Lightning is a Sith Power!!

>>>Again, how do you know (or why do you think) that a person has to tap into the Dark Side to use Force-lightning? You can't assume what you're arguing and then start from there.

As I see it,
Force-lightning is using the Force to attack.
Using the Force to attack is the Dark Side.

>>>I'm saying that Force-lightning can be accessed from both the Light Side and the Dark Side, and which way it is accessed from depends on the intent of the person accessing it.

Well, I don't think that there's such a thing as "the light side", and that using the Force to generate a lethal bolt of energy cannot be anything other than the Dark Side.

 

Clearly, no one has been paying any attention to what I'm saying. Or maybe they did pay attention but simply chose to ignore it.

Either way, since spelling it out once or thrice had no effect, I'll just spell it out again:

Force-lightning may in fact be a Sith-power. But there is no conclusive evidence that it is indeed a Sith-power.

There is significant evidence to heavily prove it is a dark side power and none to prove it is not.

You can't "prove" something while being less than one hundred percent certain about it. What you can do is give a high probability that Force-lightning is a Dark Side power, but you most definitely can't prove it.

And Scott: I still don't see why you think Force-lightning is being used for attack. If the Jedi is using it for self-defense (to save himself from five strong-minded gangsters when he doesn't have a lightsaber).

-Aunecah

 

dont worry Aunecah_Skywalker I know EXACTALLY what your saying

 

I think what some people are trying to say is that individual powers are sometimes not in themselves evil. It is the person who is using them that makes them evil.

A Force-user who goes into battle wielding Force Lightning can be thought of as using the darkside, because it is a heavy form of attack. However, if a Force-user was to use Force Lightning to restart a heart that had gone into cardiac arrest, this in itself is not evil.

And as for the person who said that only Vader could use the Force Choke, this is very improbable. All Vader is doing here is using telekinesis to stop air flow to the lungs. Telekinesis is one of the Jedi's main traits and it is unlikely that any other Jedi would be unable to direct it to closing off someone's wind pipe. They wouldn't do this if they were a Jedi, though.

 

Force-lightning may in fact be a Sith-power. But there is no conclusive evidence that it is indeed a Sith-power.

And nowhere in any of my arguments did I dispute this. I merely stated that all known evidence points to having to use the dark side to use the power. That's not the same thing as stating you have to be a Sith.

You can't "prove" something while being less than one hundred percent certain about it. What you can do is give a high probability that Force-lightning is a Dark Side power, but you most definitely can't prove it.

Fine, then with all the evidence presented, would you agree that it is a high probability that Force Lightning is a dark side power?

And I'd like to see a Jedi restart a heart with FL! In the few instances we've seen of the power, the bolts are wildly arcing and not at all focused. We've seen no evidence that the power could be channelled into a beam or something. Is it worth burning a poor guy alive to restart his heart? I'd wonder about the Jedi who did that.

L8r

 

It was merely an example. What I was trying to say is that just because something can be used for evil doesn't mean that it can't be used for good. Take the Jedi' ability to interact with the mind of others for example. This can be used as a form of psychotherapy to help cure mental illness in people. On the other hand, it can be used to take control of another's mind for the bidding of the Force-user in question.

And it isn't likely that a Force-User would use Force Lightning the same way for attack as he would for healing. The reason we haven't seen it focused to a great degree is because it is being used with a great deal of power, which usually means less control. I'm not saying it definitely can be used for healing, but to say that it can't be used just from what we've seen from the films is a little hasty.

 

>>>>And Scott: I still don't see why you think Force-lightning is being used for attack. If the Jedi is using it for self-defense (to save himself from five strong-minded gangsters when he doesn't have a lightsaber).

Because as I see it, when the Force is being used to create devastating bolts of power and fire them at someone, that's the Dark Side; using the Force as a weapon, to attack someone. It's presented as being very clear-cut- you don't use the Dark Side without it corrupting you.

I mean... "A Jedi uses the Force for knowledge and defence- never for attack." doesn't quite have the same ring to it when followed by the small print;

-Unless it's in self defence,
-Unless they've lost their lightsaber,
-Unless it's a last resort,
-Unless their lives would otherwise be in danger,
-Unless they really want to.


I mean, suppose there's your five big gansters threatning a Jedi, and that did make it acceptable to use lightning.
What if there were only four? Or only one? What if they claimed to be armed, but the weapons were hidden and not plainly visisble- would it stop it from being the Dark Side if the Jedi thought they were armed? What if the Jedi was a huge hulking Rancor-like monster, or a tiny little Yoda- would that make a difference? Where do you draw the line?

(Also, if it was perfectly acceptable for Jedi to use the Force to attack as a last resort, wouldn't Obi Wan and Anakin have handled being attacked by monsters in the Geonosis arena differently?)

 

If Jedis could use Force Lightning, even as a defensive means, then they would certainly do it during the battle on Geonosis. And Yoda would also use it against Dooku. But they didn't. And Yoda sensed the Dark Side inside Dooku when he used this power. Come on, even a 5 year old kid can make the conclusion that Force Lightning is a Dark Side power...

 

I believe Force lightning is a corruption of the Force and is only used by those who have studied the dark arts. The points of my well spoken colleague are well said.

 

because there was no need for electrical energy on Geonosis, an example of a use was if one of the republic gun ships needed an electirc charge to get started then a jedi could use lightening in the spirit of helping the clones and their fellow jedi in escaping a doom you see where lighteing can be used as a defense? but thre was no need for it on Geonosis. So you cant judge that battle. Or basically any battle untill you see a situation where lightening would be benificial.

 

If Mace or Yoda don't use Force Lightning in the next movie, then the only characters in the entire saga who would have used it are bad guys. George Lucas would have had 6 different movies to show a Jedi using this ability. If he doesn't, then there must be reason. And what could the reason possibly be? Oh yeah, it's a dark side power!!! Why else would he repeatedly show the bad guys using it and not the good guys?

L8r

 

Luke used Force Choke against the palace guards in Jedi."

Thats true expecially since its considered a "sith" power

I'd bet GL would say that the lightning is a Sith only power, but I'd rather think that it's not what you are using it's what you are using it for.

What if instead of Luke using telekinesis to get a blster to try and shoot Jabba, Luke hit Jabba with lightning? Would he then have started down the path to the darkside because of his use of an 'evil power"? I don't think so.

Couldnt have said it any better myself

 

The force choke could be the beginning of the corruption that would lead to the ability to use force lightning. Luke was dangerously close to the Dark Side anyway at the start of the film, and did not necassarily realise it was putting him in a dangerous position spiritually.

 

Again, all of these hypothetical situational uses for Force Lightning have no bearing on the facts at hand. Force Lightning is a dark side power. It is a violent and damaging power. The only people to have ever used the power have been corrupted by the dark side of the Force. When Palpatine and Dooku want to show off their great new powers, they show off the FL. When Yoda comments about the dark side in Dooku, it's after Dooku used FL. The frickin' ROTJ screenplay called it "evil lightning"!!!

This is not a nice power. It is used for violent attack. Could a Jedi use it? Conceivably, but they would be opening a door best left closed. The road to hell is paved with good intentions and Jedi are supposed to be noble and pure, not guys who will keep the peace by any means necessary. Jedi don't play dirty. Using FL would be playing dirty and might cause them to fall to the dark side.

And since I can't say it any more plainly than that, I hereby leave this thread in peace.

L8r

 

ugg, I see there's no chance you'll listen to reason

 

Listen to reason about what? The question at hand is whether Force Lightning is a Sith power. We determined that any Force user can and should be able to use any Force power. So no, it is not strictly a Sith ability. So the question then became whether Force Lightning was a power Jedi or Sith would both use. I think evidence points to only dark side Force users using this power (since this ability has no intrinsic positive uses and we've always witnessed its most negative of consequences). I offered plenty of evidence to support this.

We have to use the information and facts presented in the films and surrounding literature. There is nothing nowhere that says anyone professing to use the light side of the Force would ever use Force Lightning. This isn't about what we think of the power so much as what Lucas thinks about it and how he presents it in his work. Lucas obviously thinks of Force Lightning as a dark side power, so why do you continue to say it's not? Does it have to be? No, but in the Star Wars universe it is. That's it. What else is there to say?

L8r

 

My overall point is that we have only heretofore been witness to the negative and destructive nature of Force Lightning. Lucas has had five opportunities thus far to show a Jedi using this power for good rather than evil and it has yet to happen. Therefore, I think it is reasonable to assume that Force Lightning is a dark side power and anyone using the ability would be tapping into the dark side to do it. I have yet to see any convincing evidence to the contrary.

L8r

 

then the only characters in the entire saga who would have used it are bad guys. George Lucas would have had 6 different movies to show a Jedi using this ability. If he doesn't, then there must be reason. And what could the reason possibly be? Oh yeah, it's a dark side power!!!

You can also say that never in 6 movies does a Sith Lord use a blaster. Therefore a blaster must be a "light side" weapon.

Also, no Sith Lord is ever seen to be "welding" anything, so welding is a "good guy" job. In fact, we see Anakin weld when he's on the light side, but he stops when he goes over to the dark side! Thus it conclusively proves that the welding is only a Light Side ability.

 

It's interesting to note that both Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon employ the Force push while fighting battle droids. It seems that using the Force to attack machines is OK. Which means that using Force lightning against battle droids would be OK for a Jedi. So Force lightning is not a dark side power - it's just a power. It's an offensive power, though, which is why a Jedi can't use it against living things.
You must be a very powerful Force user to be able to use Force lightning, though, which is why no Jedi are using it in the arena. Perhaps Mace or someone else could use it, but I don't think he would until it's absolutely necessary.

A question: When Yoda first sent Dooku's lightning back at him instead of absorbing it, was he using the Force to attack Dooku, or was he merely defending himself? Or was he using the Force to attack in order to defend himself?
I think Yoda is about as Force-offensive as a Jedi can get there.

 

You can also say that never in 6 movies does a Sith Lord use a blaster. Therefore a blaster must be a "light side" weapon.

You're twisting my argument. My points are about the Force and now you're bringing in outside objects to make yours. Let's use a little common sense here.

What Yoda did was in defense and he only redirected the power shot at him by Dooku. If the power came from Yoda without some attack being made by Dooku first, then yes, I would say Yoda would be tapping into the dark side to use that power.

Force Push against droids . . . well, they aren't living creatures and they were brandishing weapons, so I'd view it as disabling an object than vanquishing a foe.

L8r

 

"What Yoda did was in defense and he only redirected the power shot at him by Dooku. If the power came from Yoda without some attack being made by Dooku first, then yes, I would say Yoda would be tapping into the dark side to use that power."


But what about intent? Did Yoda intend to hurt Dooku with the redirected lightning, or did he expect Dooku to easily deflect it? This is a crucial difference (though I suspect it's the latter.)

That being said, Yoda does touch on less-than-light-side Force usage in the films, and especially in the novels.

"Force Push against droids . . . well, they aren't living creatures and they were brandishing weapons, so I'd view it as disabling an object than vanquishing a foe."

Agreed. The droids are little more than walking guns.

 

Then you agree with me that Yoda could use Force lightning against droids if he wanted to.