perimeter around Jerusalem. Hoth, you're in charge of evictions. Everybody! Jews, Muslims, Christians, Red Cross peace workers: the lot of them, out! Off to the desert you go. I'll do the sweep-up. Mr44, when I give the all-clear, you press that red button there.

No more war over the Holy Land!

 

As far as I can see the Shas have never declared their intent to kill every Palestinian, kidnap Palestinians and use them for blackmail, execute members of their own party who disagree with them, launch a coup once they win an election, so yeah that as far as I can tell is the difference.

How did Hamas fight Israel so well? If ordinary Gazans decided to fight Hamas they would win. I would support funding them if they agreed to recognize Israel and work for peace. Gazans need to realize that they have only two options. Support Hamas, who likes it when you and your kids are found in pieces across a bombed out building. Or support Israel who would perfer if that they all live. Hamas is the enemy. Israel realizes this, Gazans need to as well.

Hamas had public support, when they started the coup. Now that could be different. And as I said if the people that fought Hamas would recognize Israel and work for a peace with Israel then I would campaign for funding them. I would support my government sending them every surplus weapon we have.

You have got to be freakin kiddin me. The fact that the IDF took out a tunnel meant for attacking Israel is Israels falut! That is the most insane suggestion ever. What should Israel allow Hammas to attack or kidnap their citizens? Hamas struck first by building the tunnel.

If the U.S. had attacked the Jappanese fleet before it hit Pearl Harbor would you say that the lives lost because of the war would be on the U.S.'s hands?

 

The regular and unarmed residents of Gaza can't rise up against the uzi-wielding Hamas terrorists. They'd all die.

 

Why would the civilian population want to turn against Hamas? They voted them in.

 

40 years ago
The regluar and unarmed residents of Gaza can't rise up against the uzi-wielding IDF. They'd all die.

Give the residents of Gaza who want peace weapons, training, and support to fight Hamas. If the Israelis help out with air support and intel we might just have a stable Gaza.

As long as Hamas and groups like it are allowed to exist and attack Israel there will be no peace. If the Palestinians show Israel they want peace and will fight Hamas and its ilk Israel may lighten its grip. If there are no more rockets, kidnappings, or bombings then the extremeists in Israel will lose support, paving the way for the moderates to take over.

 

So you arm a family and it takes out the three guys with a rocket launcher. Then Hamas comes to their house with half an army.

It's not as easy as all that. Not to mention, as people have said, Hamas was voted in. Why are the people going to rise up against them? In a similar vein the Israelis should rise up again the government if it keeps doing things, but Kadima and soon Likud were/will be voted in because of the will of the people, and because those people want to meet violence with heavir violence, because they're sick of being bombed. So they vote in the people who will fight instead of talk, because most previous talks haven't gotten them anywhere.