ITT we discuss why Luke's Jedi Order is made of fail

That's very untrue. Caedus's class of sith philosophy was to get enough power to prevent a constantly warring galaxy. He wants to minimize the chaos and destruction. Think about a Palpatine that's not corrupt, racist and kill happy.

The major problem is there is no fine line between your right and wrong which creates major problems.

There's nothing to ever suggest that Jacen wanted Jaina to join him.

 

Well, what's the alternative? Jaina helps Jacen save Tenel Ka and then goes on her merry way? Unlikely, given the way Jacen's fascist little government works. Jaina helps Jacen save Tenel Ka and Jacen turns himself in for Jedi Order administrative discipline? Come on.

 

That was his and Lumiya's justification for his slide toward the dark side. Once he was a full Sith however, I think you'll find that minimizing destruction was the last thing on his mind.

 

So what are they supposed to do when faced with a Sith who is too powerful to be captured?

Edit: As for whether or not Luke's Order was 'made of fail', I think it largely depends on what one believes is the role of a Jedi. If the role of a Jedi is to fight off threats to galactic peace, they've done a decent job of that. If it's to stop the Dark Side, they've done a mediocre job. If it's to be pacifists who solve all problems non-violently, they've done a horrible job.

 

Form a posse and hope your chosen one doesn't betray you.

 

That doesn't have a great track record.

 

when was it ever said that the role of the jedi was to be a pacifist?

they carry swords!

 

Yes. A lot of Imperial apologists don't seem to get that Mace Windu's posse went up to put Chancellor Palpatine under lawful arrest, and Chancellor Palpatine responded to said lawful arrest by yanking out a weapon and killing all of them.

You know, as is common and accepted among heads of state in democratic societies who have been accused of high crimes. Just like Richard Nixon pulled an Uzi out from under his jacket and gunned down the entire House Judiciary Committee.

 

Caedus was pretty corrupt
creating a nanokiller is corrupt

the problem with Caedus wanting to minimize chaos and destruction, is that he causes more destruction to make that happen

in a battle where another officer of equal or probably greater rank, tells him that they have accepted the enemy's surrender, Caedus' response is to continue pushing the attack until the entire opposition is crushed

that isnt minimizing destruction, that is creating more just to create more

 

"Lawful arrest"? Even supposing you have evidence to back up that assertion, it pretty much runs contrary to the whole of Palpatine's story arc throughout the PT.

 

Just like Richard Nixon pulled an Uzi out from under his jacket and gunned down the entire House Judiciary Committee.
This is the most amusing mental image I have had in a long time.
"Who's kicking who around now?"

On that note, vote Micheal Willson for President. He defends your safety with an obscene amount of firepower and BURNING AMERICAN JUSTICE!

 

The Jedi are the law enforcement officers of the Republic. Part of the reason for their existence is to arrest people for "crimes against civilization". Orchestrating the Clone War obviously qualifies, even under the ridiculous expansion of executive power that took the Clone War itself as a justification.

Whether they could've *proven* it is another matter, but proof is for the courts, not for the LEOs. Arrest is not the same as conviction.

If you're talking about whether under Palpatine's new imperial-executive atmosphere of government Palpatine would have been *convicted* for crimes against civilization, that's obviously doubtful -- Mace Windu acknowledges as much. But they did make the effort. If Mace's posse had been an "assassination mission" then standing in front of the Chancellor and making their intentions known would've been rather daft.

And I think it fits perfectly with Palpatine's character arc. He purposely set up the political atmosphere of the galaxy where the Jedi would be forced into a constitutional crisis and then take the losing side -- Mace Windu still had it in his head that they could actually take Palpatine into custody and go before the courts with evidence of Palpatine's malfeasance as Darth Sidious and make some kind of difference that way. At the very least, he had it in his head that they had to *try* this ridiculous plan, give it at least token effort, before simply beheading Palpatine.

The fact that Palpatine reacts to this arrest not with a "My goodness, you think I'm the mysterious Darth Sidious? What nonsense! The courts shall surely bear it out to be so!" but by pulling out a weapon and gleefully murdering all the Jedi who came to arrest him only seals his guilt, by any sane reading of pre-Imperial law. The fact that under the Empire what Palpatine did *wasn't a crime* is the fundamental difference between the lex rex of the Republic and the rex lex of the Empire.

 

I never said they couldn't use a weapon or a lightsaber. I just said Jedi shouldn't kill with them. They shouldn't kill period. The difference between a Consular and a Guardian is that the Consular will use his/her blade to disarm their opponent. The Guardian will use his/her blade to kill their opponent without question. So in a way, a Consular is more skilled with a lightsaber than a Guardian.


And why is Luke's Order made of fail? Because everyone is a brainless murdering Jedi Guardian and not peaceful and wise Jedi Consulars.

 

Caedus' "Leviathan" theory of Hobbesian government doesn't aim at minimizing *destruction* or minimizing *suffering*.

It aims at minimizing *conflict*, which is not the same thing at all. It is true that one gigantic center of power that constantly terrorizes, oppresses and kills everyone around it minimizes conflict, at least in theory. (In practice, people are motivated by emotions other than fear, and so the Tarkin Doctrine failed, as Leia so eloquently told the Moff herself. "The more you tighten your grip, Tarkin...")

It means that everyone will in theory be too terrified to fight each other, too terrified to resist. But they won't be *happy*, they just won't disagree or resist or fight. It's an ideology that prizes the simple lack of conflict, the ideal of obedience and conformity, over anything else -- that says a "healthy" and "good" government is a government that always gets what it wants, not a government in which people are happy or free.

It's a stupid ideology, in other words, and Caedus was stupid for buying into it.

 

what if the dark sider is so powerful that the jedi are not able to capture him? are they supposed to just keep trying and failing and letting people die while he does evil and kills people? should they keep trying to catch him and have him escape over and over again?

 

In case you hadn't noticed, a lightsaber is hardly a "less-lethal" weapon.

Yeah, except no. That's not true. Guardians are better than Consulars at all aspects of fighting, including fighting to disarm (if necessary) as opposed to fighting to kill. (Note that while disarming moves are taught in real-life fencing, there is no school of fencing designed to specifically *only* disarm opponents instead of hit them. Because this is impossible. Fighting is about taking whatever opportunities are presented to you to stop your opponent before they stop you, whether the opportunity given to you is to smack the sword out of his hand or stab him in his ribcage.)

Guardians are better at the subtle use of the Force than lightsaber play. This does *not* mean they are trained to "disarm" in combat -- in the old-school RPG it mostly meant they were the Force-power support for Guardians in combat encounters, using their control of the Force to help the Guardians gain the needed bonuses to kill their foes.

...Yes. So many lives would've been spared if they'd taken the time to *negotiate* with the Yuuzhan Vong before the Vong started killing everyone.

Seriously, I'm not a very pro-violence kind of guy, but you're actually making me hate my own position by seeming to try to embody the strawman version of it.

 

I've reached the exact opposite conclusion. Lukes order is made of fail because it is run by counsulars who care more about keeping their philosophy than acting it out.

Rather than do their duty and fight for their people they sat out the Vong war until half the galaxy was overun. They should have gone Clone Wars style on the Vong. Every jedi becomes a general and they then procede to utterly pound the Vong to dust, then sign a peace treaty and move on. After the war they can ask themselves, "was that right?"

They should have got all the masters, walked into the senate chamber placed everyone there under arrest for allowing Jacen to become dictator, arrested(killed) Jacen and be done with it. Then they can ask themselves, "Was that right?" after they've done the deed.

The Jedi don't answer to the law, they are the law.

Ben Skywalker is a light of hope for me. Rather than debate philosophy he knows when to just snipe some politician and do his duty.

What the galaxy needs are Terminator Jedi.

 

At least they would be trying. Besides if a villain is avoiding capture, he can easily avoid death also. So resorting to killing isn't going to help either. Some villains are just hard to catch. But the heroes always get them. See how Batman caught the Joker finally.

 

Besides if a villain is avoiding capture, he can easily avoid death also.
Not necessarily. Capturing requires a precise amount of force to disable the foe without serious risk of killing him. Since dead is dead, if you seek to kill, you can attack with everything you have. Go overboard to be sure.

For example, if you are far away but have a projectile weapon and a clear shot at the target's head, capturing is impossible, but killing is easy.

 

If we're talking in terms of TV Tropes rather than arguing realistically, then do you realize the SHEER NUMBER OF TIMES we see a villain get caught, the heroes turn over the villain to "face justice", and then the villain escape to do the same damn thing all over again?

Seriously. If we actually treat the Batman franchise as a single ongoing continuity, the number of innocents who have died horrible, agonizing deaths because Batman keeps sending the Joker back to that revolving-door joke they call Arkham Asylum is inexcusable.

 

Earthknight, where did you ever get the idea that just because Guardians focus on lightsaber training and other mundane combat skills over the mystic wizard approach of Consulars, that Guardians are more likely to kill people? Where is it ever stated that Guardians enjoy killing or are in any way less of a Jedi than their Consular counterparts?

Terms like "brainless" and "murdering" should not even be used in conjunction with the title of Jedi, no matter what that Jedi's specialty.

"Peaceful and wise Jedi Consulars" are just as much to blame for the Jedi Civil War, if not more. Tell me, what would you suggest the Jedi do in the face of a threat that cannot be stopped by pacifism, such as the Mandalorian Wars or the Yuuzhan Vong War?

 

I think I should note, as an aside, that my preferred character build for Revan was as a Scout/Consular.

The Consular mindset seems to make a lot more sense to me as the mindset of the kind of person who would become Darth Revan than the other options available. A canny, manipulative bastard who's more used to giving orders than taking them.

 

After the Joker killed how many people?

I mean we could compromise. Jedi could just give their foes a lombotomy.

And DarthUr, thanks for the new sig, I nearly fell out of my chair when I read it.

 

First of all, Jedi shouldn't even be getting involved in wars. You don't see our local police officers running around Iraq do you? The only time they should get involved is in the event a dark sider is in one of the militaries.

And...Luke's Order aren't brainless Guardians!? Did you see how long it took them to figure out that Jacen was a Sith and killed Mara?

 

What should they do then? Run off and be hermits while the galaxy dies? Because the Mandalorian War was going so well for the Republic before the Jedi decided to fight. You know what, Luke shouldn't have fought in the GCW. Let them blow up Yavin IV and rule the galaxy with an iron fist. Let the Vong control the galaxy and kill every single being that lived there because it isn't right to fight in a war. The point of the Jedi was to save civilization from falling. They won't really succeed if they sit on their asses while everyone begs them to go off and fight.