Let's clear this up once and for all...the Force and speed

(FTR, you made me do this, Excellence. )

What the Wookiee said

Now I can accept that Jedi can use the Force to increase their speed in doing things in Star Wars in the same way I can accept that they can use the Force to cast lightning bolts, levitate objects and choke people.

And while I don't do martial arts myself, I also know that it is possible to do things very fast in combat in this galaxy, of course your average John Q Public odds on is no Ray Park or Bob Anderson

Something else interesting about "The Duel"

(I know the above bit is more film-related, but even I thought it was digitally sped up as that's what's done in films)

Any arguments? Any? I hope to prove this point here, or at least get the impression it does have merit for consideration.

 

It's quite easy, dear Katana. On one hand, you have my pragmtism of realism . . . and on the other hand, you'll have most of the forum.

They're going to say "the force moves you faster." As though it's this mantra of belief that can't think you otherwise. And I will say, that's reallistically implausable. There's only so many times your fists can pull back and punch; Windu gave jungle boy 6 in a second.

A book's a book. Read it for fun. But please don't anyone tell me it's humanly possible because they've done it themselves in their martial arting. Enhanced velocity will only go so far. And if anyone tells me to use the force I'll throw a Goompa at them. Canape me some real discussion, something I can eat and get back to you tomorrow night.

 

You know Ex, one of these days we're going to have to meet face to face just for the hell of it. I may be in Sydney later this year...

And now, since you have responded to my thrown down gauntlet, I notice you have not commented on the part where I talk about The Duel which was not digitally sped up.

Until you have at least some comment about the fact that fights in real life CAN happen really fast, and that the Force is merely an extension of that, I will remain where I am in terms of opinion.

However, I can be convinced, convincingly and as long as it's convincing.

It's late *yawn*

 

My cable is having speed issues. Only so much I can manage at a time. I will surprise your mental image of me. I am not what I holo here.

Okay ... how can I riposte that? Hmmm. As you said, they've rehearsed that for months. It was a stop-and-start-fight, spread out over many mini-scenes. It's how Jackie Chan did it in Rumble in the Bronx, his long fights look like a single tale but they weren't.

So Katana, they know where to swing, they know what to do, and not all that sabering was so fast it needed forcing. In tenel ka, I mean, in fact, what I saw anyone could really do, their close-quarter moments.

 

"Hey, it's a kind of magic."
[image=http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h125/Ulicus/highlanderrussell.jpg]

I can land two punches (from the hip) in one second. It doesn't really stretch me to assume a Jedi Master would be able to land six. Time slows down when they're having fun.

Take SotE. Time slows to a crawl and Luke has time to get up and demolish Guri in the time she's taking to punch his lights out? I wouldn't be surprised if there was some sort of space/time bending going on when it came to acts of superspeed.

And, yeah, I know that won't satisfy you Ex... but... that's how it is. Magic.

 

There may be choreography in the films, but you can still do choreographed fights slow, look at the some of the Robin Hood films.

What will it take you, Ex, to suspend your disbelief? If you accept telekenisis, if you accept Force lighting, both of which are illogical and well in the realm of fantasy, Force Speed has to be accepted too.

And I do realise that you do not resemble something furry and grey with big ears, lives in trees and has been known to sleep in his own excrement...on second thoughts....

 

Mental image of koalas ruined vs fortitude save: failed. Phew.

Oh, I'm not refuting the possibility in its entirety. Sure, you can move fast. My disbelief primarily stems from the Shatterpoint brawls. Ulicus, I thought someone would point out the Guri moment. I can accept it. It's a legitimate force power, to slow your perception of surroundings up. Computer-enhanced people can do it all the time; droids can at any moment.

Actually . . . actually, telekinesis is not really all that impossible. It's a big galaxy. If you can have species with infrared vision, or species with sensitive hearing, sure, why not species with TK like the midi mages?

 

And if you carry that argument to it's conclusion Ex, you can also have Force speed.

Kyle Katarn does it every other day, I doubt he uses anything else to get around.

EDIT: Oh and about that koala, I have seen one sleep like that, it was on an awning though and I found it very amusing.

 

I'm equable to a reasonable extent. Beyond it, it strains creduality of human limits.

 

Maybe you're underestimating humans, then.

 

We already know that the Force makes Jedi superhuman.

It lends much-increased strength to their bodies.

It allows them to leap several times their own height.

It allows them to place their lightsabers in precisely the right path to deflect masses of "bullets".

It allows them to simply disarm opponents with their minds.

So why is it so hard to believe it can let them move faster than an ordinary human can? Especially when an ordinary human can easily land two or three punches a second?

 

To be the Exasperator and Excalibur of Reason is to cause a grandfather paradox. I'll not risk it.

 

And to be Excellent as well? Sorry, couldn't resist.

 

Let's move away from the "punch" fights for a second.

Let's focus on another instance...Qui Gon and Obi's mad dash in TPM.

Now are we to assume that this was a force manipulation of their muscles, allowing them to actually run that fast...

or

Is it that the force has enabled a form of "bubble" in which their actions are dramatically accelerated in the perception of real time?

Personally, I don't buy the "force turns Jedi into roadrunners" mythos...there has to be something going on beyond the body to allow these impossible feats to occur.

Jedi are some of the most physically fit and trained beings in the universe...but even they couldn't achieve those acts, even with a shot of HGH "Force Power".

Something else is happening beyond reflex and strength.

 

The Force does NOT by itself make the Jedi any faster than a normal human (or species) on a regular basis -- though Jedi training, involvin rigorous physical training of body, will help speed up the body's reactions / reflexes to an above-average but still normal level.

However, a Jedi CALLING on the Force can achieve superhuman speeds (see: Qui-Gon Jinn and Obi-Wan Kenobi running from droidekas in TPM).

 

I personally think of it more as a sideways force jump thing than any thing else (stronger leg push off=less actual running, like BFII), though I don't quite remember how its explained in Shadow Hunter...

 

We see exaggerated cases of Force sensitives demonstrating awe-inspiring speed; Darth Sidious was capable of moving a lightsaber with such speed that Darth Maul could not track it, with such efficiency that he was capable of tracing Maul's outline with a lightsaber, and it was said that "one twich" of a muscle would have dismembered him; Mace Windu capable of punching Kar Vastor six times in succession before Vastor could blink; Luke Skywalker and Darth Caedus moving faster than the eye could follow in their duel aboard the Anakin Solo.

The speeds and reflexes portrayed in the movies do not demonstrate as much. Darth Sidious and Mace Windu looked particularly slow and unagile in their duel in the Chancellor's office. Even duels where combatants are entirely CGI animated do not demonstrate such particular speed. Does that mean that movie combatants are slower?

NO.

Leeland Chee was asked this question on the Holocron question thread at Star Wars.com and answered that "speeds depicted in the EU do not contradict those in the movie." That is to say that a film lacks the ability to coordinate a fight "faster than the eye could follow" (we couldn't see it), thus why people accuse the three Jedi Masters in Palpatine's office of being novices. They weren't (indeed, according to the novelization, they were some of the finest swordsmen in the Order's history). They reacted so slowly because Palpatine was simply that much faster than them. A rule of thumb is that any of the upper tier Jedi and Sith can likely move faster than the eye can see. Movies don't change that.

 

If you want to talk about credibility being stretched... well, that lay more in the actual act of lightsaber duels than it does in the speed at which they are done. Were any of our esteemed Jedi and Sith actual swordmasters they wouldn't be looking to block and parry so much as they'd be looking for the kill. Did anyone watch the Olympic fencing competition? It's not fun to watch... but I've read duels between swordmasters where they are depicted as being so good they don't have to block or parry, each swordmaster just isn't where the other thrusts or strokes when they thrust or stroke.

Now, Ex, as regards speed... I'm wondering what your yardstick for measurement is for the human body only being able to pull back and **** so fast... let alone if you know enough about the mechanics of fighting to measure it. You statement leads me to believe you're suggesting that all punches must be thrown according to the human equivalent of the hammer of a gun pulling back, cocking, and then firing with every punch and this just isn't true. When I, in my mind's eye, imagine Mace Windu throwing six punches within a second I imagine more of a flurry of punches not being pulled all the way back to say... the shoulder. And especially not one-handed.

Now, check these out:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rYtyvH7vSHw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7UlVA_p-S0I&feature=related

You don't need the Force to explain that kind of speed, perhaps only to explain the power behind the punches. You know, like when Denning says Luke or Leia or whoever uses a Force punch of kick I don't think he means they're using the Force to give themselves more momentum and thus more inertia, but literally for them to transfer more power via the Force even from a short range punch or kick. Which is trained in the internal martial arts every day, that's kind of one of the many functions of qigung in martial arts. That and the internal muscle and tendon mechanics involved. One can deliver devastating power from short ranges, and even a certain kind of penetrating power in punches that look like nothing. It HURTS when you get hit just in the arm with such a punch and the pain shoots from the point of impact to your chest in short order.

Jedi and Sith are the galaxy's top martial artists who've been doing pretty much nothing but training their whole lives, and on top of that they have the Force to back them up. The Force, in so many ways, is fantastical beyond belief.

 

Actually, just from following the prequels, you can see a decided choice to "slow down" lightsaber combat in episode 2 and 3 vs. that of Episode 1...All of the Darth Maul duels, and in particular that with Obi-wan, were so fast in their choreography...and that is certainly not the case in Episode 2 with Dooku (if you want to see digital speed at it's peek...pay attention ONLY to Christopher Lee in the Yoda duel...your jaw will drop)...and only approaches those proportions briefly in the anakin/obi-wan duel in 3.

Now the reasons for this could be numerous...from the relative age of the dueling participants, to the "staged" appearance of the choreography not generating a sense of realism for some in the audience...but the In-universe reality of combat was presented in episode 1...we saw how fast the combat could get moving...and Obi-wan wasn't even the best possible duelist the Jedi could put out there...you certainly could see better trained, more experienced Jedi being able to surpass the padawan's prowess on Theed.

 

There is a short fragment in Darth BaneoD that sheds some light(from my POV anyway) on the 'speed of lightasber duels' issue.

When two Masters engaged in lightsaber combat, the action happened too quickly for the eye to see or the mind to react. Everything had to be done on instinct; the body had to be trained to move and respond without conscious thought. To accomplish this, Kas'im made his students practice sequences, carefully choreographed series of multiple strikes and parries drawn from their chosen style. The sequences were designed by the Blademaster himself so that each maneuver flowed smoothly into the next, maximizing attack efficiency while minimizing defensive exposure.

Using a sequence in combat allowed the students to free their minds from thought as their bodies automatically continued through the moves. Using sequences was more efficient and much quicker than considering and initiating each strike or block on its own, providing an enormous advantage over an opponent unfamiliar with the technique.


That,along with a force user maintaining himself at the peak of his physical abilities,does it for me,since actually using Force Speed is very draining and i don't really see it happening in a duel(unless your Palpatine of course).

 

Can I just interject (on the subject of Mace v. Kar in Shatterpoint, on which I hope I might be considered a reliable source, and the supposed "six punches in under a second")?

Just the facts (or should I call it the pragmatism of reality?):

First, not all hand-strikes are conventional punches. I myself can hand-strike four times in a second or less, and I've been out of training for five years. Nor does a punch need to be "pulled back" in order to be effective, as Bruce Lee so vividly demonstrated by knocking down a larger man with his famous "one-inch punch" (though actually it's closer to two inches, as the punch begins with the extended fingers touching the man's chest). Any well-trained boxer can deliver devastating power with punches that travel six inches or less, as power is a function of weight-shift and timing; hand-speed is significant primarily in terms of getting the fist in position to deliver that power.

Second -- though I don't have time to go over the entire novel line-by-line -- the only reference I can find to Mace delivering six unanswered strikes in succession makes no reference to "under one second." The timescale referred to (on p242 of the mm edition) is "Before Vastor could even focus his eyes." Kar was "half-stunned" (cf p241) at the time, due to an exceptionally powerful blow to the solar plexus; and as someone who has suffered strike-induced stunning more than once, I can tell you that the length of time required to re-acquire your visual focus can vary widely, from the aforementioned "under one second" to several seconds, or even minutes (in head trauma). Sometimes several hours, or even days (in the event of concussion). Then Mace hits him twice in the nose "before he can even blink" -- speed of the blink reflex being again dependent on elements of brain function that are disrupted by head trauma. In other words, the sequence is less about Mace's speed than it is about how much punishment Vastor can take and keep fighting.

Finally, of the six strikes in the sequence in question, only two are conventional punches: two hooks to the ribs. The other strikes are, respectively, an up-elbow, a knee(!) to the thigh, and two palm strikes to the hinges of the jaw.

What this says about "Force speed" is dubious at best, as Force-speed was in no way required for this particular feat. So it doesn't prove anything either way, and really is not germane to this discussion.

Okay?

 

Thank you so much for all you have contributed to SW and our favorite universe. I have a genuine like of the majority of the SW authors and can really find something enjoyable about all of them...but you....MAN! You take the whole bakery in this universe!

I'm a martial artist as well, I practice Tang Soo Do, are you into any kind of style in particular?

 

Straight from the man himself's mouth (or keyboard, anyway).

Thanks for stepping in to put things in the proper perspective!


Anyway, IIRC Maul's speeding in Shadow Hunter is described as a series of Force-assisted horizontal leaps, so he's not actually windmilling his legs to move that fast or anything. Also IIRC, Obi-wan and Qui-gon in TPM don't appear to be moving their legs much faster than a normal person running; it's merely the distance they cover that seems unbelievable.

 

Force speed is dubious in the PT because the choreography was simply so fast that it is very plausible that none of the choreography was speeded up. GL makes a similar assertion in the EP III commentaries. This can be also be corroborated by various documentary scenes which can be compared to similar final cut scenes.

There are places, however, where speed does not equate with the real world and becomes cinematic exaggeration. In scenes in which a human actor (or a stunt double) interacts with a digital creature, speed will be exaggerated. Dooku's stunt double moved with human speed but it may have been sped up during the digital insert process in which Yoda was interfaced into Gillard's choreography. The same for Sidious' body twirl when he attack the posse, which was a digital creation.

Lightsaber rotoscoping was also more challenging in the PT. It is more difficult to actually see the lightsaber props in individual stills. To see this is true, advance through a lightsaber scene one frame at a time at a speed of roughly 1 second/frame. You're liable to lose the placement and direction of the blade even though it's a flat, 2-dimensional image. Speed up the image sequece to 2 frames/second and it's easier to see blade movement. If frames were filmed at 24 frames/second, it is still difficult to perfectly paint in the blur of moving props. The Bartlett-scene between Anakin and Dooku in EP II would present difficulties to rotoscopers as well.

Exaggerated speed is also evident in the elevator scene in which Obi-Wan makes 7 slashes; Anakin, 6 slashes. There are only 8 droids. The visual appeal was to show the mesmerizing lightsaber slashes, when all eight could have been taken out in a single lightsaber sweep that would have lasted 1/8th of a second in the real world. Obviously, the visual effects were preferred to a real world (common sense) move.

There are moments where digital speed stands out, like Anakin's jump to block Dooku's slash at Obi-Wan in EP II and Anakin's jump across the conference room toward Obi-Wan on Mustafar. Our eyes detect artificial movement (whether speeded up or simply a digital animation that moves too fast) very easily. Real world lightsaber prop movement looks impressive enough that it doesn't have to be sped up.

Super human speed, however, needs a visual framework in which to create belief. The EP I scene in which there is a blur when Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon retreat from droidekas succeeds because the blur seems to explain a Force power. [The screenplay says, "OBI-WAN and QUI-GON are nowhere to be seen." The next comment says, "The Jedi materialize at the far end of the hallway and dash through a doorway that slams shut."]

We're so used to super human feats on film that they're practically considered mandatory. Apart from martial art movies, incredible super human feats can be seen in many jet fighter sequences. Pilots would pass out from the aggressive turns seen in many ariel dogfight sequences. Transformers stick out in my mind as a recent example.

For the PT, clearly Gillard's emphasis is on fantastic lightsaber speed in the duels with relentless attacks. Diamond's choreography emphasizes traditional swordplay in which a attack is met by a defense, then a counter attack. The opening scene in Luke's duel with Vader on Bespin shows this. Diamond was a fencer, Gillard is not.

 

When Jedi Outcast was released, there was only a single Matrix movie, not Matrix movies plural.