ST Kylo Ren/Adam Driver Discussion Thread

Incest has never stopped Star Wars before

 

Does the amount of time someone did evil amount to them being more evil? Or is it just all evil and trying to pull a measuring contest isn't useful to categorizing who is and isn't more evil?

What does math have to do with it?

 

Not so much the same. Morally, it's not necessarily a sin with a cousin as far as I understand it. While brother and sister, yeah it's wrong. I think the cousin thing might be more of a normal human social thing, than a moral issue.

 

Well technically Vader did more evil. Its just 20 years is alot of time not to show, so you assume he was just chilling at his castle. And when you do see it you see Vader walking down past some innocence homes dragging out fathers and kids with the force and snapping their necks just to get Obi Wan to come out of hiding. Thats what happens when you actually see an example of Vader and the perception of Vader.

 

I get that, I'm talking about what happened after the split, like was there ever an endgame for Finn once this version of him was made and how often it changed between directors. Was he meant to be a Jedi? Resistance general? Romance with Rey? With Rose?

I'd love to know what JJ had in mind for Finn's overall role when he was made back in 2014.

 

Why would it have been stated that it was a rushed production officially? Do you know a lot of companies that would expose their product like this? George Lucas started planning the Prequel Trilogy in 1994, which is five years before the first movie was released. JJ Abrams was hired to do the last movie in September 2017, which was a mere two years before TROS was released in the theaters. If you think that starting a movie like this from scratch (because essentially this is what happened, we all know how DOTF would have turned out, and JJ Abrams pretty much started all over new again) , which has to go through stages of pre-production, writing, shooting, editing, post-production and promotion in a little over 2 years is not rushed, I don't know what to tell you. TROS was easily the most rushed Star Wars movie ever, and one of the most rushed blockbusters of such a huge franchise in history.

That's your subjective opinion. To me, Palpatine's return (which was shoehorned sometime in mid 2018 - Ian McDiarmid got the call then) ruins the legacy of the classic 6 movie saga even more than the various missed opportunities and character assassinations do.

Who is more evil? A thief who steals bread and food because he's poor for 20 years, or a murdered who kills a family member in one instance? If you answer the latter, are you bad at math? Or should we perhaps compare with more factors other than "length of evilness" before we come to a conclusion? Or even better..... maybe we shouldn't compare at all? Because Vader's redemption has an entirely different function than the one that Kylo Ren's has?

 

Personally I’m convinced Finn was meant to take poe’s place in the resistance because Poe was meant to die. And Finn was gonna take Poe’s jacket in perhaps a way that was symbolic to taking his place. My belief is that losing Poe was gonna be a loss to the resistance and Finn was gonna have to fill that role even though he was the former storm trooper and had to prove himself. But Poe did not die, infact Poe was very much alive and still had the same role.

People like to think Finn was gonna be a Jedi because the marketing misdirected the audience into not knowing Rey was the Jedi. But when you actually get into it… there is little to nothing in TFA to say Finn was force sensitive unless you really want to stretch and say Finn looked at the sky and was using the force. Which would be called either subtle or non-existent.

Finn and Kyle fit different roles. But Finn and Kylo were likely never meant to be arch enemies. That was likely always to be Kylo and Rey. So in many ways, you can not compare the 2 characters.

 

Not officially but sometimes in interviews things are mentioned that may give off the idea that time restraints were an issue. But given what we know, and the amount they did, they had plenty of times, they just wanted to do too much is all.

For example, Alot of TROS feels like its taking from the successfull Avengers: End Game. If thats the case, they did not need ALOT of time to come to that conclusion. So any issues you have are nothing to do with time.
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Wait so you are saying he had 2 years to work on it?

No you are just looking for an excuse is all.

Well no it only ruins 1 aspect and that depends on how you feel about Vaders redemption. In some way Vaders redemption still works without Palpatine officially dying. But in another you may be tied emotionally to his death being needed.

 

Trust me, I have a lot of issues with that movie that don't have to do with planning and time constraints, but I am also sure that a lot of issues the movie had were exactly because of time constraints. It looks and feels like all the sequels, half-assed. Let's write a script, throw in some pretty things together, and make a quick buck.

No, I said exactly what I said, and not what you wrote here above. That he had a few months, maybe a year, to actually work on it, before the movie needed to be finished, revised, have CGI added, edited, and then marketed and promoted. And yes, two years for a movie like this is not enough time.

Well, no to what you said, and yes to what I said.

Palpatine's return ruins the point of the classic George Lucas 6 movie epic.
It literally negates the ending of the last movie. This is not up to debate.

 

That sounds fairly average tbh. Alot of films would be lucky to have a year to work on it.

 

Yes, because Star Wars is only an average film series, not like its a huge franchise or anything like that.

Just to add for the general record (this won't matter to sequel fans' standards), Daisy Ridley has said that even while filming Abrams was still going back and forth on whether Rey was Palpatine's granddaughter. Considering what a big plot point that is, yikes. Though you can see some of that in the final film too since it doesn't really matter in the end since Palpatine just recharges off their dyad energy and then they copy the "I am Iron Man" scene.

And then there's how they went crazy with copy-paste for the final battle. And I don't blame the special effects department for that, because they were under tight deadline and trying to do what they could with a silly story (thousands of Star Destroyers!).

Its not simply a matter of quantity (such as Vader being evil for more years than Kylo or how many they've killed), but also down to their choices. Driver himself said the initial idea was that Kylo's arc would be the reverse of Vader's. TFA dug a pretty big hole for Kylo when he killed Han, then TLJ dug even deeper (the last half hour of TLJ is basically Kylo trying to kill the rest of his family). Kylo spends half of TRoS trying to break Rey mentally and physically, then they just flip a switch through Leia's death and he's good. Its really abrupt but as Driver said redemption wasn't on the table until TRoS.

Vader started out just evil, then we see him wavering in ESB and RotJ and then he turned himself around. Its an actual character arc with progression, which it why it lands better with audiences.

Ideally Ben Solo could have been a great figure to carry on the legacy of his parents and the Jedi (as OT Luke was Obi-wan, Yoda and Anakin's legacy), instead Kylo's just a dead end for the OT cast. Both parents dead, and Luke doesn't even have any living students by the end of it all (and he wastes his last few days alive arguing with Rey). Not even a New Republic left that Leia could have been proud of before her death. Some of it is probably due to personal stakes (seeing OT characters end up like that) but not like the sequel era has been a springboard for great ideas. I don't even mean post-TRoS, but anything within even five years of the movies. When was the last sequel era comic published? Rise of Kylo Ren in 2020? Meanwhile the OT and prequel eras are still going strong with novels and comics. Just what a waste of an era and the OT.

 

Was obvious as soon as TLJ released that the ST was broken and RJ wasn't following the plan (as bad as it was to move away from GL).

Now all are admitting it.

 

Still feels incredible that the sequel trilogy, one of the most hyped/anticipated franchise productions ever made, was basically improvised on the fly.

 

There was no plan, so how could RJ “not follow it”?

 

It pretty much is now yes. If you haven't noticed by the amount of Star Wars we have gotten in the last few years.

But even then, a year is still Disney starting early.

TBOB is a production i believe was rushed. TROS is a production that wasn't rushed, its issues stem from their lack of confidence. Which is why they took from Endgame. Because Endgame went down well in terms of the climax to the series of films. Which lets be honest, by the time we got to TROS is stopped trying to be a safe remake of the OT and became more a safe legacy sequel.

Infact while they went into Solo barely keeping an eye on what was going on till it was too late. they probably put too much extremely overcareful thought into TROS.

 

True. TLJ still sucks though.

 

I don’t see the fruits of any extremely careful thought in TROS. It’s the most messy and least immersive movie they’ve ever made. you can practically see the seams breaking. I see how the the actual plot synopsis is a result of too many cooks, but you’d think if they weren’t rushing it and had very specific instructions they would warrant some basic competency and continuity

 

From whom exactly do you think this priority and expectation arises if redemption was never on the cards during this characters genesis and development by all of the authors they hired?

 

Its the film that involves the most PT throwbacks for one. Id argue thats thought put in. Palpatine i don't think was a throw away idea, i think they had a very good reason for including Palpatine even if some fans won't agree. The direction with Ben Solo i think actually had some decent thought put in. And i also think there is potential behind Rey being a Palpatine

And even making Rey a skywalker at the end... is it stupid? yes, But there is a reason they did that and that shows they did put in thought into it. even if it was done from anxiety-induced concern.

So i think there is a difference between rushed and making a customizable jigsaw with interchangeable ideas to be safe.

Which is why i called it safe and EXTREMELY careful thought. Being safe and EXTREMELY careful doesn't mean you will get a perfect story. it just means they spent too much time trying to cover everything, please everyone and create a tight story with the rest of the 8 movies.

In my opinion episode 9 could have been this HUGE risk taker. It could have had Rey being a no one and being the doesn't have to be related hero . It could had the last skywalker kid being bad till the end and going out a villain and you would have had MANY fans cheering it on for being different. And it would last for a few weeks or months before people started to say AAAACTUALLY its not a great end to the saga. its just scratched an itch for people who cried they wanted to see something different for a little while before they change their mind.

 

I didn't say there was no plan. I said the ST was broken and RJ wasn't following the plan (from JJ in this case).

The plan to move away from GL's work is where they first failed. Everything after that made it worse until they had to go back to him in his padawan.

I was willing to give the ST a chance, even it not being GL's work after TFA, even with my issues with the film. But when TLJ dropped, centered on Kylo Ren, it was clear that this wasn't what the previous movie set up and it broke what Star Wars was about for artistic reasons.

Those consequences led to where SW is now. Even JJ's popcorn/Star Trek-style SW would have been a salvageable product, unlike what SW fans got.

 

There was no plan. Simple as that. Even JJ himself did not have any long term foresight as TROS had ideas he wanted to do in TFA like the Deathstar wreckage in the water. That doesn't exactly say JJ had ALOT of ideas when you are just going back to the left overs.

But then this is normal to Star Wars. Even Lucas himself had ideas and changed them after. this is not some kind of blasphemy. its just how it works.

I mean who wants to bet that Darth Vader wasn't meant to be Lukes father in the first star wars movie? Who wants to bet Lucas did not have other ideas at that time?

Well no they have not gone back to Lucas and his padawan.

 

Kennedy's rep was being a production producer but wow LFL seems to just lurch around like Frankenstein's monster reborn as Dug from Up, with a squirrel wandering by every 10 minutes. My favorite story is Abrams and Kasdan wandering around all these capitals, allegedly plotting and writing TFA when, I mean, c'mon, they got a hotel room, ordered room service and put ANH and TPM on and copied like crazy. To quote Han, why don't they just admit it?

Solo is even more hilarious. Really, it took you the whole shoot, 3 weeks left to go, before you figured out that the movie wasn't working. So, no one watched any dailies? Read the script? Watched The LEGO Movie?

TROS is at least funny but not intentionally. It is just flinging any concept at the screen and hoping it works, and it seems like every character is in a different movie. The stuff on the Star Destroyer is just incompentent. JJ giving jobs to his friends so they can insist Finn and Poe are just friends. That nonsense with the worm and the desert and Poe as Indiana Jones and Threepio and "Ben" who never talks and, seriously, JJ, you couldn't get Harrison to SHAVE before you put him into a "dream sequence"? The only thing funnier than TROS was all the TLJ fanboys screaming that LFL had kowtowed to the haters and the haters screaming back about how awful TROS was too. Oh, and Rey Skywalker. I mean, yay, they reunited the fandom. Too bad it was to hate TROS...