"It's over Anakin....I have the HIGH ground..."

maybe not

 

"And remind me again why he couldn't just guide the platform he had been guiding all along to go somewhere else where he didn't have to jump at all? "

Too cocky.
Believed in his own power so much he made stupid mistakes.
Lacked the judgement that comes with wisdom as Obi-Wan had.
Irrational and impulsive.

Just to name a few

 

Yah, I can buy that. It just seems weird, because I would be like "Well, I sure as hell didn't want to fall in the lava, but I don't know if I want to stand on the crusty rock next to the lava either!"

 

Obi-wan could sense that Anakin was planning to jump over him. He knows him too well. Knows that he wants to show off as he always does. He's trying to stop the fight. He's not baiting him. If he was baiting him, he sure as hell wouldn't say "Don't do it." now would he?

 

Well said.

 

Obi-Wan was doing nothing of the sort. It was merely the fact that Obi-Wan's compassion which Anakin viewed as his flaw was coming out. He was honestly trying to get Anakin to stop the fight peacefully with neither of the two getting badly hurt. It was an honest appeal that Anakin took as Obi-Wan bragging and we know how that went.

I do agree that Obi-Wan was losing the duel and that had it gone on much longer Obi-Wan would have.

 

I don't think that Obi-wan is losing because the fight was too evenly-matched and neither he nor Anakin was gaining the upper hand until Obi-wan jumped onto the hills which gave him the "high ground".

 

I must agree with this, well said

I also must say i dont think Obi Wan was baiting Anakin when he said he had the high ground. IMO Obi Wan wasthinking straight during this duel, unlike Ani/Vader who was very blinded by his angry emotions ... Obi Wan knew he had the advantage and tried to let Ani/Vader know this and that if he tried it, he was gonna be ready to do what he must.

I think it's important to keep in mind that these two knew each other very well, and given Anakin's history to put himself in impossible situations and come out of them alive cause he thinks he can, it's only logical to assume that he's gonna go for it this time too.

 

The only reason Anakin loses is because it's time for the Evil Guy /to/ lose. There is no particular reason for EITHER Jedi to have survived that environment. Just ask someone whose been inside the crater rim of any semi-active (Hawaii for instance) volcanoes. Your _shoes_ are melting as you walk folks.

If Anakin needed to leap, he could have done so. If Anakin needed to _control his fall_ (as a parachutist does) from a height of 60-70ft, he could have done so. If Anakin needed to STOP his fall (as Mace does in the Arena) he could have done so.

In this you see all the hallmarks of bad storytelling because Lucas and Co. make the mistake of 'breaking the second rule'. Which is nominally that LOGICAL WITHIN IT'S OWN UNIVERSE is a hallmark of great screenplay work.

Three things that should be commented upon:

1. Anger can very much serve to _focus_ your attention and thus /bring out/ more alternatives, direct and otherwise. Obiwan doesn't have a hope in hades of beating Maul until he puts the objective of killing the man ahead of his own survival. And he is STILL on that 'high' when he chooses (very foolishly, given how slow it was) to effectively levitated over Maul's head when the 'smart move' was to fip across the pit (out of saber reach and amplified by a leg-push). While drawing his saber to him.

2. One of the few cool things Lucas did with Anakin was to make all his Force usages 'casual'. Because it is in that ease of use that you show something is mastered. The scenes with Padme and the floating fruit come to mind. So too does the scene with his "Excuse me..." falling-pursuit. All the other moments are hallmarks of 'Say Never Show' testimonialism (You are the strongest etc. etc.) which is hack filmmaking in action.

3. The Dark Side was supposedly peaking. Which (apparently) means that whatever precognitive awareness Obiwan has should be down to a second or two at most. While Vader 'fully opened to his feelings' should be able to see multiple outcomes 8-10-20 seconds down the road.

CONCLUSION:
You can't show opposed illustrations of anger and outcome based on equally 'dumb moments' and not expect a big SOD kill as the designated hero factor comes in. What Obiwan did on Mustafar was neither particularly ingenious nor something which ANY other Jedi, let alone one with all the power of Anakin's midis, would have fallen for. Because they would have had the ability _Through The Force_ to change the physics of the moment. Even as they had the insight to see which choice was most viable. Jumping into your enemy's blade arc was neither.

This combines with the utter idiocy of Obiwans 'mercy' (when it was not his choice but the Last Jedi Council Masters _order_ to /kill/ Anakin) to make the entire ending as unbelievable as Vader's last stereotypical yell of frustration. I honestly don't know whether Lucas intended this as a straight up adaptation of '30's serialism' or if he really thought any of it had a point. Either way, times have changed, the willingness of a more sophisticated audience to accept melodrama for it's own sake is less, and so he _Blew It_. Completely.


Saberist.

 

Saberist, this is your last warning. Stay on the specific topic. Not every thread is an occasion to bash the entire PT.

 

I don't understand how his post is not "on the specific topic." Will you please explain?

 

A movie is supposed to be an imitation of reality, not real life. It just has to be plausable enough for the audience (Not scientists, geologists, astronomers or the like) to allow them to suspend their belief. In this case, the interactions with the environments has to serve two purposes

1) to help push the plot forward
2) to entertain

There are SO many things that we could say are fake or unrealistic about Star Wars (I.e. lightsabers, the force, the way these ships are able to maneuver in space, etc). But at the end of it all, it's just fantasy movie.

 

Obi-wan's not winning or losing, but he is tiring out. This is evident when he inhales as he slowly raises his saber, before Anakin makes his jump over him to land on the other side of the lava droid. He's tiring out, but he is genuine when he warns Anakin not to try and make the jump.

 

again....I really didn't expect this many responses.....so glad this topic is generating genuine interest and discussion

 

Darth Mateous,

Think about what you just said. Now ask yourself WHY it has to be 'utterly unrealistic' to grab an audience's attention, Indeed, _I find_ that the generally More Believable a situation is, the more it grabs hold. This being the very element which 'real consequences to real situations' **intensity** of ROTS and its PG-13 rating made VASTLY more appealing to even the 'younger generation' audience than TPM and AOTC did.

Realism as much as anything immerses your senses to the extent that you WANT to believe in the fantastic. Not that you skip over it looking for what comes next.


Darth Sinister,

FINE.

You want 'high drama' and /sly/ strategems? _Let's Do It_.

Anakin leaps. Anakin flies so high that he MAKES the jump. Movie Stereotype broken. As the audience gasps and then snickers.

Obiwan /acts/ neither surprised nor particularly impressed. Audience wonders what's up with Mister Retentive.

Anakin again begins to lead with his Schwarz, coming on Very Fast, perhaps even celerically amplified. But all linear. All 'Comin' to Git Sum' straightup motion rather than measured will and controlled pacing, facing and spacing, the three fundamentals of all swordwork.

And thus very obvious in the physicality of his intent.

As now, heeding Mace's words (as the ROTS novelization implies) we see **Exactly What It Is That Makes Obiwan A Soresu MASTER**.

For though it is humble and 'entirely defensive', when the attack comes to the followers of Form III, they are invincible.

As Master Kenobi starts to move his blade with the elegance and style of a warrior commited past living or dying and ONLY in the moment of a series of blade arcs that move as they did in the Arena on Geonosis.

Only faster. And then FASTER. And then FASTER.

And all the while Anakin is trying to keep up. But he's tired from his leap and run-back too to the extent the audience knows, even if they don't have the technical games-speak to vocalize it, _'That he's expended his Force Points for that melee round'_.

And suddenly 'getting it' he backs away, looking for an opening, maybe a lose rock to throw or something on a catwalk to bring crashing down. Or even just the space to set up his own blade pattern. But in his rush, he's gotten too close, impaled his own vector on his impulsivenes, failed to _learn_ the lesson of Geonosis.

Which is that it was always Darth Vader who was acting rashly. But it's always Anakin who pays for it.

And so there is no more time for ex-Jedi because he never /made time/ for wisdom before.

As Obiwan's blade catches Anakin's tilts over his own wrist, reverses in the same cut and swings back up THROUGH through the arc, not of the saber but the hand holding it. Because Obiwan is practicing what is called 'live hands' in Kenjutsu and thus not holding his saber.

Indeed, one might almost say that _The Will Of The Force Is_.

And down goes Anakin, bent double with pain. And Obiwan backs off, not too far, and says nothing. And up comes Anakin as the Saber flies to his left fist and that rock the camera panned to comes flying at Obiwan's face. And Obiwan takes both in one movement that is simple for all it's elegant quickness. Preempting the resumption of the fight.

And now, in pure desperation _not to lose_ as much as survive, because he _never_ counted on Obiwan to have his back, always assumed that he wouldn't need to, Anakin face twisted in terrifying pain, raises his stumps bring the very Lava Itself to his aid (showing you 'what could have been') as Obiwan looks on, /tired/ in a heart broken sense of no repeal or rapproachment because the intensity of combat will not give _the time_ he needs to talk Anakin down anymore.

And so with a twisted look of 'You _just never learn boy_', he raises his hand.

And then there is a (silent thru The Force) cry from above as Padme` screams in the early pangs of premature labor. And in that same instant Obiwan throws Anakin into the lava with the same 'just enough' = STILL MASSIVE display of Teek as once

 

Obi-wan could sense that Anakin was planning to jump over him. He knows him too well. Knows that he wants to show off as he always does. He's trying to stop the fight. He's not baiting him. If he was baiting him, he sure as hell wouldn't say "Don't do it." now would he?


Not that I'm married to the idea that he was baiting him, but if he was going to do such thing to an overconfident, brash person such as Anakin, saying "Don't do it" would be just about the surest way to entice him to do it.

 

So you basically want Obi-Wan to be a cold, heartless ass to Anakin?

What about their 13 years of friendship together?

 

I guess it's ok that the Jedi make the mistake of letting the Sith win in the PT, because the Jedi Return in the OT. I guess after analyzing all the debate we've had recently, I'd put Luke Skywalker as the best jedi in the history of the galaxy. He's the only one that makes good decisions. I'm glad he didn't listen to Yoda in ESB. That would have been a big mistake. Yoda's never right.

 

Don't mistake my position as one of "it has to be utterly unrealistic" to be entertaining. I'm actually saying the opposite: it doesn't have to be 100% realistic in order for the audience to suspend their belief and enjoy the movie. Again, movies are supposed to be an imitation of reality. They're supposed to be believable enough within the context of the world (meaning genre) created. In the Star Wars Universe, the Mustafar duel was plenty believable. In real life, no way. But, then again, if GL made everything realistic, the movie less exciting (maybe even boring).

I agree with your statement that "generally" the more believable the situation is, the more it "grabs hold". I'm not exactly sure what you mean by grabs hold, but I take it to mean the more we can relate to the story and the characters. (If I'm mistaken, let me know.) However, Star Wars is fantasy. So the planets, environments, creatures and elements don't need to be believable for the film to "grab" us. It's the characters that need to do that.

The audience can't relate to Obi-Wan's ability to wield a lightsaber, jump up seemingly impossible distances, or use the force. However, the audience can relate to Obi-Wan being torn over watching his pupil fall prey to the dark side (Similar to how one might feel if their student became a drug addict).

The audience can relate to Obi-Wan feeling heartbroken by having to fight and permanently dismember his best friend (Like when someone has to shoot their alcoholic father who's beating their mother.)

The audience can relate to Anakin wanting to keep the love of his life from harm at all costs. (Who wouldn't want to keep their family safe?)

The audience can relate to Padme trying to make sense of her life and the future of her husband and baby through the chaos of war. (Any woman married to a soldier could relate with this. Any child of a soldier could too.)

These are just a few examples. It's the characters, their emotions and their plights that that are meant keep the audience grounded in reality, while the environment, action sequences, and fantastic elements are meant to "wow" and entertain the audience.


To quote Maximus:

"Were you not entertained?!"

 

Obi-Wan could be using reverse psychology with Anakin, maybe partly. But I also think Obi was feeling guilt.

OBI-WAN: I have failed you, Anakin.
ANAKIN and OBI-WAN confront each other on the lava river.
ANAKIN: I should have known the Jedi were plotting to take over . . .
OBI-WAN: Anakin, Chancellor Palpatine is evil.
ANAKIN: From my point of view, the Jedi are evil.
OBI-WAN: then you are lost!
ANAKIN: This is the end for you, My Master.
. . .
OBI-WAN: Send me to kill the Emperor. I will not kill Anakin.
YODA: To fight this Lord Sidious, strong enough, you are not.
OBI-WAN: He is like my brother . . . I cannot do it.


MASTER_DOODOO
Yoda's never right.

The darkside clouds your judgement

 

I'm not saying I want Obi-wan to be any particular way. I'm not even saying I really believe that he baited Anakin. I'm mainly playing devil's advocate and saying that it could be argued that Obi baited Anakin.

I would rationlize this by saying that Obi was tired and desperate, as well as intently driven by duty to end this, once and for all. Having realized that this could just go on and on, he is wise enough to realize where his true advantage lies (and where Anakin's true weakness lies). Therefore he would deploy strategy instead of physical/Force prowess to bring the destructive conflict to an end.

 

I don't buy that. That's not in Obi-Wan's character. He is in all six movies (in some form or another) and we've never seen anything that would suggest he would do that.

I don't think Obi-Wan's fatigue had anything to do with it. His warning to Anakin that he had the high ground was indeed his final warning to Anakin. It was his final plea, really, to avoid doing what he knew deep inside that he had to do. He didn't want to hurt Anakin. He fought defensively throughout the battle, while Anakin was the agressor. This was because he couldn't bring himself to kill Anakin. (As he told Yoda). But Anakin's arrogance forced Obi-Wan's hand. No baiting involved.

 

Yeah, I have to agree that it's not in his character. I believe that Obi-Wan sincerely didn't want to hurt Anakin.

 

Actually, Jaydi69, that post I made above was directed at Saberist. Sorry for the confusion.