ST Kylo Ren/Adam Driver Discussion Thread

Also because Kylo isn't a teenager ...and not one of Johnson's anti heroes. But KK loved Driver - somewhere along the line, they decided Kylo was Loki/Snape, without realizing that the dynamics are completely different. It looks like Johnson ran with that. To be fair, Loki gets away with a lot, but the difference is, he has Thor to balance him out, that's his purpose as Loki, and he has a backstory. Kylo has none of that. Also, Loki is charming and funny. Kylo? Not so much. You can get away with a lot if you're charming and funny. If Kylo had been "Ben Solo" as a fascist, I wonder how that would have played...

 

I never got the sense in any of the movies that Kylo was intended to be anything more than essentially a coward hiding behind a monster persona and I felt that all of TLJ’s suggestions otherwise were shown—-within the movie itself—- as basically manipulations of Snokatine and Kylo’s (whether Kylo was conscious of it or not). The only thing that got him to stop monstering was the experience of sensing his mother’s death. With Leia gone, there was no more drive to rebel, nothing left to claim a stake on, no one left to prove anything to. Like an emperor gone mad, all that was left was the pain he caused in the attempt. His memory of Han dying for him is what saved him from insanity, because it suggested his life wasn’t entirely a liability —- there was still the fruit of his mother’s efforts. Leia disabled his destructive drive, Rey prolonged his life, and Han gave him a sliver of hope to set him on a new course. Not to be a hero, but simply to follow his conscience in service of his mother’s efforts.

 

I'm sorry - WHAT? Han "dying for him" - uh, no, Kylo MURDERING him. Leia was murdered by the plot because apparently all the OT 3 had to die for their "sins" in not catering to Kylo's every whim.

 

"The Empire, your parents, the Resistance, the Sith, the Jedi... let the past die. Kill it, if you have to."

Yeah, he never actually says the word "destroy" but you'd have to perform mental gymnastics to tell me that's not what the above quote is getting at. And once you add in the fact that he clearly has no intention of letting the First Order go the way of the dodo, it's pretty clear that Kylo wants to "kill" everyone except his own loyal regime.

That is a far cry from "We can end this destructive conflict and bring order to the galaxy." Vader had finesse, Kylo does not.

 

This is not the face of a man who was expecting to get stabbed.

Joking aside, there's nothing in the script that indicates that Han thought he was going to get stabbed. Instead, it implies that he thought he was reaching his son.

Spoiler: TFA Script

KYLO REN: I know what I have to do, but I don't know if I have the strength to do it. Will you help me?
Han hears his son's voice again, pained and vulnerable.

HAN: Yes. Anything.
Kylo Ren unholsters his lightsaber and SLOWLY EXTENDS IT to Han, within a foot of Han's chest. Han almost can't believe it. The moment seems to last forever. And just then, the LAST BEAM OF SUNLIGHT streaming through the open hatch VANISHES.
Han actually smiles -- and reaches out for the dark weapon -- but with the light now gone, KYLO REN'S EYES FILL WITH
DARKNESS, HE IGNITES THE LIGHTSABER -- THE FIERY BLADE SHOOTS OUT, RIGHT THROUGH HAN'S CHEST AND BACK!

When Kylo Ren said it's time to let the old things die, the context made it clear that he meant destroy.

Rey: "Ben! The fleet. Order them to stop firing. There's still time to save the fleet. Ben?"
Kylo Ren: "It's time to let old things die. Snoke, Skywalker. The Sith, the Jedi, the Rebels.... let it all die"

Note also that when he is listing the old things that need to die, he doesn't make any mention of the Empire or the First Order even though the latter is a faction that was literally formed by the remnants of the old Empire and was outright intended to be its continuation. This is even visually apparent by the way that The First Order has copied the Empire down to the uniforms and vehicles which are just slightly altered variants of the same design.

I'm sure him leaving them out of his list has nothing to do with the fact that he has just become the supreme leader of the First Order.

(He also doesn't seem to be in a hurry to cast aside his lightsaber which is a Jedi/Sith weapon. He brings it with him after the events aboard the Supremacy, wields it and everything)

 

I think it was fairly clear that Han knew he was risking his life to reach Ben. He wasn’t a naive character. Of course he was surprised in that moment because Ben seemed like he was about to return (and probably almost did) which was also a surprise. But you didn’t mention the moment right after that when Han put his hand of Kylo’s face in a gesture of love. It’s hard for me not to imagine that moment didn’t stick with and torture Ben for the rest of his time in the Kylo persona, particularly since Rey references it to him in TROS. But even if she didn’t, I don’t see how that moment wouldn’t have stayed with him.

So yeah. Maybe “risking a likely death for him” is a better term than “dying for him” if you want to really dissect the language. I find the difference negligible, especially in the context it was used.

 

I like Han stroking his son's cheek. It is a sign of strength, not a sign of weakness, and probably started Kylo back to the right path, or at least thinking about it. I hated that Han died, but I did think that scene was well done.

 

I didn't mention it, because I detest it. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Or, to be more accurate, I hate the interpretation that Han forgave Kylo for MURDERING HIM.

Also, this:



I like my interpretation better

I'll sit here and argue until the heat death of the universe that Han wasn't expecting his son to murder him. Then again, maybe he should have considering Leia sent him and didn't go herself...ahem

Again, I will ask why all three of them had to die before Kylo decided "oh, y'know, maybe being Supreme Leader isn't all it's cracked up to be, I'll go save this girl I've 'known' for two days."

 

May I ask what you think Han was expecting by revealing his presence to the second in command of the First Order in front of a bunch of stormtrooper witnesses? Do you really think, when he saw Kylo in the same room, he was thinking “oh good. I’ll chat with him, he’ll see the error of his ways, and come home. Problem solved.”?

As for Rey, reviving her was penance. It has nothing to do with how long he’s known her. She’s the last hope of his mother’s efforts and dream, who healed him in honor of his mother.


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I don't think Han expected to be killed. i think he actually felt he could talk his son down. his first instinct wouldn't be to expect that.

 

Parents=mother. This frames Rey's 'he killed my mother...and my father' in a peculiar way. It's the father that's killed first and we don't even see Jodie Comer being killed.

Dark Rey talks like Leia ('never be afraid of who you are') Like 'mother'.
In TESB, Luke was father (Dagobah cave), and at the same time Dark Luke in a way.

 

I think his hope was to talk Kylo down. That’s why he did it. But I don’t see how he could expect that it had a great chance of working, particularly since he was trying to talk his way out of it to Leia. If anything, he was going for broke against the odds. Like Han Solo always does

 

Yes, I'm sure he was expecting to be suckered in and run through with a lightsaber by his own child. Considering it was Kylo, he should have. He also should have shot first. Or not called at all and let him die in Starkiller. That would have been my preference, frankly.

And for Leia to give a damn about Kylo, in TROS, after all he did, to the point of dying for him, only made it worse. That all three of those heroes died for that waste of skin is the original sin of the ST.

Ah, Kylo fans. You always always find ways for it to be everyone's fault but Kylo.

 

knew it was risky tho.. just like Luke did trying to turn his father .. different outcome sadly, both very dramatic, love both scenes

 

The difference is not negligible. Saying that Han died for Kylo Ren in the sense that Han Solo willingly let Kylo Ren kill him is not accurate to what actually went down.

Han Solo did not die for Ben: that was never his intent. Him being willing to risk a likely death to try to turn his son, even being willing to risk his son killing him for the sake of getting the chance to try to turn Ben, is not the same as him being willing to let his son kill him like a volunteer sacrifice. Han Solo didn't want his son to kill him.

Han touching his son's face afterwards is not meant to convey that he was okay with Ben killing him: it was meant to convey to his son that he still loved him in spite of the fact that Ben had just killed him.

 

I asked what you thought he was expecting in the movie, in that scene. Not what you think he should have done.

The difference is indeed not negligible in some contexts, but it is negligible in the context I was using it, which was to highlight Ben Solo’s heel face turn motives in TROS. Everything you just wrote that I put in bold is exactly what I’m talking about. It stayed with him.

 

He was not expecting his son to kill him. He should have, but he wasn't. Which is why I also say that's not Real Han Solo but, as always, that's just me. I don't think any of them are in character in the ST, except for that one moment when Luke is happy to see Artoo. That's 30 seconds of them being the real thing.

 

The real Han Solo would expect it? I don't think so. presumbaly Han has no reason to think his son would do that.

The real Han would need to be someone who has no emotional investment towards his son to be cautious like that. perhaps he was abit overconfident to walk on the non-railing bridge though.

 

But every reason to think that the revealing of his presence to the FO probably wouldn’t end with a hug.

 

No reason except his son was like the second most horrible person in the galaxy.

 

I found everything that led to Han stepping onto the catwalk and calling out to Ben to be horribly contrived. The scene itself is great, but you can tell JJ and Kasdan just worked backwards from what they wanted and never had time (or just couldn't be bothered) to make all the set up feel organic.

 

After TFA, everyone needed to sit down and decide whether they wanted Kylo to get worse and be killed off as the main bad guy or realize he had made a grave mistake and try to fix all that he had done wrong up to this point so that he could be redeemed. For some reason, LFL thought they could have Kylo be the main bad guy AND get redeemed.

 

RJ was writing TLJ as JJ was making TFA. TFA was changed to accommodate RJ’s story.