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Legacy #47: The Fate of Dac

Discussion in 'Literature' started by Xicer, Jan 7, 2010.

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  1. AdmiralNick22

    AdmiralNick22 Fleet Admiral of Literature star 6 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    May 28, 2003
    Those numbers could be significantly lower (for both species), considering Stazi only learned of the poisoning three days after it began. (And Isen said it would only take seven).

    While I take no pleasure in the death of so many Quarren, it is important to note that Stazi only made his "one out of ten" comment only after learning that the Quarren were demanding that their citizens take precedent over the Whaladons and Moappa. IIRC, both the Whaladons and Moappa are sentient species, despite their lacking humanoid form. So in my mind the Quarren were saying that their lives valued more than anyone elses.

    Not a good PR move, especially when your only ride off planet is the Galactic Alliance.

    And, we cannot overlook that the Quarren stood by while their Mon Cal neighbors were killed and enslaved. They collaborated with the Sith, who have the blood of untold billions on their hands. Don't forget that 1/10th of the Mon Cals were killed on Krayt's order at the start of the genocide. That is already one billion less Mon Cals.

    Please don't take my comments to mean I am unfeeling for the Quarren. Far from it. I merely wanted to point out that they are far from blameless or innocent.

    In the end, it was a tragedy on a planetary scale. I can only hope that if the GA/Felpire/Jedi alliance defeats the Sith that one day Dac can be restored.

    --Adm. Nick
     
  2. The2ndQuest

    The2ndQuest Tri-Mod With a Mouth star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Jan 27, 2000
    To be fair- we don't know what percentage of the Quarren population was able to evacuate on their own before Stazi arrived. They were permitted to, they just didn't get any assistance from the Sith-Imps. The Quarren must have has access to ships and transports of their own, after all.

    For all we know, it could have been only 20% of the Quarren population remaining on Dac by time Stazi got there, so the ratio of saved Quarren would be significantly higher than the Mon Cal.
     
  3. AdmiralNick22

    AdmiralNick22 Fleet Admiral of Literature star 6 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    May 28, 2003
    That is an excellent point, Quest. Quarren could move freely on Dac while Mon Cals were either interned in slave camps or hiding. It is possible that a fairly good chunk of the Quarren were able to leave. Hell, if Stazi can rescue a few billion in the course of a day, imagine how many Quarren left during the first three days.

    --Adm. Nick
     
  4. QuentinGeorge

    QuentinGeorge Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Dec 12, 2003
    While I take no pleasure in the death of so many Quarren, it is important to note that Stazi only made his "one out of ten" comment only after learning that the Quarren were demanding that their citizens take precedent over the Whaladons and Moappa

    The Quarren are 60% of the planet's population. If you're interested in saving the greatest amount of the planet's population (as opposed to just the species you like), the Quarren -have- to take precedence.
     
  5. Vrook_Lamar

    Vrook_Lamar Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    May 12, 2008
    While I see your point:

    The Mon Calamari population has already been decimated.

    More Mon Cals have been being smuggled off or removed as slaves.

    The non-Mon Cals were allowed to leave by Darth Wyrlokk giving them a minimum 3 day head start on the evacuation.

    The history books will probably look unfavourably on Gar Stazi for that choice, but others will hate him for making any consession to the Quarren.
     
  6. QuentinGeorge

    QuentinGeorge Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Dec 12, 2003
    The Mon Calamari may have been decimated, but as Hydro points out, Gar Stazi has effectively killed 97% of Quarren, less any that escaped on their own (a highly speculative number many here seem to conjure up to defend the racist despot).
     
  7. Vrook_Lamar

    Vrook_Lamar Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    May 12, 2008
    The sith killed the Quarren. Gar Stazi saved 3% of the Qurren.

    Even if the Quarren had recieved a "balanced" 60% of the transports he'd have only saved 3.24 billion Quarren (20% of the population). So Gar Stazi can be accused of killing at most 17% of the Quarren (still 2.74 billion individuals).

    He's not a despot, he's an insurgeant. Stazi doesn't rule anything.

    The Quarren who knew about the poisoning to get away and had access to ships were probably the rich ones who were in league with the Sith, so the ones left Stazi left to die were probably the more GA friendly ones.
     
  8. Lord_Hydronium

    Lord_Hydronium Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 11, 2002
    But did every Quarren deserve to be punished for that?

    I mean, I agree with you that that was probably his reasoning, because that seems to be Stazi's thing, making these horrible decisions from knee-jerk emotional responses. Corde and Torlin screw up his meeting, he gets stabby with Bovark (his initial response to this one has grounding; the way he ignores Bovark's pleas for reason, less so). Fenel tweaks him, he helps the Sith. Some Quarren get pushy, he lets the whole species be genocided.
     
  9. AusStig

    AusStig Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Feb 3, 2010
    HE LEFT THEM TO DIE. Just like Anakin did to the Jabiimi loyalists. I doubt Stazi cared he probably, just didn't want to look like a monster.

    I am sure the Quarren are used to this sort of treatment by now. I mean after the first war with the Mon cal. The Mon Cal STOLL THEIR CHILDREN!
    But it's okay cause the Mon Cal are on our side :rolleyes: . We had something similar happen in my country we called it the Stolen generation.

    But I digress, also Nick, how do you know the Quarrens simply allowed their neighbors to be killed. Time For Godwins law. When the Nazi's were putting Jews in concentration camps many non-jews helped them to escape, similar thing probely happened here. Though I doubt we will hear anything about it, beyond that councilor said in issue 22, because the Mon Cal are all good beings and the Quarrens are all evil jerks :rolleyes:.

    Still Stazi had to choose between allies or beings who's loyalty to his cause would be luke-warm at best, so tough choice, maybe if had captured those ships in issue 36 he could have saved them.
     
  10. The2ndQuest

    The2ndQuest Tri-Mod With a Mouth star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Jan 27, 2000
    How many Quarren escaped on their own is an important factor, though. If, let's say for sake of argument, 90% of the Quarren escaped, then Stazi's decision to favor the larger Mon Cal populations and non-space-capable sentient species with evacuation makes a lot more sense (and, even, would prove thatStazi wasn't sticking to strict numbers and was unwilling to let all the remaining Quarren die if he could help it).

    Now, it probably wasn't 90% but that context matters. You can't even assume it's zero or a low percentage because this is Dac we're talking about- there is a crapload of ships on and around that planet to which the Quarren would have free access to whatever Imperial occupational forces couldn't/didn't take with them.
     
  11. Xicer

    Xicer Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 21, 2008
    Holy bucket of awesomeness! This issue was...awesome!
     
  12. Robimus

    Robimus Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 6, 2007
    lol, the Sith are responsible for the deaths on Dac. How you are now painting Stazi as a murderer is beyond me.

    He in fact murdered no one. While there may be moral implications toward his heavy handedness in his treatment of the Quarren refugees, the blame for the genocide of everyone on Dac does not fall on Stazi.

    The Quarren as a race could have stood up against the Sith as the Mon Cal's did. Instead they decided to make a political ally and endorse the genocide of the Mon Calamari.

    Did all the Quarren do this, no. Was the Death Star's crew all evil murders, no. Still, one sleeps in the bed they made for themselves, for better or worse.

    I'll take Stazi as an ally over Wyyrlok any day of the week.
     
  13. Lord_Hydronium

    Lord_Hydronium Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 11, 2002
    He might not have dropped the virus, but he is culpable in aiding in the genocide of the Quarrens. Choosing to leave people to a certain death?and keep in mind, this isn't just an unhappy accident, it's a deliberate order to leave them behind to die and shoot them if they try to escape?is just as morally culpable an act as pulling the trigger oneself.

    The Death Star was a military target on which the vast majority chose to be (or at least serve in the military that used it). No one got a choice in being a Quarren or living on Sith-occupied Dac.

    And that reasoning sounds exactly like Krayt's for killing the Mon Cals in the first place.

    It is, but I don't think it makes as major a difference as you're saying. The Quarren were lobbying Stazi and the evacuation fleet for a way out en masse, suggesting that there was a significant portion with no way off the planet; and Stazi treats it as an issue of the entire species, not a few Quarren left behind. We still have a serious parity issue unless about 93% of the Quarren made it off the planet (at which point the 1/10 would be numerically fair, but I'd still consider Stazi's actual orders and thought process to be racist and messed up as hell).
     
  14. The_Four_Dot_Elipsis

    The_Four_Dot_Elipsis Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Mar 3, 2005
    Even with his Dac-soiling expression at the end, Wyyrlok remains the complete and utter badass of the series.

    First issue I've read in a...year? Or so? Very enjoyable though. I'm not sure what's so good about Jaeger, though. :p

    ...


    What a nut Stazi is. He's like the Klaus Kinski of the GFFA or something.
     
  15. Darth_SHOT

    Darth_SHOT Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Sep 11, 2004
    the first thing that came to my mind when i saw Wyyrlock's face was [link=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a1Y73sPHKxw]this[/link]...

    EDIT: wait wait wait! [link=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WiloZd1H4ow&feature=related]this[/link] one is even more appropriate:p
     
  16. AdmiralNick22

    AdmiralNick22 Fleet Admiral of Literature star 6 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    May 28, 2003
    I find it somewhat suprising that almost every post about Stazi decision regarding the Quarren paints him as being the engine of genocide. I see little to no anger expressed towards the Sith, who instituted the genocide.

    Let's do a quick recap of the Genocide of Dac.

    1. Due to their support of Stazi and the GA Remnant, Darth Krayt orders 1/10 of the Mon Cal population executed immediately. Right there, based on the Atlas numbers, means over one billion Mon Cals were dead.

    2. The remaining 9/10ths of Dac's Mon Calamari population are forced into labor camps/concentration camps. Undoubtedly, many more (especially the young, old, and weak) died.

    3. The Sith then unleash the Sea Leviathan, which decimates Mon Cal refugees hiding in Dac's oceans.

    4. Fed up with the slow progess, Wyyrlok orders a "Final Solution".

    By the time Stazi arrives at Dac, over three days have passed. During those three days, the Quarren were free to leave Dac as they pleased. Imagine all of those Mon Cals who were kept in undersea camps (as we saw in #32 and 33) who couldn't escape. As Quest points out, it is very likely that a huge percentage of the Quarren population escaped, considering that a shipyard world like Dac has access to untold numbers of starships, transports, shuttles, and other craft.

    If anyone else is to blame, it is the Quarren leadership on Dac. As far as I am concerned, the blood of their people is on their own hands. They collaborated with the Sith and unfortunately many innocent Quarren paid the price for their actions.

    --Adm. Nick
     
  17. The2ndQuest

    The2ndQuest Tri-Mod With a Mouth star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Jan 27, 2000
    Again, in fairness, when you're dealing with desperate scenarios like this where crowds can threaten to overload transports/order, it wouldn't be the first time where officers/guards would have to fire upon people disobeying orders to maintain crowd control and save the most lives.

    Well, with the numbers we're dealing with, even single digit percentiles would be a significant number of people.

    And I'd argue that Stazi doesn't treat it as a racial issue- he's not thumbing his (metaphorical) nose up at the Quarren because they're Quarren, but rather because they're collaborators. Though he's probably guilty of ignoring his generalization.

    If this were the Vong War, people would understand the decision to save refugees over Peace Brigade, afterall.

    He hasn't shown up since broken, really. ;)
     
  18. MercenaryAce

    MercenaryAce Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 10, 2005
    Plus, the numbers of people estimated dead and saved based off his line about every tenth ship being designated for the Qurran is operating under the assumption that all the ships have the same carrying capacity. Hypothetically speaking, if the first nine ships are light freighters and the tenth is a Venator, then more Quarren would be saved than anyone else.

    Course, this strikes more of a writing mistake than anything - I bet most people out of universe would assume tha tthe Mon Cals were the majority of the population. Do the authors put up endnotes somewhere?
     
  19. The_Four_Dot_Elipsis

    The_Four_Dot_Elipsis Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Mar 3, 2005
    So if this...

    [image=http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20090602043752/starwars/images/2/2f/WyyrlokUnfazed.jpg]

    ...is Wyyrlok under pressure, then...

    [image=http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20100501094707/starwars/images/0/08/WyyrlokSurprise-Legacy47.jpg]

    ...something's gone wrong big-time, I'm guessing. o_O
     
  20. jfostrander01

    jfostrander01 Writer: Dawn of the Jedi, Agent of the Empire star 3 VIP

    Registered:
    Oct 26, 2001
    You have GOT to be kidding me. The Sith poison Dac -- a freaking planet -- and STAZI is the villain?

    If Stazi gave precedence to the Mon Cal, it's because a) they were his ALLIES and b) as pointed out elsewhere, the Quarren had a three day head start on getting off planet. They were not helped by the Sith, with whom they collaborated. And then the Quarren DEMAND to be taken ahead of other species. They act as if THEY are the ones to decide who gets saved and who not. If it was up to the Quarren, ONLY they would have been saved and evacuated.

    And STAZI is responsible for all those who died because they couldn't be evacuated in time? That wasn't just Quarren -- not all the Mon Cal could be evacuated, either. Every Quarren he took meant one less Mon Cal got out alive.

    How many Quarren ever aided him or his cause? CONSIDERABLY less than 10%. The Quarren were quislings, working WITH the Sith. IMO, Stazi was in NO obligation -- moral or otherwise -- to help them.

    What Stazi did was triage -- saved who he could. He favored those who had helped him -- and who had suffered for it. The Mon Cal stood by him and he -- and the others who showed up -- stood by them. He put his own fleet and his own life on the line to do it.

    I'm not saying Stazi is a saint. He isn't. Was never meant to be. He's flawed -- which makes him interesting, IMO.

    And because the point was raised -- yes, I knew the percentages of the population on Dac.

    -- John O
     
  21. MercenaryAce

    MercenaryAce Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 10, 2005

    Right. Sorry about that.
     
  22. KraytDragon_Killer

    KraytDragon_Killer Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    Mar 13, 2009
    I agree 100% with John :D


     
  23. Jedi Ben

    Jedi Ben Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Jul 19, 1999
    Wow, reading the last page of this thread I can only say this:

    It is Star WARS. And war is not entertaining, pretty or nice - it is instead an artificial hell where there are few to no easy solutions and the whole time morality is effectively in intensive care on a life support machine!

    And yet, people seem to think that the heroes should be able to achieve anything and everything, even if it is way beyond what anyone could expect in relation to the power and resources open to the heroes. I mean, what happened to blaming the actual villains? Why do people have these unrealistic expectations of the good guys, while wanting realism in just about every other area?

    (John O has already nailed this better, but I wanted to add in a few pennies.)
     
  24. Black-Dog

    Black-Dog Jedi Knight star 4

    Registered:
    May 27, 2008
    I was hoping someone would show it, thanks. :)

    [image=http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc3/hs551.snc3/30185_417837191809_545236809_5288116_10388_n.jpg]
     
  25. deafblindandmute

    deafblindandmute Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    Oct 3, 2009
    of course there is still the qwuestion of what was happening on the Mon Calamari colonies. if they had to be evacuated, the Quarren can always be evicted from their colonies and sent of to the UR to sulk with the Red Sith, Taung, Rakata, Vagaari and Ebruchi.

    actually thats probably whats going to happen to them.



     
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