ST Kylo Ren/Adam Driver Discussion Thread

In personality, Ben was like Han. Kylo himself says that. Han's son was 'weak and foolish, like his father'. Of course, 'weak and foolish' are good qualities for us, since Kylo is a villain.
They would be something like 'brave' and 'never tell me the odds'.

Probably, Ben (not Kylo) was vulnerable and capable of vulnerability-related anger, just like OT Han. For example, Han getting angry at Leia in TESB (when he asks her to express her true feelings but she doesn't); or Han in ROTJ ('What, could you tell Luke? Is that who you could tell?')

Both in TESB ('good as gone') and ROTJ ('I won't get in the way'), although for different reasons, Han leaving the saga behind is presented as a real possibility. The benign version of 'let the past die'. (In TFA Han says Leia 'doesn't want to see me')

Also, Han the 'cold-blooded killer' as Lucas called him, The Han Solo That Shot First, seems to be a part of Kylo in TLJ. Snoke was killed through cunning, like Greedo, and in cold blood (even their deaths are similar, with both Han -'I don't have it with me, tell Jabba...'- and Kylo making a distraction with their empty hand)

That was probably the reason why 'Han was Han about it' as Luke says. Han didn't know about Snoke, but he knew how his son would react. 'Your parents threw you away like garbage' sounds like projection, and perhaps what he felt at the time at some repressed level.

If 'looking for your parents everywhere. In Han Solo...now in Skywalker' is also projection, ir would mean that Ben looked for 'parents' in Luke, before landing in grandfather and general villany after the attempted 'filicide' -from his POV, in any case- inside that hut.

 

I remember the folk who claimed that Rey didn’t have to be a Skywalker to be the protagonist and central character.

Same folk who, after TLJ, turned around and claimed Kylo, not Rey, was the protagonist and central character because he, not she, was a Skywalker.

It was that incredibly bad-faith arguing that I most hated encountering back then. I’ve since heard such misogyny is common in shipping fandoms but it’s pretty shocking one first hears other women engaging in that sith.

 

I would have been perfectly fine with Rey Random, not being related to any previous character, in fact I would have much preferred that to Rey Palpatine

I certainly never saw Kylo as a protagonist, I’ve never understood that perspective

 

IMO the protagonist shouldn't have been random for this trilogy.

 

I think this Twitter thread is a prime example of how poorly thought out the sequels were and how badly TLJ divided the audience.



Half seem to love the idea of pure evil Kylo, half seem to have wanted redemption. Some say his arc was the only good thing about the ST and that Trevorrow misunderstood SW, while others think the lack of a full redemption arc is a fresh idea and feel TROS went against TLJ's vision by redeeming him.

By far some of the funniest and most interesting arguments I've seen are in that thread.

It bothers me how no one ever addresses that hypocrisy. A huge number of the same people crying about Luke existing outside of TLJ and the idea of Rey being a Skywalker are the same people that consistently elevate Kylo's role in the trilogy because he's a Skywalker. Yet they don't ever seem to be able to put two and two together on why that could potentially be detrimental to the random, unrelated female protagonist.

 

Overall title of the entire nine film franchise....The Skywalker Saga.

 

Villains can fit much greater roles than supporting roles. infact thats kinda the thing about having too many good guy characters. in the long run you can't carry a story of just good guys with no villain importance. there is only so much good guys can do on their own fighting off wave after wave of expendables woo'ing and running.

And saying he has the worst traits of his family is like saying when anakin turned to the darkside he had the worst traits of himself. which is kinda the point.

 

Yeah. Besides, it's a SW thing since 1980 at least. When Vader talks about 'destructive conflict' he's talking about the war and about himself. Vader looks like the war itself in ways Luke doesn't.
Those were the 'dark times', but also the times of the rebellion, of light not being gone. Vader had both things inside himself.

He chose the light at the end, and the film ended shortly after. That was no coincidence.

It's the same with Kylo. This time, the idea is there since the 1st film.

Kylo in TLJ is 100% a villain. But as a villain he's more like Vader, and less like Palpatine or Snoke. And, as Lucas said once about Vader, and not about Palpatine, 'the person you thought was the villain is actually a victim'. But the victim was not in ROTJ; the audience had only hints in that direction.

We certainly have those kinds of hints and orientation with Kylo Ren. He was Ben once; he was 'seduced', etc.

Vader's backstory was 'unlocked' by his choice in the 3rd episode. The same with Kylo. No TROS Ben, no death, no 'victim' backstory.

So, we'll see. Exegol Ben doesn't look like Kef Bir Ben (his exchange with Han); he's speechless and runs after Rey much like Finn. Something happened off screen I guess, and he was told or shown about Rey and himself. (Vader knew about Luke Skywalker off screen)

 

He was basically episode 3 anakin on mustafar. which says alot about who anakin would have been if he hadn't been turned into Frankenstein's Monster. he would have been exactly the same as Kylo

 

Anakin only questioned himself before going full darkside. He didn't constantly do bad things and say "why am I doing this?" Audience shouts back "then don't do it dummy!"

 

Because it broke him. turned him into a faceless horror villain.

Kylo never questioned why he did stuff either.

 

That's just unbearable.

 

Let's paws the bear puns.

 

Boo Hoo anakin. if you had not killed them maybe they wouldn't have turned against you.


Seems reasonable.


Well what did you expect Mr Dark Side?


Ok Jeez.

 

Yeah nobody wants Anakin and Padme to hook up after he chokes her or the temple massacre. At least I hope not.

 

We are meant to look at Anakin as a tragic figure. even after everything he has done though. the music, the direction. we are meant to see Anakin as tragic. so yeah we are meant to feel bad for him to a certain degree. and given the amount of tears i seen people have while watching Episode 3... id say many did.

Now obviously alot of OT fans probably didn't shed a tear. its mostly seen as Pftt Vader isn't meant to be tragic, he is meant to be a badass villain! this sucks! but the intention was for Anakins downfall to not be a sudden shift of hate, but a shift in disappointment.

 

Wow there's some sweeping OT fan generalization.