ST It’s just… mind-boggling there was no plan

Certainly, the details behind how Ben met Snoke are ambiguous. We know that the night Luke activated his lightsaber was the tipping point, and that Luke thought that "Snoke had already turned his heart", but I feel like his goals are clear enough. He wants to be Vader 2.0, and he wants to succeed where he feels Vader failed - he wants to destroy the Jedi and rule the galaxy

That's why where she ends up at the end of TLJ is so satisfying imo - she's done with just hoping others will go out and save the galaxy from evil, so she finally takes action on her own

I do think it would probably have been beneficial to turn her from a passive, waiting character to an active one who takes action sooner, though

Because their various conversations throughout the film see her go from completely hating him to feeling sorry for him, while at the same time, Kylo gradually opens up to her as well, and both share their fears and traumas with each other. Force Skype 1 sees her visibly surprised by him telling her that he agrees that he's a monster. Force Skype 2 has him establish his own perspective on what happened with Luke. Force Skype 3 has Rey confiding about how alone she feels, and Kylo telling her that she isn't (thus leading to the hand touching bit)

Rey thinks she's starting to understand him and feels compassion for him, and thus a desire to save him from the dark side

A fair stance that I agree with

Like I said above, her compassion for Kylo begins when the two of them start opening up to each other

But come TROS, after she's given up on trying to turn him, their only interactions until Kef Bir are hostile or interrogative. She later admits that she did want to go with him, but as Ben Solo, not Kylo Ren - that is, not down the path of the dark side

Bolded that because that part is fascinating!
Does adoration for Rey and her arc depend on whether one is also a fan of Kylo and his? Hmm

 

We already knew that in TFA.

 

True. TFA's trials make no sense in the story we got. But there is a path here that could have worked. It just requires a lot more re-writing to do so.

Let's say Ben Solo is a good kid, but he has a dark edge to him. Just like Anakin had, and we understand those parallels. Maybe Leia wants him trained, (Much like QGN and OWK had wanted Anakin trained) but Luke is a little wary (Much like Yoda was reluctant). He can't see his future, and he doesn't want what happened to his father to befall his nephew. Luke determines that Ben is not ready, and that he himself isn't ready to pass on what he's learned yet. "Maybe in a few more years, kid".

So Young Ben, full and anger and rejection, impatient as any Skywalker, runs away around the age of 12-13. There's no academy to destroy. He doesn't leave Luke for dead. He goes off on his own, determined to figure it out. His search leads him to a dark figure who calls himself Snoke. Luke on the other hand, realizes he needs to figure things out too. He finds the first Jedi Temple and vows to study when they knew so that he can start a school one day.

Snoke promises to mentor Ben, and for 8-9 years he trains with the Ren. Snoke twists his mind, playing into all the things Ben craves - training, power, a destiny of his own. Snoke tells him that he's powerful and a lot like his grandfather. That his family knew this and feared him. That's why Luke wouldn't train him. This makes him feel ... important. Things click. He starts accepting that maybe he really is just like his grandfather. Maybe his family was right. Maybe he's meant to be evil. But at the same time, deep down something feels off, and he goes to great lengths to hide these conflicted feelings. He desperately tries to win the approval Snoke, who's become something of father figure to him. He's so much more powerful than his own.

And then in TFA, everyone is searching for Luke. Nobody has seen him in 6 long years. Leia knows that the FO is going to attack soon and needs the Jedi. And Snoke wants Luke dead so that he can't restart the Jedi. He instructs Ben to find and kill his uncle.

The ending of TFA, both sides arrive on Ahch-to. There's a battle in orbit between Resistance and FO. Meanwhile Leia, Han, Rey, and Finn all go down to the surface to find Luke. But no one is there. The place is deserted. Then Ben shows up. There's a heated argument and instead of killing Luke, Ben kills his father. Han is gravely injured. And that's when Luke appears. Ben is injured and gets in his ship and flies off. We get a nice little OT3 reunion. Han dies.

Flash over to Snoke. He's displeased that Luke is still alive, and that the new Jedi will now rise, but he also realizes that Ben killing his own father is a great sign. His journey to the dark side is complete. He finally gives him a new name; Kylo Ren. He's passed the trials. And that's when he puts on the mask for the first time.

Back on Ahch-to, Leia is trying to get Luke to return with her. Luke insists his place is on the island. The place has so much knowledge and needs protecting. He tells them to all go home. But Rey and Finn can stay. They have much to learn. END MOVIE.

In EP 8, Ben thinks this will finally take away all the conflict. And make him powerful as he was told he would be. He will finally complete what Vader could not. But it doesn't really work. He's actually horrified. He feels nothing but remorse. And so when he meets Rey again, his trajectory goes in an entirely different direction. Instead of becoming new Vader, we see what should have happened decades ago, if Anakin had rejected the dark side instead of accepting it. If he had decided to go with Padme, when she told him to leave this place, instead of fighting OWK and then becoming Vader.

In this new story, I'd have Ben reject his new name/mask early in EP 8. Rey offers him one chance, and he accepts it. He knows what Snoke was telling him isn't right. And so he returns to Luke, in shame, and begs for forgiveness, and for him to complete his real training. Rey. Ben Solo. And possibly Finn, start the new Jedi Order. And eventually they go up against the Ren, the Imperial remnant known as the First Order, and protect the galaxy.

Maybe something like that. With a few issues worked out.

 

What trauma does Kylo have? He didn’t murder his family soon enough? She grew up in pure misery, then he tortures her, murders Han and maims Finn. What’s his problem? He turned evil on his own, and then his uncle tried (and should have succeeded) to kill because, let me repeat, he’d turned evil. It’s not like Kylo decided to show Luke by being good, no, he joined the fascists and had six fun filled, murder filled years living down to Luke’s vision. Why should Rey feel even remotely sorry for him? Kylo fans can never answer that one because there is no good answer.

 

This is dumb and inhuman. No one can relate to this. I actually have some experience worrying about family sins being passed on to me, but this isn't how any of it works.

Still senseless, still baseless.

Not my idea of a nice reunion, with Han dying from a wound inflicted by his son just as they reunite.

Still dumb. There's no reason for a human being to think this. It's not a human mistake.

 

Kylo doesn't have trauma. He causes trauma. In his family. And especially in Rey

It's beyond laughable that the story, or anyone watching it, would suggest that Kylo needs sympathy due to his trauma. As if, he's the true victim in all of this.

 

We need a pre-sequel trilogy to explain Kylo Ren's trauma.

 

That one's easy

Because Star Wars is, and since 1983, has been a story that thematically supports the idea of redemption. I have no compunctions with Rey pitying Kylo. I think her in-universe feeling that he could be redeemed is not strange at all, especially since she's aware that Luke was able to redeem Kylo's equally genocidal grandfather. I also think it's tonally consistent with what's come before

I don't think the intention is necessarily for the audience to instantly believe him, particularly since Rey doesn't indicate she takes it at face value either - at least not until she questions Luke about it, and he tells her his perspective of what happened that night. It's only after that confrontation and her vision of Kylo's possible redemption that she resolves to try to turn him

It doesn't, but she seems to be under the impression that he could be redeemed then and there to the point of calling off the FO attack on the Resistance. As for how far ahead after that she was thinking, no one can say, but she clearly has it within her to forgive him

Is that a good thing to think, that evil people can be forgiven when they don't show remorse/regret? Nah, that's terrible. But it's not a stretch to believe that Rey would expect, or at least hope, he would express regret once the smoke had cleared

Again, I wouldn't say she bought it. Took it into consideration, certainly. But she never outright says to Luke "Hey, you did this!" - she asks him "Did you do this?"

I don't think that's necessarily the way it went - but Johnson's comment is fallacious, at best. Can't say I can really relate on a personal level to serial killers, but in the lens of a work of fiction with a set precedent of "bad guys can turn good again", it's an interesting dynamic to make

Before learning about his past, the audience and Rey just see Kylo as an evil enforcer. As the movie goes on, we learn he has a sympathetic backstory. Does that mean that we should feel sympathy for Kylo after what he's done? I don't think so. I don't feel sympathy for him after he chose to become a killer than I do for Anakin after he decided to go and kill kids

But the seed is planted to give room for the idea of his redemption. "If he used to be a good guy who had bad things happen to him but made reprehensible choices, and others just like that have found redemption, then he can too", essentially. It's a little meta, but I think it's an interesting choice to have Rey be aware that Luke managed to redeem Vader - it sort of puts her on the same level of the audience in that regard

(Apologies if that was a little rambly/all over the place; I had a seizure a short bit ago and really need sleep lol)

 

That doesn't answer why a character like Rey would realistically do it. Rey, the character, has no reason to even really care about this for Kylo. She isn't developed to pity Kylo, and is given no real reason to particularly pity Kylo. She's depicted, at least by the stated intention of RJ, to be involved in a romance with him:

 

God what a horrible thought.

3 more movies about Kylo's insane privilege and self-absorption, and whinging about how whha whaaa whaaa my trauma. My uncle tried to kill me even though I'm an evil fascist and all I wanted to do is commit genocide. Wha. How unfair.

 

Well...I shall direct it!

 

Unfortunately the sad state of the sequel trilogy can mostly just be chalked up to greed, Disney bought Star Wars and wanted to profit off it fast so they rushed out the sequels in four years, they didn't understand the OT (or prequels), they thought just having the Star Wars name attached would be enough. Disney-Lucasfilm didn't care then and they still don't care now.

They sure made plenty of money, at the cost of undoing the accomplishments of the OT, ruining their legacy and not even building anything worthwhile in the process. And they know it, you see it in how little life there is in the sequel era, how little activity. There's been, what, one novel sequel related? Where's the comics, cartoons, the games? Its been a long time since TFA in 2015, yet there isn't even a hint of serious projects in that era (unless you count the Lego specials, which are better than the sequel movies, not that that's saying much). Where's the stories of characters in the Resistance, the First Order?

Its frustrating seeing what's become of Star Wars, and other eras still have potential. Even the sequel era isn't unsalvagable but Disney would rather go for the safer, easier route of more OT and even prequel era works rather than try to build something decent related to the sequels.

 

I’m sure you have.

 

I made a post about it before TLJ came out, but TFA basically made the OT (and PT) pointless. It was a film that was meant to “feel” like a Star Wars film without narratively having a story to tell like the 1-6 saga did.

And since TLJ makes TFA pointless, and TROS makes TLJ pointless, everything of significance in the Star Wars narrative basically happens in 9, where we’re left off in the same place as ROTJ, except all the original heroes are dead and there’s no reason to believe that Palpatine is actually dead. Why am I supposed to believe that Rey will build the New New Jedi Order and the New New Republic will succeed, after everything got wiped out off screen last time? Since the story tells me not to care, why should I?

 

If that was what the film was trying to convey, it was hugely misplaced and illogical. Kylo Ren is already going about the galaxy maiming and killing innocent people. He’s already fully embraced the darkside. One doesn’t get more darkside points for killing your dad. I get the idea that maybe Han could be the only one to ‘save’ Kylo, so he needs to kill him to prevent a potential redemption… but the notion that Kylo needs to kill his dad, when he’s already a murderer, is nonsensical. If Abrams/Kasdan wanted to go that particular route, Kylo Ren should have been in the same position as Anakin prior to Order 66 I.e. on the cusp but NOT darkside. Killing Han should have been his first truly evil act… but it wasn’t.

That’s it exactly… The ST ends up eating itself (which is a common issue with Abrams material particularly IMO)… and in doing fails to progress the franchise, story, narrative, themes etc. one iota from where ROTJ left off… other than Palaptine has the ability to return and could have had more kids… which is a very odd place to leave the sequels.

 

Agreed, if Kylo had a sympathetic backstory we were never shown it.

 

As I posted elsewhere, the only real plan for the ST was Disney/LFL handing each writer/director a check and saying, "Make a 'Star Wars' movie and have it ready by the December, 20** release date."
I figure that the respective filmmakers didn't draw inspiration from the OT (where there was at least a general idea of where the story would go) or the PT (which had a definite end point to work towards, with enough OT material to provide a route there). I think they were more inspired by the Universal or Hammer Horror movies, where there was no attempt at creating a cohesive saga or "cinematic universe". Universal & Hammer just wanted to come up with a story they could film that would bring in the cash, which is OK if that's all you're aiming for. ("OK, that Dracula movie was a hit, but we need another one. He was reduced to dust and blown away by the wind. How do we get around that? Um...how about if there's this servant? Yes, he's never been mentioned before, so what? And...he somehow gathered all that dust back together. Yeah, and these unwary travelers show up. Yes, I think that might work. Get Chris' agent on the phone.")
That was Disney's approach. Just film whatever you want and don't worry about it hanging together. The fans can fill in the cracks, if they're interested.

 

Additional likes for relating it to Hammer production strategy.... that is how it feels...

 

"Here's $300 million. Go make a star war."

 

"Here's $300 million. Can you just like remake ANH by 2015?'

 

That is an opinion, not a fact.

 

Where did I say it was a fact. I said I don't know how anyone could make such a statement.

But please...What did the creators of the ST invent that wasn't already there? What was their vision and how did they have more vision than Lucas?

JJ didn't even have enough vision to create a new baddie for his ST. He reused dead Palpatine as a last minute solution because the other guy killed off JJ's Palpatine clone and basically recreated a poor man's Vader 2.0

There is no way the creators of the ST have more vision than Lucas. The visionary who (along with many other people working for him) created Star Wars in the first place.

 

It is a ‘fact’ that the ST didn’t have a vision. All the information is there, it’s demonstrable, we can draw that conclusion quite easily. Where ‘opinion’ comes in is to the extent that this damaged the ST. A film doesn’t necessarily need a vision to function as a piece of entertainment. It does need a vision (IMO) in order for it to be anything more than disposable pop… and Star Wars was always more significant than that.