ST Kylo Ren/Adam Driver Discussion Thread

I agree that Luke was an unreliable narrator.

However, Kylo admitted to destroying the temple, and prior canon materials flat-out stated he had killed the other students.

More importantly, perhaps, Kylo’s depiction was not consistent with the notion he was actually entirely innocent from the start. No dichotomy of characterization - the public face of cruel Kylo Ren vs flashes of the “real, kind, caring, regretful Ben Solo.”

I don’t say this as a fan who wanted Kylo to end up hardcore evil. I just thought they were going to reconcile his character with redemption in a way that felt more natural and preserved the complexity of his character.

As it turned out, RoS morally absolved Kylo while robbing him of the nuance that was a major appeal of his character.

I know there are a number of hardcore Kylo fans who wanted bendemption and share my unhappiness with how it was done.

 

Yeah, pretty much everything in that Tumblr post was based on a fanfic the person read, not the actual book which they clearly didn't. I mean, if anything Last Shot proves Ben Solo actually had very present, loving parents who were constantly there for him since that's shown constantly throughout the book (Ben is shown way more with either parent than ever is with droids). The book has Han thinking numerous times about how this is the first time he's been away from Ben since he was born (Ben is 2 in the book) and how hard it is to be away from Leia and Ben for even a few days. A droid babysitting Ben once doesn't mean he was "raised by droids" any more than my parents using a baby sitter once a month when they went out meant I was "raised by baby sitters". Likewise, Leia in PLOA even SPECIFICALLY thinks about how Bail and Breha were always there for her despite their busy schedules and never left her to be raised by droids, so it's funny that person got the exact opposite impression from PLOA (which they also obviously didn't read).

There's also zero evidence Leia neglected Ben to focus on her politcal career other than the sexist assumption "She had a career, so she MUST have neglected her child, because everyone knows women can't do both!"

I feel like I keep repeating myself here, but it's like every few weeks some complete misrepresentation of what happened in the books pops up by someone who clearly never read any of them....

 

If people raise $100,000 will Boyega write us some Reylo fan fiction?

 

For real though? The amount of these claims since TFA came out that are based on "Han and Leia are terrible parents cause he said so" and then accepting that as fact instead of ya know....questioning why a mass murderer would say that; has been insane. That and while I sympathize with people who get catharsis out of Kylo, we can do that without also validating toxicity, promoting gaslighting, making stories about how you should forgive the men who violate and abuse you, putting more emphasis on the abuser and coded white supremacist than his victims, etc.

Intersectionality and all. They could have committed and explored something, but it just feels all over the place. Wanna talk about neglect? Make that substantive then and actually talk about it! I loved Kylo in the past two films, cause I thought they actually had committed to something, what with the meta- Kylo is entitled toxic men who think they are owed their idealized version star wars they feel they have ownership of - idea. Or with him being an angry man child which was interestingly potentially scary as a concept. Or him as Vader but as emperor and just as whiny which honestly sounded really interesting. I want my, Kylo drives the FO into the ground through sheer inability to lead and angry outbursts.

 

I hear you. In my daily experience in healthcare however, I see many young and not so young adults who should know the difference between right and wrong, yet they don't. I suppose many cases can be drawn up as to the causes for their behaviour. I'm ok with the chilhdood trauma, external manipulation. What I see on the rise though on a daily basis is the results of lack of parenting. Either completely abandoning children to their own devices (either through wilful neglect - "Let him figure it out" or neglect due to circumstance) or mollycuddling them to an extent where the child never learns about actions/consequnces and develops no usable lifeskill. The latter one is especially scary to see in real life where people nearing 30 do not know how to wash up or, for example, being in a public space and treating it as private, expecting everyone else around them to abide by their rules.

So only based on the above, I would disagree with your statement that in a contemporary movie that is written to contemporary average youngsters, we should be using our elderly right/wrong filters. My observation about the definitions of right/wrong and common sense have been under review for a few years now. It is actually something I like about the movies: they aren't black and white (even though I would have perhaps found them more palatable that way).

Also, there is plenty of research nowadays out on conscious and subconscious influencing. Think of your google news suggestions or facebook feed generating content based on complex algorithms or snooping your data.

I don't see why it is a big stretch to take our reality and use that to judge the movie.

Why were people more OK with Vader being redeemed over three movies to the point of him having a whole trilogy dedicated to his fall, but not with his grandson.

 

I just still find it totally bizarre that of all the protaganists of the ST, Kylo is the one chosen as the poster child for being horribly neglected and having a traumatic childhood compared to Rey and Finn because his parents..worked? Compared to Rey being literally abandoned at left to fend for herself at the age of 5 or Finn being kidnapped from his family and raised by an evil dictatorship?

 

Look at it from a different angle: of all the above characters Ben is the only one that falls. Rey is tempted time and again but never ultimately gives in. I prefer looking at it from the perspective that She is just more badass and strong because of that and Ben/Kylo, the one with the big hopes attached to his existence, is essentially a failure. Same difference, but different filter.

 

I think there's a potentially interesting story behind his fall. I just don't think "Han and Leia had careers so he felt neglected so he turned to the Dark Side" like that Tumblr post theorizes is a good one.

 

Yes, exactly. Kylo Ren said he destroyed the temple. Adam Driver said Kylo Ren killed his "class", which points to the people behind the movies thinking he killed the students. It is what 99% of the audience will think. If a comic retcons that, it doesn't change what's in the movie.

To me this was LFL's entire point with Ben Solo. To point out that just because you have great parents and a good bloodline, it doesn't mean you are the hero of the saga. Is it good writing? Would it have been better had the hero of the story been a Skywalker blood heir? Many think so. But LFL went with the "blood" doesn't matter and Ben remained the fallen villain and Rey (with Palpatine blood) the last woman standing and heir to the Skywalker legacy.

 

So Anakin and Ben are not apart of the Skywalker Legacy? Both made sacrifices that allowed the Jedi to continue, instead of the last of it dying. What a garbage take, and quote.

 

Kylo acting like he was under an evil spell was some terrible writing and I can’t believe how many people are totally cool with the evil spell approach.

 

Indeed. It’s not enough that the ST ended up being so bad but all the behind the scenes stuff has left me with no interest in speculating about future films. Seems like they’re okay lying, misleading, and changing their minds even if it contradicts themselves.

 

Wow....just.….wow !!

Exactly what I've been saying for the last two years and now backed up by someone with professional credentials like that.

Its like I've just been reading what I've written for the last two years.

AND THAT IS WHY I SAY JJ PARTIALLY MARVELIZED BEN SOLO'S RETURN TO THE LIGHT !!!!!!!

Because there is no narrative depth to the scene in resolving what the real cause of Ben Solo's problems were !!!

There was all of the emotion, but no narrative depth. Its a Marvel-like turn in his character back to the light because JJ sat on the bloody fence in trying to please everyone and not resolve the actual emotional narrative that underpinned this trilogy.

Wow.... good one JJ !!

 

Kylo hears voices so naturally decides to blow up a planet or two.

 

This idea of the dark side being so powerful that it consumes a soul and changes the person fundamentally and that they change back after they defeat the dark side is how I have personally always interpreted Star Wars regardless of how anyone else did so I adore that others with the power to make these films saw it how I see it and made that more overt for me and future generations and hopefully more content moving forward.

@anakinfansince1983 this is his charity:
https://aitaf.org/about/

 

Yes he does. He even posted a video thanking everyone. He mentioned Ben Solo. It is for Arts in the Armed Forces Adam is the Founder of it.

 

In what part of the trilogy did Kylo Ren decide to blow up a planet himself?

In “The Force Awakens” General Hux orders the attack on Hosian Prime.
In “The Last Jedi” it is again General Hux who orders the attack on the escaping Resistance Pods.
In “The Rise of Skywalker” it is General Pryde after communicating with Emperor Palpatine himself who orders the destruction of Kijimi.

Is he by any means innocent not in the least but he is not the one who ordered the destruction of two planetary systems.

 

Getting no real explanation for Ben Solo’s fall is the ST in a nutshell. Why did blank happen in the ST? No good reason that’s why.

 

Exactly. Just Go with it. Don't overthink it. That's the ST way.