PT Jim Raynor's "RLM's Episode I - Review A Study in Fanboy Stupidity"

There's a lot of latent PT quotage -- or at least ROTS quotage -- in TFA, in my opinion. Equally, TFA acknowledges the prequels by doing a "dance" and steering itself around them, to not too blatantly repeat them, for one reason or another.

I also enjoy your thoughts as above. The "reshaping" you mention is a prime example of how even quoting the OT paradoxically leads one back to the PT. So there is, indeed, a complicated relationship between TFA and the prequels; or as I see things, anyway.

 

Certainly.

As I have said and shown on various threads it's very easy to find all sorts of prequel connections in TFA.

Now how much of that was actually meant to be there implicitly or just is going to be whether anyone wants it to be or likes it to be is another matter.

I would say the rather obvious quotage around Rey and Kylo Ren that traces back to TPM, AOTC and ROTS is quite evident.

The movies exist. That is the story. You can't get away from it and among the many things you really shouldn't do if you really want to get distance from the prequels is to bring objects of myth and power from Anakin Skywalker into the story or have the two new main protagonist and antagonist reflect Anakin's paths.

 

Yes, yes, yes. Absolutely. Also things like Kylo threatening to use a "Clone Army" if Hux doesn't get his stormtroopers in gear.

Not to mention the cold rivalry between Hux and Kylo. Sort of a progressive dimming of warmth:

> Han/Luke
> Anakin/Obi-Wan
> Hux/Kylo

And, well, they do live on a frigid base!

What is it with these male-male pairings?

Are you trying to say that TFA is, on some level, "a study in fanboy stupidity"?

But yeah, I quite agree with you.

It's especially powerful with the talisman of the lightsaber, which winds its way back to Luke, after its involvement in lengthy trials and tribulations that now span three trilogies.

 

That is what is so weird about TFA, it tries so hard to disconnect itself from the PT that it ends up connecting to the PT anyway. Take the clone remark. Many PT detractors criticizes the clones as being a toy army nobody cares about unlike real soldiers who are recruits. Then there is controversy over if the OT stormtroopers are ongoing clones or switched over to recruiting or drafting, which isnt helped by Lucas's flip flopping and contradicting statements and actions. Though many PT detractors prefer the recruits, the real stormtroopers to them. It seems JJ listened to them by making the FO stormtroopers non clones beyond doubt, even going so far as including Kylos remark. But then this begs a big question, if the FO has access to cloning, then why the hell did they not use it and use inferior army building tactics which results in major failures such as Finn and Plasma. Oh yeah, clones are icky PT elements despite stormtrooper cloning being stated by Lucasfilm as far back as 1978. Hux is an embodiment of the "real" argument many have pushed for, real sets, real locations, real models, real film, real troops, etc.

 

Finn was the first to be a problem for them. Before then, there'd been no glitches in the system. And even the clone army wasn't immune to clones who glitched against their programming, as seen in TCW.

 

The glitch in TCW contradicts the movie clones, as the cartoon clones rely on biochips as a mental override to force them to obey orders while the movie clones are genetically programmed docile and less independent to obey all orders without question as stated in AOTC. I made a few threads about the many differences between TCW and the PT such as the differing portrayals of the clones. Behind the scenes story goes that Filoni thought Palps plan in the PT was too infallible and needed weak points to put him at risk such as bio chips that can go haywire. I find Filoni's whole idea stupid.

 

I must say that, while I did sort of fear this before going to see it, I was pleasantly surprised to see that it was, from my perception, not the case at all. My view on this has improved over the past year, if anything

The third spoken line of the film refers directly to a concept originating in the PT. "Without the Jedi, there can be no balance in the Force."

Maz's description of the evolution of evil can pretty much be summed up as "This was the main threat in the first trilogy, then it became this in the original trilogy, now it's this"

The very fact that Anakin's/Vader's legacy plays such a key role, especially in the character of Kylo Ren, can be attributed to Anakin's portrayal. I might even say Kylo Ren is explicitly written as a foil to how we see it. The OT tells us very little aside from "he was a good man who was seduced to the dark side." The PT gives him as a conflicted hero tempted by evil. Meanwhile, his grandson is written as a wannabe villain tempted by good - the total opposite. I find it very difficult to believe that this wasn't explicitly made not to be the case because of the knowledge of this characterization

Aside from the fact that it is, in terms of continuity, quite distant from the PT - by 53 years, if I'm not mistaken

Get Ewan to voice cameo as Ghosti-Wan, but not have him appear to demand a Midi-chlorian count, and "They're avoiding the prequels! This is horrible!" sounds aloud from the fandom

 

Yes. And Lor San Tekka is clearly reminiscent of Dooku, who the "Anakin" guy then slays after "Dooku" taunts him about denying a part of himself.

"You cannot deny the truth that is your family."
"I sense great fear in you, Skywalker. You have hate, you have anger, but you don't use them."

LST's "balance" remark to Poe, and then his remark to Kylo, "You may try", are also an inverted dyad. This same dialogue occurs on Mustafar, but in reverse. Anakin first says to Obi-Wan, "You may try", right before their duel, and at the end of their confrontation, Obi-Wan laments that Anakin was meant to bring balance to the Force, "not leave it in darkness".

If you watch TFA after ROTS -- in other words, if you watch the movies in production order -- Kylo can rightly be apprehended as the second appearance or Second Coming of Anakin/Vader. Sort of a cosmic "clone". That, in turn, evokes a core theme articulated in TPM, or "The Beginning": "Always two there are, no more, no less." A line that pertains directly to the Sith, but could also be extended to other aspects of the saga.

LOL. Absolutely. There are many such references, happening at various levels of the narrative.

For instance, Han confronting Kylo on the bridge is like a synthesis of the confrontation scenes between Vader and Luke in ROTJ and Anakin and Obi-Wan ROTS. Maybe the most "Star Wars" moment in the movie: the deeper, more tragic side of the saga.

Also, TFA rather blatantly reuses ROTS sound effects at certain points, such as the clanking sound heard when Rey and Finn are hiding from Han and Chewie (you can hear this in ROTS when Anakin and Obi-Wan are hanging down the elevator shaft with Palpatine as the ship tilts over: marking the moment Obi-Wan *cough* awakens), and later, there's a clashing or scraping sound between the lightsabers of Kylo and Rey (Anakin's lightsaber) that is the sound of Anakin scissoring off Dooku's head, and when the ravine opens up between them, there's a material rending sound that is the sound of the collector arm being destroyed by the lava on Mustafar.

The sweet scene between Rey and Han when the Falcon has landed on Takodana is also something like a fusion of key scenes in TPM and AOTC. Firstly, when Rey runs out and soaks up the fragrant air on her own, standing near the edge of that lake, TFA seems to be quoting the meditation scene on Naboo, with Anakin stood Vader-like, between two pillars, after his nightmare, on Naboo. But when Han emerges and talks with Rey, the exchange and the setting (two characters -- one a mentor figure to the other -- talking in an idyllic forest environment, with the main transport ship of the movie just behind them) evoke the scene between Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan on Naboo after they land, with Qui-Gon telling Obi-Wan he foresees he will become a great Jedi Knight, just as Han flatters Rey and suggests she come and work for him and see the galaxy.

Plenty of other shots and design elements that echo, from the close-up on Finn's moody face as Kylo yells "TRAITOR!!!" (similar to a close-up of Yoda in ROTS as Sidious taunts him: "I have waited a long time for this moment, my little green friend"), to the shiny insides of Starkiller Base being a blend of the Death Star interiors of ANH and the gleaming insides of Theed Palace in TPM. When Hux is running into Snoke's chamber to report on the disintegrating base, he even slips on the floor in an echo of Padme and Maul slipping during the climactic action sequence as the heroes all fight to take back Naboo. There really are all kinds of links between TFA and the prequels, conscious or otherwise.

Perhaps the dualistic inclusion of both Alec and Ewan for a "movie within a movie" is the clearest indication that the ST is keen to acknowledge both trilogies. That or Rey being the third Skywalker -- or whoever she is (perhaps a Tusken Reyder: she has the clothing, she has the moves, she has the stick, she scavenges for metal, she has the general toughness, and she freaks out upon touching Anakin's lightsaber) -- on no less than a desert planet. Two may be the most elemental duplication, but three of something suggests the makings of a theme or a motif: a thing that keeps repeating; or the suggestion of something undeniable. So even if the makers did want to distance TFA from the prequels, they only proved Obi-Wan's warning to Luke when he refused to face Vader again: "You cannot escape your destiny."

 

Excellent observations, Cryogenic! A few replies to them:

It wouldn't surprise me in the slightest if several sound effects were reused. Ben Burtt's still on board and has been since '77, doubling up PT references with Matt Wood returning to the role of sound designer alongside him. Which has me wondering why so many of the lightsaber clashes/activations are different. I'll give that the unstable crossguard lightsaber could have a very different sound, but even the blue lightsaber sounds different for the most part. Rather interesting

And from what I have seen, it looks to me that Abrams is actually a pretty big fan of ROTS. Even a Palpatine line is used in Rey's trippy vision. A highlight of the film, if you ask me.
In addition, I know for sure in an interview, John Boyega placed it in third place for his favourite, above ROTJ, even if he did seem somewhat reluctant to say. Because that mean, nasty internet is gospel, amirite. Either way, this seems to either vivaciously deny or vivaciously confirm the stereotype of "the prequels suck except for the third one which was decent." But it's important to note that, even though a decade had passed, it was the freshest in everyone's mind, and there is little doubt it seems to largely be fondly looked upon as a brilliant masterpiece maybe similar to other movies in the golden age of film, an age since passed, from my point of view. I wonder if even things like Kylo Ren's hairstyle would be a conscious reference to Anakin's once he was free of the mandatory Padawan braid. It's almost something counter intuitive, illogical, given the character's choice to almost always wear a helmet that conceals his entire head. How does such a fabulous head of hair even fit in there and remain so good looking even after removing it?

And then of course you have key moments that are now being seen for a third time, such as the trend of the old mentor character being killed off around the end. The only mixup this time being that Han is not a Jedi, but I'd say that this instance is, like many "second repeats" we've observed, a combination of the first two times. Obviously mimicking Qui-Gon's death in that he's impaled by a red lightsaber, but also taking note from Obi-Wan's in that there is much more emphasis on the characters' reactions. More than an adequately named "Big No" and then moving on to take care of business

And as for important conversations - again, as the PT was intentionally, if not subtly at times, made to recreate scenes within the OT, it's not entirely certain if it was meant to reference one, the other, or both. Inevitably, if Abrams, Johnson, or Treverrow intend to match something in the OT, they'll transitively match something in the PT whether it was intended or not

As far as concepts first devised in the PT, I mentioned Midi-chlorians. Ironically, even when asked if they appear in the movie (which is a bit of a paradox. How does a microscopic life form contained within cells "appear" without a microscope of some kind? That's tantamount to asking if oxygen appears!) and denying, he seems to rely on them just as much as George. Maybe even a little more. As I am in the Rey Skywalker camp (If she is not Luke's daughter, she's definitely Leia's) then it holds true she would inherit the same 20k+ per cell. Easily explains her natural skill in the Force, which is an otherwise unexplained trait without knowledge of how the Midis function

And I am 100% sure this isn't meant to reference it at all. But is anyone else reminded of Anakin's dislike of sand by Rey's "I didn't think there was this much green in the whole galaxy" line?
I guess that even fits her dualism with Kylo Ren. Embodying the positives of Anakin's character while he embodies the negatives. Sand and green, total opposites. Anakin expresses his negative opinion of the negative; Rey expresses her positive opinion of the positive. It's almost like using statement of the obvious to imply that innate theme

I honestly didn't think I'd come out liking the for-so-long mythical Episode VII. Yet here I am, rambling praise and analysis for it just as I have the last six. Here's hoping, VIII and IX~~

 

That may be, but it was never explained in the movies that the chips weren't there, and since TCW is canon... we're stuck with that version.

 

A canon war is the last thing I want to get into, but I will just bring up -

Canon is what you make of it. A lot of casual moviegoers won't bother to or even know about the rest of the canon, what is and what isn't. For some, such as myself, the saga alone is enough

If you choose to accept it, like it or dislike it, great. If you don't, great. Whatever makes you happiest with the art of storytelling, one of the most subjective things out there

 

So I don't really like to engage in a lot of gossip, but I've heard this rumor that Ben Burtt, despite being credited, didn't actually make any sound effects for TFA because he had a falling out with JJ. I've heard this from someone in the movie industry who has contacts at Lucasfilm. And so they ended up obtaining only some of his sound effects instead of all of them. I don't have any article links or anything like that, but I do believe this person. And so I'm guessing that Ben Burtt was credited in order to avoid the drama of having to explain why he wasn't credited.

Anyway, the upcoming 3D Blu-ray of TFA is going to have some bonus features about the sound in the movie. If we don't really hear from Ben Burtt in those documentaries, then it might lend some credence to this rumor.

 

I don't want to see a canon war either, neither the films or any spinoff material are correct or incorrect, just different takes sometimes. Canon and continuity are not the same thing and fans often confuse the two as the same. Canon is just a level of officialness and not how well it fits. Lastly, George once told Filoni that continuity is for wimps, so he was not too concerned making sure his stories fit together, only fans are. Many other writers are that way too.

I remember a story about JJ, using cgi to remove Anakin's podracing banner from Maz's place because he did not want the scene to be about podracing which is an odd excuse. The irony is he brought attention to it by removing it then announcing it officially.

 

Thank you for the praise.

I found the sound design of TFA reasonably effective (like many people, I especially enjoyed the crackling and hissing of Kylo's ad hoc saber), if a little underwhelming.

theMaestro has provided a rather tidy -- if, as they admit, slightly gossip-y -- answer to your observations:

Ha! He did sort of cough into his handkerchief, metaphorically speaking, didn't he? Yeah, uh, ROTS, bruv, nah, that one was bare wicked. Wait. Forget I said that, yo. The OT. Chewie! The Falcon! Harrison! I love you, Harrison!!! I love Daisy. I love Kathy. OMG, you guys, check it out. I'm in Star Wars and I get to be a stormtroopah! Sick as, man. Completely radio rental. U get me?

That's interesting. I think there's a lot of quiet love kicking around for it. It's like everyone is secretly gay for the prequels but in the closet. Either way, I hear you on the freshness of it in people's minds; and yes, that likely played a role in ROTS getting its share of references in TFA.

That's a very good observation. I wish I still had that sort of hair! You could build on what you said and say it is also reflective of Vader in a broader way. Notice that Vader has always had an ambiguous quality. Consider TESB. He sounds like some deranged robot, but he has human motivations. Similarly, TESB shows Vader from "inside" the mask, from the back and the front, but in neither instance are we "truly" looking *at* Vader. The back is just damaged skin, while the front is Luke's own face in a spooky dream sequence. ROTJ intensifies this evasive, fragmentary, overlapping quality by showing Vader as both an old man, and now, with the Blu-ray/HD alteration, a youthful Hayden Christensen (appropriate: Blu-ray/Blue-Ghost/Who is Rey???). Vader is many things and none of those things. He is also the product of multiple performers contributing something, from the mind of Lucas, to Ralph McQuarrie's steady hand, to David Prowse's physical acting, the stunt performance of Bob Anderson, the voice of James Earl Jones, the music of John Williams, the lighting qualities of a scene, the insinuating way people talk about Vader and respond to him, even our own projections of who Vader is. The "Frankenstein" quotation in ROTS, in my opinion, denoting Vader's birth, was very apt of Lucas.

Sorry, a rambling paragraph that got away from your point. Illogical, yes. Of course, that remarkable "helmet" of hair, in Anakin's case, is something he loses at the end of the PT: when he becomes Vader. So there's another contradiction, of sorts, in Kylo still having all of his, along with his soft, healthy skin, as the Vader-like, Vader-obsessed villain. One of the cooler moments of TFA, in my opinion, was seeing Kylo injured and all torn and mucked up at the end of his first duel (or second if we include the first "mind rape" encounter) with Rey. He starts to become the thing he idolizes.

TFA has some intriguing qualities, for sure. As I've said before and will say again: TFA is probably the most and the least interesting of all the Star Wars movies.

Right. There's also something of Shmi's death in the way Han clutches Kylo's face just as he begins to fall off the ledge. And, of course, his descent into a distant white light echoes the Emperor's death at Vader's hand. This link, as with the other fusing of ROTS and ROTJ, seems to be TFA acknowledging the added psychological force (pun intended) of those climactic installments. ROTS, in Lucas' words, is both darker and "more emotional" than the other episodes, while Richard Marquand made a similar claim for ROTJ's expanded pathos and humanity in a contemporaneous interview finally posted to the web in 2013.

Perhaps that is also part of GL's genius. In forging so many connections, Lucas has ensured that the PT is inevitably brought into the wider "Hero's Journey" of the OT and the ST; even if the quoting is subliminal or incidental. Threepio (the conscious "Public Relations" bot) being pulled along by Artoo (the sly, persistent force of the movies): "This is such a drag".

Sometimes, I guess I equate Lucas with Einstein. Einstein, like Lucas, was very much a maverick, and a bit of a pariah. These anti-authoritarian tendencies meant he always thought for himself and stubbornly went his own way: in his science, in his political views, and his personal life. And he spent the last thirty years working up to a greater intellectual achievement: attempting to bridge disparate paradigms and find a unified field theory; something that would resolve what he formulated (General Relativity) with what he accepted but disliked (Quantum Mechanics). Some have disparaged Einstein and said he was too rigid and wasted those remaining years on a fruitless intellectual quest. Yet people have been dining on those nuggets, and winning Nobel Prizes for it, ever since. And here we have people thinking the PT is a waste, and Disney even launching a PR campaign that deliberately distanced TFA from it, while everything about the PT dictates the course of TFA and the ST. Geniuses always get the last laugh.

Great stuff! And I know, right? "Air doesn't appear in this movie". O, RLY? It's the same when Kathleen Kennedy made a point of saying "Jar Jar doesn't appear in this movie". Only, hmm, there are subliminal allusions to Jar Jar, especially in the characters BB-8, Finn, and Snoke, and the orange-skinned helper Maz (her name is also an anagram of Zam).

I also agree with you on Rey. Kylo even discovers that she dreams of an island. And that island is obviously her destination at the end of the movie where Luke is. So she seemingly also had the ability to see into the future without training (or maybe some as a child), much like Anakin told Qui-Gon he dreamed of becoming a Jedi and freeing the slaves.

Tres cool. And also another ROTJ link (Endor). While the fact that TFA is the first of a trilogy, yet has all this warm, bucolic nature imagery in it, makes it more like TPM than ANH (which only has Tatooine). Plus the warm, inviting melody of Rey's Theme. Sounds like a blend of the themes for Anakin and Qui-Gon. Furthermore, TPM and ROTS are the other Star Wars movies in which a powerful character (Qui-Gon and the Emperor) makes a reference to the colour of another character's skin ("Blue friend", "Little green friend"), and here is Rey now commenting on the lushness of a planet (and, again, if TFA is watched after ROTS, it's the second "green" reference: innocent, young, female, benign, to the shrivelled-up old-man nastiness of the corpulent and mocking Emperor).

TFA has a lot going for it. I think the execution of it is much more basic than the execution of the former installments (especially in terms of its cinematography and editing: core aspects of the entire saga), and it is less whimsical and studied than the former films. At the same time, however, it manages to intriguingly evoke the former films and bring new things, albeit within a nostalgic framework. I have a sort of grudging respect for it. I even (sorta) like it. I just don't love it.

 

Absolute frigging highlight of this post

I'd make that my sig if the lack of context in foreign parts of the forum didn't possibly give a potentially offensive atmosphere to it

Digressing -

While I'll outright say I do love TFA (I'm.... uh.... openly gay and straight for it? How the hell does a bisexual person say it) I agree with most else of your post. And this whole "Disney wants you to forget the PT" thing going around. While I can see the logic around it, and the certain blanket of paranoia that's definitely there, which I'll admit to wrapping around me a couple years ago, does not really ring as true to me. Especially if I choose to take the "they care about profit" view. After all, if they're really so greedy (one of the main themes of the PT, TPM in particular!) then why would they take attention away from one third of the profits? And that's not even looking at the spinoffs or other EU, old and canon. Or whatever the hell they call it these days

 

I think of it as; the PT detractors that continually come here day after day are Leia, and the PT is Han.

Though they're still just in the ANH-first 2/3 of ESB era.

They happen to like nice movies.

 

I am fascinated by The Force Awakens because it is, to me, an intellectually meticulous interpretation/performance of practically every other Hollywood movie overlapping. It's hard to encapsulate my observations about this, but I'll try. The motif/mirror/echo thing that happens in Star Wars is a heightened version of what every movie does: imitate, emulate, and allude to other works. It's all a single, vast, well-oiled machine that sees no boundaries when it comes to what it copies and conceptually/visually/emotionally links to through similarity and synchronicity. When you imitate, you have three very vague, rough options. You can run parallel, perpendicular, or obliquely (sublimely) to the source material. It's like mirroring form, content, or an in-between, liminal zone of both at once. I want everyone reading this post to actually participate in this one as much as possible. It's a single example of what I'm trying to say. The Matrix Revolutions & The Force Awakens. TFA doesn't just copy TMR. It fulfills its prophecy. It takes the ideas present in the other and exemplifies them, expounds on them, and takes them to a logical conclusion. The echoes between these two movies are insane. It's uncanny. I'll give one example...

 

Brand image. If they believe the PT hurts the Star Wars brand image, and mainly went by nerd culture that disparages those films, then yes they would would want to bury those films to maintain brand image and profits. Brand image is a major component of any marketing plan and a bad or damaged image will reduce profits. I think Disney maybe is slowly realizing the PT isn't as widely hated as the internet and nerd circles claim they are, but their could be PT detractors in their ranks.

As for my thoughts on TFA, it wasn't as bad as I thought it was going to be but I still thought it was a poor film didn't like it.

 

Brand image. If they believe the PT hurts the Star Wars brand image, and mainly went by nerd culture that disparages those films, then yes they would would want to bury those films to maintain brand image and profits. Brand image is a major component of any marketing plan and a bad or damaged image will reduce profits. I think Disney maybe is slowly realizing the PT isn't as widely hated as the internet and nerd circles claim they are, but their could be PT detractors in their ranks.

As for my thoughts on TFA, it wasn't as bad as I thought it was going to be but I still thought it was a poor film didn't like it.

 

Okay, hold up...

For the longest time, my go-to metaphor was: The Prequels are like the new guy your mom is dating—probably an okay dude, but you hate him because he's not the dad you fondly remember growing up with.
Or the abridged version: The Prequels are like the new guy your mom is dating...




Except now I'm seriously considering a switch to the 'Closet Prequel Fan'.

 

I think it is a bit of both.

 

I'm just attempting to force myself to focus on the positive with the new rewatch, and tbh, it's working pretty well.

 

After not watching it for a couple years, the PT has held up pretty well imo.
Still have some issues with it but still pretty good.

 

Same.

Btw, Cryogenic updated my signature for you.

 

Pfff, closet

TEAR DOWN THE DOOOOOR

Those sound almost like song lyrics. For all I know, they are somewhere. I'll take singing lessons and make it so