Linda Lovelace: Willing Participant or Victim?

TeeBee - surely you don't think men are that stupid do you? Men understand that women are doing what they do for money. Men PAY the money. I am sure that some women do enjoy it though, but money is the main motive.

Have you ever wathched HBO's G-string Diva's? Men ARE that stupid. These strippers are clearly the ones exploiting men. It really is kind of funny, the tables are turned, I am not saying ALL men, but womans bodies has an incredible power over men. Great cities have crumbled because of lust......that will never change.

See ladies....we DO have the power!!!!

Oh, and there are many many strippers who are extremely educated, masters degrees, you name it. The money is all in the boob.

 

Exactly, darthmomm. Just to make it clear, I'm speaking from experience, not speculation. And in five years of dancing, I never once met a girl who confessed that she danced because it 'turned her on' in any sexual way. The crowd was nothing more than a bunch of walking wallets to us. But you wouldn't believe some of the idiotic things men asked me and said to me!

My favorite was "So, what do really do for a living?", as though prancing around all day in a thong was just a hobby or something.

 

KaineDamo.....
You got a problem? I'm sensing some hostility. I'm not saying it's all her fault. I'm not saying it's her fault he beat her. It's obvious that that's his fault. But it's her fault that she didn't leave.

"Hell, why not go a step further and say that rape doesn't exist at all? After all, it's only something thats in our minds, and you don't buy that physchological crap."

Well because if you hold someone at gunpoint and make them have sex with you then it's rape. Rape exists and sure it wouldn't be all her fault if she wears a shirt skirt and flirts with the rapist, but why would you knowingly do that. I mean comeon, it is stupid. Sure he shouldn't be raping her and it's his fault and he should be punished, but this is reality and she should know better than to wear a very short skirt and just flirt with some guy who's standing on the corner.

"Surely you would leave the person you love after the first beating, right?"

If someone gives me bruises all over my legs I'm gone. Maybe MAYBE I'd consider trying therapy if they agreed to it right away, but if not then I'm definitely gone.

"I suppose those wifes that try to escape their abusive husbands after years of abuse only have themselves to blame"

How hard is it to file for divorce in this time? How do you try, really try and fail?

darthmomm....
"With time, you will get those psychological things."

I get them. It's not all that complex. Beaten children love their father and want to protect him from jail. Beaten wives hold on to the hopes that this was the last time because he said he was sorry and they'll get over it and live long and happy lives. What I mean is that I feel they need to get over it. Why do ou care about them so much when they care so little about you, that they'll beat the **** out of you.

You did bring up the point that it was back in the 70's when it was trougher for women to leave their husbands. I didn't think of that. I wasn't around back in the 70's so I'm not used to it. I'll grant you that, nice point.

"And that individual case brings light to the FACT that these terrible things DO happen in life"

Well, duh, this is real life after all.

 

Well I think the type of guy who would believe or think that TeeBee, are the type of guys who believe in alien abduction too.

Darthmom, that's exactly why I hate hearing things like pornos or strip clubs degrade women. They are being paid good money to do it and who forks out the money? Guys do. I think both sexes are taking advantage of each other.

And you are right, females have huge power over straight guys in the sexual sense. It's a biological neccesity.

 

KaineDamo.....
You got a problem? I'm sensing some hostility. I'm not saying it's all her fault. I'm not saying it's her fault he beat her. It's obvious that that's his fault. But it's her fault that she didn't leave.

Just to let you know, she was under the constant threat of violence not only against herself, but her parents also. She had seen how evil this man was, she saw that he was capable of pulling out those threats. She tried running away many times....These type of men are very charming and manipulative. But I will get to the profile of an abuser later......


Well because if you hold someone at gunpoint and make them have sex with you then it's rape. Rape exists and sure it wouldn't be all her fault if she wears a shirt skirt and flirts with the rapist, but why would you knowingly do that. I mean comeon, it is stupid. Sure he shouldn't be raping her and it's his fault and he should be punished, but this is reality and she should know better than to wear a very short skirt and just flirt with some guy who's standing on the corner.

So, if someone who is wearing a short skirt flirts with you.....than it is somewhat OK to rape her? Ok, she is flirting, so it is not so bad to force her to have sex with me.
That is nothing but justifying an anti-social behavior. There is no excuse, reason, or accepting ANY form of rape.


If someone gives me bruises all over my legs I'm gone. Maybe MAYBE I'd consider trying therapy if they agreed to it right away, but if not then I'm definitely gone.

Ah, you see this is where the circle of violence comes in. These men will apoligize, beg, pleade, appeal to the heart of the woman, promise to go to counseling. And for that moment, the woman has the power....so she takes them back.
Next, what happens is the "honeymoon" phase. Oh, things are wonderful. There will be a reafiemation of why they loved each other in the first place. Everything is great...thus reinforcing that this relationship CAN work.
Then:
Small fights start happening. It builds, and builds.....and then the abuse happens. And the whole circle starts again. And again. And when the woman decides to actually get out.....well that has the potential to be devastating.



"How hard is it to file for divorce in this time? How do you try, really try and fail?
Divorce is not the problem, it is getting away from the abuser. 2 days ago, a woman was shot to death in front of her kids because she was finally fed up with the abuse, and wanted her husband to leave.
That is very often the very thing that the woman fears in the first place.



I get them. It's not all that complex. Beaten children love their father and want to protect him from jail. Beaten wives hold on to the hopes that this was the last time because he said he was sorry and they'll get over it and live long and happy lives. What I mean is that I feel they need to get over it. Why do ou care about them so much when they care so little about you, that they'll beat the **** out of you.

Ah, I really wish that the human psyche was that simple. I would have saved 1000's of dollars in college courses, I would not need my degree in psych......



"And that individual case brings light to the FACT that these terrible things DO happen in life"

Well, duh, this is real life after all.

Yes, and there are so many shades of grey.....

 

Just out of curiosity, is her ex husband still alive?

 

Also, not all abusive people start off abusive. Some start off by showering the person with affection, etc and gain their trust. Then, they slowly alienate the person from their family and friends. As the person becomes more and more detached from the "outside" realm, the more they become attached and dependent upon the abuser. During this time the abuser may be using emotional manipulation/abuse to break the person's self esteem. Somewhere along the lines the abuser feels in control enough to switch from emotional abuse to physical abuse. At this point, the abusee is totally dependent on the abuser and thinks s/he CAN'T get out. Combined with the abuser's threats, the abusee feels s/he can't leave and if s/he leaves, s/he will will put other people in danger.

In other words, it's very easy to say "just get out", but the issue is much more complicated than that. For most women to leave an abusive situation they must have a secure relationship/place to move on to before they leave (ie police, clinic, etc).

 

The ex husband had a heart attack and died last year. Or was it this year? I can't remember, but i cheered when the documentary narrator announced it. The guy was the perfect definition of bastard.

 

Damn, I was hoping he'd either died a painful death or was still alive so there was still a chance of him recieving one. Oh well.

 

darthmomm....
"Just to let you know, she was under the constant threat of violence not only against herself, but her parents also. She had seen how evil this man was, she saw that he was capable of pulling out those threats. She tried running away many times....These type of men are very charming and manipulative. But I will get to the profile of an abuser later......"

Yes, I know the profile of an abuser, but after they start hitting you, you should catch on. I don't know all the facts of this particular case, and I don't know about the feasability of it because of the timeframe, but she could have gotten a restraining order.

"So, if someone who is wearing a short skirt flirts with you.....than it is somewhat OK to rape her? Ok, she is flirting, so it is not so bad to force her to have sex with me.
That is nothing but justifying an anti-social behavior. There is no excuse, reason, or accepting ANY form of rape."

No it's not ok at all. And I never said it was. I just said that it's still stupid to wear a short skirt and flirt with guys on the corner in some neighborhoods.

"Ah, you see this is where the circle of violence comes in. These men will apoligize, beg, pleade, appeal to the heart of the woman, promise to go to counseling. And for that moment, the woman has the power....so she takes them back."

Yes I know. They frequently make the wrong decision and don't leave.

"Small fights start happening. It builds, and builds.....and then the abuse happens. And the whole circle starts again. And again. And when the woman decides to actually get out.....well that has the potential to be devastating."

And this is where they should definitely leave. If it's going to happen again they need to realize it's over.

"Divorce is not the problem, it is getting away from the abuser. 2 days ago, a woman was shot to death in front of her kids because she was finally fed up with the abuse, and wanted her husband to leave.
That is very often the very thing that the woman fears in the first place."

The abusee needs to leave, not attempt to kick out the abuser, that could lead to problems. Preferably leave when the abuser is not home. The abusee needs to go to the police department, file divorce and ask for a restraining order. You can go to your parents house, a friend's place, or one of those homes for abused women.

"Ah, I really wish that the human psyche was that simple. I would have saved 1000's of dollars in college courses, I would not need my degree in psych......"

Oh, sure, of course it's not really that simple. That's just a general overview of how it normally works. It's basically the same thing that you said in your steps thing. I've never taken any psych classes so I won't profess to know as much about that as you do.

"Yes, and there are so many shades of grey....."

Well, duh, this is real life after all.

 

It's not nearly as simple as you make it sound Jarik. Plus, what the heck is wrong with a gal that wears a short skirt and flirts with a guy, say in a bar?? She's not asking to be raped. If you ask me, its a perfectly acceptable way to dress on a night out and you shouldn't expect to get raped for doing so. I would venture to say, sir, that you don't get out much.

 

I'd venture to say you don't get out much if you think it's fine to wear a short skirt, a skimpy top, and go into New York City and start flirting with a guy on the street. Not smart. Sure, in some places it wouldn't really be too much of a problem and of course it's not illegal and you can if you wanna (even if you're a guy). But you have to realize that there are dangerous areas out there where you just don't do that, you just don't.

 

I understand your point of view, but i disagree. I don't blame a goth when he gets beat up by a gang that doesn't like the way he dresses. I blame the gang for being idiots. Same with rapists.

 

KaineDamo...
"I understand your point of view, but i disagree. I don't blame a goth when he gets beat up by a gang that doesn't like the way he dresses. I blame the gang for being idiots. Same with rapists."

Sure I blame the gang too. But would you dress as a goth and walk through territory frequented by a gang known to hate goths? I don't think so. If you get killed it's their fault for doing it, but you didn't do much to prevent it, did you? You knew it would happen and you went there dressed like that anyway. That's the only point I'm trying to make.

Monstera-Deliciosa....
"Jarik, you're being ridiculous."

I don't think so. Would you dress as a member of the Ku Klux Clan and then walk into a mostly black section of LA or NY? Would you paint yourself entirely black (or not if you already are) and walk into a Ku Klux CLan meeting? Would you (as a woman) dress in a ridiculously short skirt and flirt with an unsavory character you selected on the streets of a bad neighborhood? People will kill you for looking at them too for too long. No reason to take the chance. Save the skirts for a safer environment...and don't look at anybody if you are in certain areas of the world.

 

Very few women are raped by someone they "pick up from the streets". You ARE being rediculous.

And... most goths are beaten up by completely random groups.

 

While I'll agree that Jarik's scenario is unlikely to actually pan out in real life, as I think rape for the most part has absolutely nothing to do with a woman's appearance, (except, perhaps in the case of 'date rape', but that's a whole different scenario) I must say I agree with his sentiment about dressing appropriately for the reaction you want.

First, I remember a highly publicized case back in the late 80's where a woman was out at a club wearing a lace-see-through skirt with a thong underneath. She was raped and they tried to pass it off as 'she asked for it because of the way she was dressed'. While I won't ever excuse rape on such a stupid reason as "I could see her butt", I also have to wonder what in the world she was thinking going into a sexually charged atmosphere willingly showing it off.

I also have know women, self included, who dressed provacatively, then complained that men were coming on to, staring/whistling/beeping/hooting, etc. at them when they went out in public or to a crowded nightclub.

Well... duh.

 

Those kinds of men are idiots too!

 

Well, yeah...they're rude. But it's also perfectly normal for a man to notice an attractive woman dressed provacatively. The thing I learned over the years is that I cannot control how men will react to me dressing like that. There will always be rude clods. But I can control what I wear, and thus cut down the reaction somewhat by not dressing in such a way as to overtly entice clods to be rude.

 

I did not know that Linda Lovelace was standing on a New York street corner randomly flirting.......

Oh, well, that is fine then....she did deserve the bruises..the beatings.the forceable sex she was made to have with a dog.....

I did not know that it was dangerous to wear a short skirt in front of a dog. I will remember that the next time I see a Toy Poodle..I may be asking to be raped by the dog if I wear a low cut shirt....

//end sarcasm//

 

I still think she fabricated much of her abuse claims.

 

darthmomm...
Sarcasm is quite unnecessary. You know very well that I never said Linda Lovelace was flirting on a street corner. And I have already admitted that I don't know anything about that case.

KaineDamo...
"Very few women are raped by someone they "pick up from the streets". You ARE being rediculous."

If you think so. I don't think I'm being ridiculous, but w/e. It may be unlikely, but there's no reason to chance it by dressing like that everyday. And for the last time I am in no way excusing the men who commit rapes.


Also on a completely unrelated note and please don't flame me for this, but:
I know it's found to be annoying and is often unwelcome and I try to be perceptive and compassionate (and truth is I'm a little shy about this anyway), but if guys don't whistle, stare, beep at, or approach (a lot of times with a stupid, corny line that is at times found to be offensive) than the human race might not reproduce all that much. I don't know how many times most guys are approached by girls, but I'm not all that much. I can count one time. One girl had a crush on me for like a year and I had no idea. She didn't do anything directly, but finally one of her friends told me and so then we started hanging out and well the rest of it's my business. But anyway, I don't wanna talk about this anymore, just had to say that. Have a good night, everybody.

 

Well, not many women fall for the "corny offensive line" or hooting and whistling approaches. I usually find that walking up to a girl in a bar and saying "hey, whats your name? Can i get you a drink?" is the best approach.

 

I fail to see where scaring the living daylights out of me by honking the horn or hollering "Ooowwww!" as you drive past me while I'm walking down the street minding my own business is going to help the human race reproduce.

But hey, maybe it works for some guys and I'm just easily annoyed.

 

"Well, not many women fall for the "corny offensive line" or hooting and whistling approaches. I usually find that walking up to a girl in a bar and saying "hey, whats your name? Can i get you a drink?" is the best approach."

Very true.

"But hey, maybe it works for some guys and I'm just easily annoyed."

yea it would work for certain guys, but I think it's more like it works for certain girls.