ST Kylo Ren/Adam Driver Discussion Thread

@K2771991 - it's like you think I should have to add "imo" to every single sentence, which is a ridiculous request. Yes I can demonstrate Rey's irrationality with respect to Kylo. You may of course disagree with my position, but I feel it is demonstrable that Rey is irrational in her judgments of Kylo by way of her choices and lack of logic with respect to those choices.

Kylo of course was insulted by his mask being insulted, hence he destroyed the mask. It's the same logic I use to say I don't think he was that broken up over Han. If he was, he might have held Han as he died, and he wouldnt have been able to casually handwave the murder like a total psycho when Rey asked him about it. Behavior demonstrates inner turmoil. Choices demonstrate inner turmoil. What showed on screen imo is Kylo was way more upset about being insulted by Snoke than he was gutting his father and dropping him off a bridge to die alone.

Even your definition of excuse fits Rey blaming Kylo on Luke as an excuse. That's the point of blaming somebody else. It relieves whoever is not being blamed of culpability.

 

JJ absolutely didn't think of an ensemble in TFA when he gave Rey all skills and left nothing for supposed members of her ensemble. As someone already commented, number and level of her skills left Finn without contributing. And in TROS, everything others could do she could do better (piloting, shooting, Force) plus stuff they couldn't do. JJ made characters tag along in her quest for truth about her family because that was his last chance to put them in the same scenes. and they all ended up just shouting or being in awe of Rey.

Point being, if one character is one-(wo)man army, they are not suitable for ensemble because they are not stronger thanks to people who have what they don't. One has it all. everyone else is obsolete.Harry needs Hermione to read the books. Rey read them herself. You see the difference.

As for Kylo, you have to decide whether Kylo was popular or wasn't because if he wasn't than LFL wouldn't make him the lead over "undeniable lead" Finn as you claim 24-7, and if he was than they made a right decision to make him the lead over less popular character.

 

To be fair, you were the one who started making comparison between characters. What I did was mention the bond between Harry and Voldemort as an example of how such magical bonds aren't always positive.

Wormtail doesn't work either; for one, he was motivated primarily by cowardice and his crimes wasn't on the same level as Kylo Ren's. Most of what Pettrigrew did, he did to save his own skin; Kylo Ren wasn't motivated by a fear for his own life. He was motivated, at least in part, by ambition: he actively aspired to be like Darth Vader.

 

'My son is alive'. Also, Kylo himself after being told about Han: 'I feel it again, the pull to the light. The supreme leader senses it'.

He does. In TLJ, we have the same 'too much Vader' idea from the opposite POV: 'too much of your father's heart in you, young Solo'. That's in the context of Snoke talking about the past ('when I found you').

'A new Vader'. That was his potential. But the 'mighty Kylo Ren' is not 'a new Vader' yet ('alas, you are no Vader') because of 'too much' Ben Solo in him.

Correct. Lucas combined Vader and Luke's father in TESB's 2nd draft (similarly, Leia was not Luke's sister until 1981)

 

KK and LFL referred to the ST as the Skywalker Saga, made Ben Solo the sole Skywalker of the new cast and you DIDN’T think he would be one of the main characters?

Is @godisawesome really making this argument?


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I think Kylo was the most popular because of his entrance scene which even I admit was a cool and badass power display with freezing the blaster bolt. He lost some street cred at the end when newbie Rey ultimately pawned him in a duel. But it was still salvageable. Outside of shippers the lip-wibble version of "poor pity me" and romance guy from TLJ didn`t seem as popular. So his role increased but not so much in the way that pleased all who he was popular with.

TROS was the trying-to-please-all mess that tried to combine everything. "See, he is a badass again - and the mask is back (though hardly on him)." "See, he is promising evil guy again." "But also still romance guy." "And redemption guy, just like Vader." "Oh, and we still kill him off, haha."

 

Of course. cause in GIA universe only Finn exists as the main lead. I sometimes wonder if GIA is Boyega. So much investment in one character and actor's status is very strange without any incentive (higher salary, etc).

 

Given that you bring up Finn a lot in non-constructive posts, I wouldn't be throwing stones. It's like you have a love-hate relationship with the character, you big old tsundere you.

 

Don't forget too that every shot of Kylo removing his mask cuts to him having already taken it off his head so as not to mess up his beautifully coiffured hair.

 

I think JJ always intended to redeem Kylo Ren, though I'm not sure beyond that. When I first saw TFA, I thought "yeah, no brainer, he'll be redeemed" but this was also when I thought the trilogy was planned, so....

The only one thing that seems to be consistent across all the various scripts is Kylo Ren dies in the end.

 

My posts are constructive which is far more than that nonconstructive character deserves. But since he's frequent circular topic around here (muh male lead, muh 2 billion, muh mancrush,etc) it would be rude to ignore it and, besides, it's fun.

 

One thing that seemed very prevalent in TROS was Rey suddenly "sensing" something every couple of minutes. The group are walking or running around and suddenly Rey "senses" something else and has to check it out. It was comical how often it seemed to happen.

 

I didn't even notice that consciously.

 

It was part of the “a feeling” theme with the force that also applied to Finn and Jannah.

I recall her doing it in the desert and on Kylo’s destroyer when she senses the dagger.


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Ha ha ,indeed. That's a sign of a bad script. We can't explain something so lets have a character sense it. That'll do. Then they up'd the number of characters who sense something. Like, cause Rey was with Palpy, they needed someone else to sense the inexplicable "SD at 2 o'clock from exactly the same SD #45678 is the right one to shoot" so they upgraded Finn into Senser Exposition. Why that SD out of 5 billion? Cause I feel it! Ah, OK. Foyah!

@godisawesome

Which explains all those comedy skits with the character ("I talk first" "Anything else" Storm troopers run from tantrum), as well as being dressed down for saying "the girl is all we need" and letting the droid with the map go, and already mentioned "looks like a sort of prince" unmasking. yeah, very menacing.

That was subverting Vader expectations right there. Now, if you still hoped (cause at that point it was only hope, and not a realistic expectation, that he would be just an ugly one-dimensional baddie going forward ) that's on you. But the movie showed there was much more to him and his relationship with Rey and many fans picked up on that and were right. Nothing wrong with reading the movie incorrectly but it's been 5 years now and you are still holding onto that your interpretation was right but Rian ruined everything and then poor JJ couldn't go back even though he had no problem with retconning Rian's parentage reveal and bringing in Palaptine and sassing saber toss and Holdo maneuver and what not so if he wanted to go back to what you insist was his intention, he could but he didn't. becasue that was never his intention. all his intentions from TFA days are in TROS. There.

 

Ugly as in disfigured, forced to wear mask all the time, etc as opposed to Byronic Prince that we got in all 3.

 

I think so. "Byronic prince" is often someone that either is totally appealing or totally off-putting. Depending on how they are depicted in their respective stories.

For example I find Heathcliff to be a charismatic character but he is certainly awful to the ninth degree later in the story. His charisna just pulls him through.

The depiction of Kylo in TFA just isn't a well-done version of a byronic hero because JJ wanted to re-do his favourite SW movie and most of the characterd were shorthand copies, with Kylo copying Vader. Who wasn't anything approaching Byronic or heroic in ANH. Just one or two whiny lip-wipple scenes for Kylo didn't make a Heathcliff. Who started out IN the sympathetic backstory phase, not as the guy who beat and blackmailed his young wife. First impression and all.

 

he had a lot going on:

Dark humor



His "oh shoot" face



he's conflicted



He's badass



He's smitten



he's empathic



He shows a glimpse of the other guy (Solo smirk)