ST Kylo Ren/Adam Driver Discussion Thread

Anakin Skywalker is tragic because we see him from an innocent boy to a troubled Jedi and then his fall from grace and we see how he was tricked. And knowing he is willing to do evil acts to achieve his ambition to stop death because of his trauma is more sympathetic then Kylo, who is already evil (with no motivation other than wanting to be strong or “too much Vader in him???)) at his introduction and feels bad that he has a conscience. And in TLJ we learn he killed the Jedi because he was already evil and Luke tried to kill him. His tragic backstory that fans thought about more than the writers where he was contacted by Snoke from a young age is barely apparent in the movies and while I understand feeling bad for him it’s poorly executed compared to Anakin

and if we look at the intention, George Lucas wants the viewer to forgive the sinner, but he still gets his legs chopped off and by the end he is metaphorically in hell.

The sequel trilogy team wanted a tragic hero because it’s part of the formula, but Kylo is not developed as a tragic hero, he’s already Snoke’s henchman and is used for lightsaber duels, walking around hallways, and interrogations like Darth Vader. A big part of The prequels is seeing Anakin in more everyday settings where we can see him as a relatable person

 

I read the DOTF synopsis in the lead up to TROS but being reminded with that summary, it is kind of mind blowing. I loved the redemption angle but that particular villain arc seems much more fleshed out than what we got for his redemption.
Like you said it shows how little TLJ actually led to anything substantial, it would have still made as much sense to have him all out evil and it is a little disappointing we didn’t get some of the discarded elements , heading in either direction.
The production of the ST particularly TLJ was so short sighted, such wasted potential. I’m not just complaining to complain… there was something much deeper potentially and stuff like this is a reminder of how much less depth they ultimately went for.

 

Well what george wanted was far more complicated.

Anakin the space jesus of the galaxy, possible chosen one. he was a good person with abit of a short fuse. he had the jedi who some feel were unfair towards him. and others WHO feel anakin was overreacting. well he is convinced to kill them all to save the attachment the jedi wouldn't allow him to have. he turns to the dark side and we watch his fall into corruption, he then is burnt alive, but revived and creates mayhem for 20 years. he then sacrifices himself for his son and goes to jedi heaven.

I don't think Lucas see the dark side as a reward, but as constant misery. he has said dark siders are not happy people because they constantly crave more power. power they will never get enough of and it will never stop. and thats pretty much the rut they are trapped in. so in a way, it is hell.

See i don't think Rian and JJ wanted Kylo to be a tragic hero. i don't think neither of them did. i think both thought they were very clever in defying audience expectations. because audiences really were confident he would be redeemed, and i think they really wanted to stir that expectation up. and i think any elements of tragedy were there to mirror Vader as part of the defying.

IMO though it makes most sense that Ben Solo is infact a tragic figure. the only son of Han and Leia, the seed of their love, at a young age he was prayed upon by a dark sith due to his innocence and heritage to Anakin/Vader. to what degree that is, hasn't been explained, but its likely Snoke didn't enter the picture and was suddenly like wow i didn't have to do anything as this kid is already messed up! . no its likely Snoke had a really big part of what happened to Ben Solo. and Like anakin, if you tip someone towards the right place, then they are gonna fall. and to say well someone is stupid for trusting someone they thought they could trust or made a mistake that led down a bad path. well ain't we all stupid then.

Us watching Star Wars and saying well i pick this side because i know them and don't know you.

 

Thats like saying to someone with a drug addiction, who alot of them ain't particulaly happy people, but its like saying to them well you get no sympathy from me because if you are unhappy just stop taking them, see easy, bye!

Its constant misery, because they hunger power. but why do they hunger power? probably because they like the feeling of it. at its peak this is what happened to anakin. the yellow eyes only happens are meant to show alot of power is infused in him right? presumbaly its a very addictive feeling.



And again, when it really comes down to it, like in the real world. rules are set up to protect people, the jedi set up rules to protect jedi from falling to the dark side. its not just a case of trusting people to say no, because most of those same people fear falling to the dark side also. and thats probably not because its as easy to avoid when you are tapped into a mystical force that could go either way. its a case of once you start down that path you stand a good chance of being screwed and not even realizing or maybe even caring.

And we all trust people we shouldn't and we all make mistakes. infact i believe someone was on a Star Wars podcast talked about their own experience where they said that very thing, they said they got convinced by people who they thought were friends to go to certain events or parties, which just led to drugs, then addiction, then that addiction tore their relationship with their family apart. led to doing stupid things to get money to get more drugs, and only after a few years and rehab had they sorted their life out and mended things with his family to the best they could. its just reality. unless you are a saint, everyone has made mistakes.

 

I agree, however

We know using the Force with aggression and anger causes you to fall to the dark side. We see the choices and acts that lead Anakin to become infused with it. We don’t get that with Kylo Ren. So all the audience knows is Kylo used the Force aggressively and fell to the dark side, which doesn’t necessarily evoke sympathy without context.

 

The key word here is seduction, not addiction. It's in the films.

Seduction means, etymologically, 'to lead astray'.

In that sense, it's clearly manipulative. That was Snoke/Palpatine and 9-10 year old Ben let's say.

But, of course, it was about hijacking the victim's agency, and from a certain point on, Ben was also the one choosing to lead himself astray. That's what others wanted him to do.

Then, after the hut, that agency took over. But not before, and apparently Ben was also, by choice, fighting those impulses - and failing towards the end, since Luke noticed them during Ben's training. ('His' training would imply, perhaps, the idea of Luke training Ben separately)

 

Agreed. Ben always needed something that would give him good reasons to shake his trust in the authority figures he had growing up. Maybe something like, say, the revelation that his uncle, the paragon of the New Jedi Order, and his mother, a leading Senator in the restored Republic, were having an illicit incestuous affair (maybe even resulting in a love child that they abandoned on a desert planet?).

Oh, sorry, I had a Game of Thrones flashback there. Wrong one-handed blond knight who kisses his sister a little too deeply, I guess.

 

I knew we'd never get a satisfying answer to Kylo's fall because in a post-TFA interview JJ was asked a few questions, reason for Kylo being evil was one of them, and his response was "I decided to leave that to a future writer." I guess it's too much to ask that a writer come up with motivation for the son of the old heroes to be evil.

 

JJ's answer was a fancy shmancy way of saying "I have no ****ing idea, I'm making it up as I go along and don't want to follow through".

 

That summarizes the ST in a nut shell.

 

Maker forbid JJ ever answer a question. He makes the pilot and moves on. His motivation is "they did it that way before...." His (and his buddies) take on Star Trek was just as ruinous. His best thing is casting - he gets great people but then strands them in terrible plots with no motivation outside of "well, this has to happen so that the story moves forward."

 

Bu-bu-but it's explained in these here comics! Obviously you have to read them, duh!

 

It is astounding that after TFA so much was still unknown by the creators. Two completely different visions by 2 different directors. And they wonder why the ST is divisive. Thank goodness we have the Mandalorian.

 

What he was doing was what he did with Star Trek - erasing everyone and replacing them with his own versions/new characters.

 

And it was done by design too. SMDH

 

The Honest Pitch Meeting for TFA is hilarious. I never realized how much it copies ANH
"That's really good they are going to humanize stormtroopers. it really makes you see stormtroopers in a new light."
"How do they get away?"
"They kill a bunch of stormtroopers. They have a little stormtrooper murder rampage."

 

Did you ever see the movie? /s/