PT Jedi Council vs. Darth Sidious

The problem with Palpatine for the Jedi is the fact he is a high ranking political figure and proving anything against him would be difficult. His plan had been brewing for so long that by the time he was close to assuming full power there wasn’t a clear strategy in how to tackle him and dismantle the web he had created. This led to the arrest attempt led by Mace, and Palpatine would’ve had a fair idea this would be their play.

Thinking about those sensitive final moments before the four Jedi arrive at Palpatine’s quarters, I wonder myself how I’d approach things as the Jedi Order, with the entire future of their organisation at risk of being destroyed forever. I understand their desire to finally act and have a sense of control after sleepwalking to their doom for so long. But that arrest attempt was not organised as it should’ve been. They were rushed.

The Jedi weren’t to know this, but Order 66 was only given after the death of Mace and the other three Jedi. If you did kill Palpatine before then perhaps it’s possible the clones wouldn’t have been such a threat. No response they took would’ve been clean or without fallout, but ultimately I think a full on kill attempt with Yoda, Obi-Wan and all available Jedi should’ve been their move.

Get rid of the threat and make absolutely sure of it. Explain the why to the galaxy afterwards, because explaining beforehand means Palpatine is alive and people may never believe you regardless. That’s the consequence of them leaving this situation to brew for so long. The Jedi were probably going to be hunted no matter what at that point.

 

See the Jedi in all their glory really had huge egos and it was on center stage with the confrontation in Palps office. Should they have waited to confront Sidious? Yes, but to say, we're going to arrest him and put him in trial and then thinking to yourself, umm he's got control over too much we better just saber swipe him especially after he took out three of my Jedi boyz was going down the wrong path which Anakin made sure happened.
If they took some senators with them along with more Jedi or wait till Yoda and Obi Wan arrived, they may have avoided that order 66.

 

I also think there would’ve been a viewpoint from others of not really caring all that much if Palpatine was a Sith Lord. That’s a feud between two belief systems. It would be more about trying to prove to senators and the wider galaxy that Palpatine orchestrated all the turmoil.

 

Good point as it's simply the Jedi's belief system that they would have to put into account and why would a bunch of greedy senators care if Palpatine practices Sith magic..they wouldn't care and they would want to just have peace or prolong the war depending on which senator we speak of. The Jedi are really on an island here.

 

Depends what they know about Sith.

Not all the Senators are greedy, you know.

 

The only way I could see it ending okay for the Jedi is if they could have produced absolute proof to the Senate of everything Palps had been up to, orchestrating the Clone Wars and so on. If a majority of the senators had believed that proof, maybe a vote of no confidence would have been passed. Barring that proof, what could have been done? Starting rumors that could not be supported by proof would have fed into Palpatine's narrative of the Jedi conspiring against him and made him look like the victim. Arresting him even if that could have been successfully done would be of no use without proof. And presumably the judges have for some years been appointed by either Palpatine directly or someone who in turn owes him loyalty, that would be an obvious step for a would-be dictator. That leaves assassination, which would have led to the Jedi Order being disgraced, senior Jedi either being prosecuted in the courts and probably executed or having to flee into exile, and most importantly the Jedi's reputation being mud. Bottom line, the Council left it far too late in the day to move against Palpatine.

 

For one thing, the Council could have provided Anakin therapy and paid attention to his feelings. He was a special case due to beginning his training well after infancy. They should have treated as such. Their no attachments policy bit them in the butt. Sidious Palpatine made certain to use this lack of attention to his advantage, as seen in this deleted scene. Some of this dialogue is in the ROTS novelization.

Personally, I still contend that Qui-Gon would have been more adept at listening to and respecting Anakin's emotional needs. Obi-Wan was getting there, but Qui-Gon understood that Jedi are more than Jedi. They are beings with needs that need to be addressed in various ways. His view of the Living Force (a la living in the moment) meshes better with the concept of situational ethics than the Council's view of destiny and sameness.

 

You can bring Palpatine to heel without using any of that. You'd have to do it sub rosa, but you could do it.

Boy, what a wonderful scene that is. Too bad they cleaved most of it out of the picture. One of my faves. Thanks for posting it.

 

Here's how you stop Order 66. It's Post 10.

Be mindful, for this to work, I had to construct a contingency where Finis Valorum is still alive and get him and his wife involved.

Saga - PT - Midnight in the Garden: The (Im)possible Redemption of the Emperor | Jedi Council Forums (theforce.net)

 

Anakin didn't need "therapy" or "attention to his feelings". The Jedi never neglected to give him guidance. Anakin knew his teachings and what he should do, he knew right from wrong and chose wrong.

The fact that Palpatine indulged Anakin's selfishness and seduced him to do the wrong thing doesn't make it right, or the Jedi wrong. Quite the opposite.

 

Well, but it wasn't guidance this child could use.

Admittedly, he does know right from wrong, BUT

He probably didn't suspect Palpatine was about to ask him to kill all the Jedi when he knelt and said yes, and once he does kneel and say yes, he's now killed Mace Windu. (Or helped Palpatine do this, almost as bad.) Once he cuts off Mace Windu's hand and Palpatine finishes him off ... he's kind of locked himself in. He's in big trouble and the road back to the Jedi would be problematic at best; plus he believes he would be sacrificing Padme, which Yoda's "guidance" is NOT helping him with.

He DID go to Yoda; he did try; but what Yoda has to say is like hearing Greek to him.

 

He went to Yoda and told him half-truths. Its not like he opened up to him, he still wants his cake and eat it. And, why should it sound Greek to him. He's a seasoned Jedi Knight - he felt insulted at not being made a Master - but doesn't understand what Yoda is telling him? He preferred Palpatine's answer - the great snake oil salesman that he is.

 

Oh?

He tried but didn't do. He had the choice between the right, selfless path and the wrong, selfish path and he chose to walk the latter instead of the former. And he didn't do it by mistake, he knew that it was the wrong thing to do, but he chose to give into his attachment and fear. Once he gave into it, he decided he had to rationalize his choice because he thought there was no way out. So he did the Emperor's bidding and pretended that the Jedi were making a power play and had to be killed.

 

Why would you open up to someone who's going to get very upset you got married? I will say, Anakin did tell Yoda all the most basic facts. What Yoda had to say was, "Just don't be attached."

Which is, um, nice, but most of us can't do that. If I told you your dad was going to die tomorrow, I imagine you might be quite upset by that. It's extremely difficult for most of us to just let go of people we're very attached to. So that sort of advice is of limited use to an essential child who's been deprived of a normal life and of his one attachment figure at the age of nine.

This person isn't going to know HOW. Sorry.

Now, as to the question of, you know, killing all the Jedi and helping a mass murderer take over the galaxy ... one would hope a person would see reason. But Anakin has been led down the garden path. He doesn't realize Palpatine is going to murder all the Jedi and take over the galaxy. He knows nothing about Order 66. He doesn't realize he's been lied to, and at the time he attacks Windu, he thinks Palpatine can be safely taken into custody.

 

Which does lead one to wonder why he did, in fact, obey orders and kill all the Jedi when told. What's he thinking there?

In any case, you still could have stopped Palpatine without firing one more shot. It would have taken some special circumstances and some cool rational thought, but it could have been done.

 

Cool rational thought ... no wonder Anakin couldn't get the job done.

You're asking me to be rational. That is something I know I cannot do.

 

The minute he has said that, I knew it was a BIG RED FLAG. A Jedi is supposed to be rational, level-headed. Flying off the handle, reacting on emotions is not something they’d do.

 

Palpatine won because the OT needed to happen

 

I don't think there is any easy way to succeed.. any of their main options all lead to Palpy's success. If they refuse the army or become conscientious objectors they lose popularity and Palpy gets a big opportunity to turn the public against them and follow up with a order 66. If they try to convince Amidala to keep Valorem, they lose her support after it goes exactly as Palps said it would, and it still ends the same also this early they have absolutely zero reason to suspect Palps. Remember they only notice a cloud of darkness around the Chancellor during RotS. Even finding proof of the inhibitor chips would only give them warning, as obedience chips wouldn't cause a stir in the senate, it would be expected. Order 66 wasn't something they could use either, since it was an emergency order. One thing that might have made a difference is if they gave Amidala a full Jedi detail and she didn't leave in AotC and Palps doesn't get emergency powers, although I doubt that lasts forever, since if he makes the war worse once it really gets going he could probably get them "reluctantly" without Amidala's support. The only thing that might have changed things is if Yoda was on coursant, but again Palps would wait until he and obi wan were gone. Maybe if Mace had more trust in Anakin and had him warn all the other Jedi of the Clones turning on them, or if he had had someone else do that and had brought Anakin with them and they had agreed to keep Palps alive they could've managed to at least survive as an order although Palps probably still has quite a few cards even then. I believe if Mace and Yoda had both been off world and Ki Adi or Plo Koon had fought him to the same result, Mace and Yoda working together would absolutely defeat Palps in a 2 v 1.

 

Technically this is considered to be legends and not canon, however if it's true why couldn't the Jedi Council talk someone like Padme or Bail Organa to enact Order 65, which was the following.

https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Order_65

 

Doubt you could convince the senate or the Security Council. Bail and Padme isn't enough.

 

Like it says there needs to be a majority in the Senate and/or Security Council declaring him unfit for office for the order to be enacted and I doubt Padme and Bail are enough...

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And I think the presence of the Delegation of 2000 shows they had minimal support even after the fascist take over. The senate was well over 10k I believe.

 

When Mace was talking about having the Chancellor removed if he didn't give up his emergency powers after Grievous was killed, what was the plan they had for that?

Was it simply asking him to give them up, or did it change when Anakin said Palpatine was the Sith Lord they were looking for, so Mace decided to place him under arrest.