Lightsaber Forms

Blackhole, eh? Couldn't decide whether it was a droid, prequel alien or non-SW thing-a-majing. One day I must look for a full holo of him.

 

DLBsMafiaGhostSock you are so right. I was very tired when I wrote that. I fumbled it, thanks for the correction.


-Ksh.

 

It's impossible. Vapaad is not credible, and I won't take a young human claiming to attack with EQUAL speed an enhanced human with magical agility seriously. It's outright laughable!

So far in the movies is there any indication that the film was speeded up to make any of the Jedi move with faster-than-human abilities. Lucas so far hasn?t relied on the typical martial art film need to speed up the film to make the fighting look better.

I don?t recall anywhere in Shatterpoint that Vaapad moved faster than humanly possible. If so, quote it. Similarly, I am more inclined to treat Steven Barnes and Matthew Stover as credible writers about lightsaber fighting because they are real martial artists who use their training and experience as models for their descriptive writing, not what they read in books.


GrandAdmiralJello: So as you'll kindly note, my entire point was that if a normal human like myself could do that, a supernatural being like a Jedi could.

Excellence: the two worlds are too different for you to equate yourself with their expertise and magically-enhanced skill. You can't convince me it's plausible, Jello

I am in complete agreement with GrandAdmiralJello. There is a lot about Jedi that non-martial artists presume is above and beyond the ken or skill of typical Earth humans, especially since most people?s interpretation of sword fighting is the attack-parry-counter attack found in theatrical sword fight choreography which is a convention. Non-fencers (of any culture or time) presume combat is a knowledge based enterprise, when in fact all combat is securely premised on the fact that tactical and strategic skill is based on interpretations of an opponent?s actions, whether they be real attacks that will land, or feints that look like they will land but were never intended to land. All combat stems from the instantaneous application of training based on a person?s ability to move his or her body according to one?s best judgment, which is often a function of experience. Some fencers are quite capable of knowing what their opponent will do. It is even possible to know what the opponent may do before the opponent knows he will do it, as is the case between the most experienced and the most novice of fencers. This is not magic; it?s a honed ability based on a person?s experience, interpretive skills, and knowledge of the fencing art.

Some of this is actually physiological, as well as perceptual. Adrenalin allows the brain to perceive movement in a faster way than under a non-stressful (i.e. non-combat) endocrinological state. Many describe this as seeing the fight move in ?slow motion? which allows them to move with a high degree of speed and fluidity. But it?s not just the perception of a thrust or slash moving forward. It?s the knowledge of what the intent of the hand or arm movement can do and how the defensive fencer can act to preempt or counter that move.

Another way of explaining the fluidity of movement in sword fighting is the Japanese concept of no-mind, which is offers the idea that a mind fixed on some movement or technique slows the swordsman. In its place is a state of neutral consciousness which is flexible and open the opponent's movement such that the swordsman?s skills can be instantaneously executed at a moment?s notice. This execution can be proactive or reactive.

GrandAdmiralJello?s claim to be able to execute six successive attacks with a competitive sabre is quite plausible. But it should be noted that only a single successful attack is needed. It should also be noted that consecutive strikes are also possible with two-handed weapons, but at half the rate if executed with alacrity. Multiple attacks are not necessary when a simpler attack can be made successfully, and two-handed blows will land with more cutting force. Successive attacks at such a speed are also very difficult to maintain for a typical human.

One must understand too that the concept of combat v. choreography is significant. The point of choreography is for the audience to be a

 

Ive watched enough fencing and similar sword fighting competitions on Tv to know that landing many hits in a few seconds is nothing really, if your properly trained for it. And clearly, these people dont havr the Force. So why cant Excellence understand that a jedi could easily land that many hits?
Oh yeah, cos hes wrong and cant admit it.

 

There's a full holo (literally! Ha!) of Blackhole--or rather, what he looked like when he appeared via holo--in the Rebellion Era sourcebook.

I picked that avatar because it most resembles the one I use off the site (a headshot of the Shade Captain from the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting), and I can't upload that one to this board (or if I can, I can't figure out how the hell to do it).

 

After sifting through plenty of info on Forms, I do have one question: How are they recognized in the films? ie, are there any moves/giveaways that Dooku is using Form II in AotC, Anakin is using Form V, etc? aside from the generalizations?

 

Form IV: Acrobatics galore, Qui Gon and Yoda use it.
Form III: Tons of twirling which is a bad habbit.
Form II: Standard Saber fencing with a few Kendo moves (the parries Dooku uses are by the book saber parries for the most part).
Form V: Bludgeon them to death. Vader's style which is best seen in ESB. A lot of basic Kendo a few one handed saber moves along with some tricky disarms, deceptions and a wicked prise de fer. My personal favorite 'form'.
Form VII: Sam Jackson faking it.

Plurimus, I've always loved your fencing analysis' of the Star Wars movies as I fenced in Kendo and Saber myself for two years. I can't wait to see your analysis of Episode III.

 

Excellence: As GrandAdmiralJello said, it is a fact that a normal, earthling, human being, well trained in an art, whether some kind of swordsmanship, or empty-handed fighting style, can throw 6 hits in 2-3 seconds. Trust me on this, I am a Martial Artist.

However, as Plurimus said, you only need one good hit to end the fight, and multiple hits then are unnecessary. But, if you do throw multiple hits, they go with less power than one.

In Martial arts, we train for not only the power of a punch/kick/whatever, but also the speed with which it is executed. You can win a fight by hitting harder, or faster, and it depends on your physiology, and your opponent's which will give you the upper hand.

When using weapons, it is basically the same thing, and in the case of sabers, or other types of swords like Japanese or chinese swords, friction is very limited due to the small surface area of the blade that is "cutting" the air when moved.

Now, if normal earth-bound beings can do this with nothing more but constant practice, which we can tell is part of what Jedi do, imagine what can be accompished in a universe where you can draw on certain energy field to enhance your speed/stamina/strength. Actually, I don't think you have to imagine too much; pay a visit to a Shaolin Temple, and you'll see.

Now, you argue that physical skills are unnecessary to win a fight, that you "saved" this gal with nothing more than words when your beefed-up companion was bested by 3 skinny guys. I agree with you that in some situations you can avoid the conflict, or ended, by using diplomatic skills - although in your case, judging by your previous posts on this thread, I would guess that what happenned is that you talked so much nonsense to them that their brains just melted trying to understand you. (Sorry, I know it is kind of an insult, but I couldn't resist ). Well, yes, it is possible in some instances, but trust me, if someone is intent in cutting you in half, or beat you to a pulp, any words you can lash at them will not keep them from slicing/punching you. And as you said, a well placed kick will ensure that you don't get swiftly up, though you can still talk; but a well place, not so hard punch in your throat will ensure that you don't breath anymore, and then how will you talk your way out of it?

As for your knowledge/experience in physical combat... Well, as many have said before me, it is your approach, stand point in this "discussion" that prove to us that you have no idea of what is possible or not for the human body. If you were a person who has trained in any physical activity related to this subject (fencing, boxing, Karate, etc), you would not be saying all this nonsense.

 

To those who like Excellence who think Jedi-like abilities are impossible in the 'real world' I refer you to the art of PK.

http://www.urbanfreeflow.com/urban_graffiti/urban_graffiti.htm

http://www.parkour.com/

A few videos at the bottom still work on the first link. The second has a bunch of flash videos.

Yes, those boys are totally insane, but damn if they can't move.

 

thanx, but this isnt (or supposed to be) about Jedi-like abilities. I thought Excellence was making a point about how the foil is different than a lightsaber, thus making the styles a moot point. A pont in whihc i disagreed with him on. Some Jeid-like abilities are possible, some arent. Gymnastics are, telekineses arent. Real good flexes are/mind control powers arent.

 

That depends enitirely on how much you know about the KGB psychic program.

I'm not saying that *every* rumor about what they did is true... but one must admit, there was some seriously messed up stuff going on.

 

Actually, LFL gets all their info on these Jedi techniques as a digest printout forwarded by the KGB office in Dzherzhinsky Square...the copies that masterskywalker *thinks* he's sending to the feds are actually still being picked at a double-blind drop cutout by a group of Urban Bulgarian Gypsies who do contract work for the Institute For Redactive Obfuscation in Brussels, a well-known front for the Mossad, who cut operational costs by selling Xerox?es to several black-ops agencies and organizations.

 

Now you're catching on.

 

Sorry to change the subject, but I read in Cestus Deception that Kit Fisto is a Form master.

I was under the impression that Form I was just the simple basics.

Isn't this like saying somebody is a kindergaten master?

 

Sith-Pirate, I would have to ask you to read the very first post:

Form I - A 'training form'. Quite basic, and something of a foundation for every other style, but deceptively simple--a true master would be able to trick an opponent who looks down on the style with relative ease.

 

Thank you for clearing that up.

 

Sith-Pirate,
I want to apologise. The way I phrased my response was a little rude.

 

No need. One of the first things I learned visiting this sight is that words often sound more harsh then intended. I've been around over 3 years now, so I try not to automatically assume somebody is putting me down.

But thank you for your concern.

 

Now that's more like it: something tangible for me to view. Unfortunatly, masterskywalker, none of those links are working for me. But thank you for taking the time to present something. That's what I wanted: visible support of a point, not screen-typed assurance halfway across the world.

But the good Mr Jello and I are done Aetherspriting, you crows. Go find other gibblet dinners.

 

You might need to install some Flash software Excellence, but it look up Google through web or image surf and you find some pretty dang amazing feats of gymnastic ability.

There are some old fencing videos I can dig up too (Kendo and saber) in which the combat goes faster than the eye can follow. I'll see if I can find them.

 

On the subject of Form I: I think of it as something like go (or Othello, or whatever you like to call it): exceedingly simple, yet the tactics involved can be incredibly complex.

 

I think an example of how deceptively simple Form I can be could be found in the Karate Kid movie...

Here we have a kid who has only practiced that very simple Kata, a begginner's level form used mainly to teach a student the basic moves for blocking, and focusing. However, since that is all that he's practiced for such a long time, he's kind of becomed a "master" of the style (and no, I am not comparing Dani Larusso to Kit Fisto, just giving a little example). He faces an opponent who is much more skilled, exxperienced and knowleadgebla than himself (remember, he has been winning tournaments and brawls left and right for quite a while), and since he has "mastered" those very simple moves, is able to "defeat" him in one quick move, because his oponnent is thinking at that time: "What the heck is this? A begginner's Kata? I will whoop his...! Ahh, the whole stadium is spinning!!! What am I doing in the floor??? How did I get here!?!?! Mommy!!!" Well, you get the idea.

 

Isn't this like saying somebody is a kindergaten master?

I have a name you know!

ps, post those fencing videos if you can, those sound like they'd be cool to watch.

 

I have a name you know!

Well now, you should be very proud. Keep that plaque above the fireplace for the grandkids when you have them.

 

Check and double check.