Lord of the Rings Impact upon the EU....

What do ya mean its not mythology? I know he was a real king but its still mythology

 

WTH are you talking about? Is there even a line between Mythology and Fantasy? The two are very closely related.

Beowulf, moreover, didn't deal with gods or pantheons. It was about a man with super-human abilities fighting monsters. There were a lot of concepts that the Forgotten Realms adopted, as can be found in Salvatore's The Crystal Shard.

It's Fantasy.

EDIT:

For literal clarification:

Mythology: "1: myths collectively; the body of stories associated with a culture or institution or person 2: the study of myths"

Fantasy: "Fiction characterized by highly fanciful or supernatural elements."

Source: Dictionary.com

 

I would say there is be a line...would u call Star Wars Mythology? Myth is based on Fact...I mean how would you define fantasy Valyn?

 

Vayln i'm interested, would u describe Beowulf as a legend then? Or just plain fantasy? I'd love to get some other input/perspective here..this is just two opinions after all.

 

I'm comfortable with the definition I provided in my last post.

How is myth based on fact? Did the Greeks SEE Zeus? Ares? Did they SEE Apollo riding his chariot over the sun?



Myth: "A popular belief or story that has become associated with a person, institution, or occurrence, especially one considered to illustrate a cultural ideal
A traditional, typically ancient story dealing with supernatural beings, ancestors, or heroes that serves as a fundamental type in the worldview of a people, as by explaining aspects of the natural world or delineating the psychology, customs, or ideals of society."

(From Dictionary.com)


Hell, the story of Jesus Christ, Noah, Moses, etc could all be considered myths, or even fantasy.


EDIT:

I percieve Beowulf as being a Fantasy story.

 

No the Greeks did not see Zeus (well they might have done, u never know ) But it has been theorised that the stories were real stories and then needing something to believe in the Gods were added by fanciful writers. <- This is where my "based on fact" comes from

The bible...touchy subject to those who believe in it...but yes it could all be pure fantasy. I mean people beleive in Myths/legend/fantasy and to them it makes it Fact. Those New Zealanders who are trying to make the force an official religion..Some of them may believe SW is fact..maybe...probs not.

Perhaps we'd better agree to disagree and leave it before it gets a little too deep...

 

Wait...what are we disagreeing about again?

 

Lord of the Rings......a great thing to talk about, some of my favorite books.....

why are we talking about the Bible now?

 

"None shall pass" similar to Gandalf and the Balrog?

 

Sauron was not a Numenorean.

Sauron is in fact a demi-god, sort of. The real 'Gods' figures are the Valar (Morgoth was once one of these) and the other spirits who are way less powerful are their servants, the Maiar (sp). Basically, Morgoth was Sauron's boss for a long, long time. Only thing was, that whenever Morgoth was defeated, Sauron would manage to nick off somewhere (wonder why ).

After the 1st Age (the events of the Hobbit and LOTR take place in the 3rd), Morgoth was kicked out for good and Sauron found himself as the head honcho of evil. He tried to take out the Elves, first by a bit of spy-work where he disguised himself and befriended a group of them and taught them how to make the Rings of Power so he could control them through his own Ring.

When that didn't work, he used force and slaughtered the group he befriended (he also stuck their leader's head on a stick, nasty stuff) and sent his arnies to wipe out the rest. Elrond was the general of the army sent to help the slaughtered group, but Sauron started winning, so he retreated and set up Rivendell as a kind of fort. At this point the Elves' King called on the Numenoreans to assist, and they utterly crushed Sauron's armies and took him alive back to Numenor (an island country).

The Numenoreans had been the Elves' human allies in the 1st Age against Morgoth and had been granted long-life and heaps of knowledge on the condition that they never tried to come to the Gods homeland (which is the other continent). Their society was split over whether to keep up the friendship with the Elves and teach less advanced humans how to be more like them, or to hate the Elves (because Elves are immortal) and make an empire out of less advanced humans. The Elf-haters were in power, and Sauron managed to use mind-control on the King, eventually becoming his most trusted advisor. Sauron started persecuting the Elf-friends and encouraged the King to launch an assault on the Gods. When they sent a fleet, the Gods responded with a tidal wave that wiped them out and killed Sauron. Only the Elf-friends escaped (that's Isildur and Aragorn's faction) and the Elf-haters who were stationed in Middle-earth. Sauron now could only live via the Ring, because his body was destroyed, which is why when when Isildur cuts off his finger, Sauron dies instantly.

By the time of LOTR, Sauron has managed to continue living in the form of a giant eye, and his survival depends on the Ring's continued existence.

Sorry about that, longer than i thought it would be

 

DaJames ur probs right (I havn't read tales for a long time). I was under the impression that sauron was of Numenor but became bad and advised the King (which one I don't know) to send the fleet to attack tha Valor.

And Valyn I've lost the plot a bit, what were we discussing? Myths, Legends, Fantasy, The bible, Greeks...LotR

 

I'm 99.99 % certain. I've learned that saying i'm 100% always gets me in trouble

 

DaJames I am completely wrong and the king he bewitched was Ar-Pharazon...What is Sauron then, was he Human at one point? I mean is Sauron comparable to the witch king but just more powerfull? Or is he just a kind of fallen Angel-thing?

 

Pharazon, that's the name (i was having trouble remembering )

Nope, never human/elf/dwarf/hobbit/Ent He is very much a Fallen Angel

 

DaJames, where did you learn all of this from?

 

Quite simple, actually. DaJames is my apprentice.

 

Yes, my horrible secret is out

However, as you all know Valyn, i have had to get my information from other sources

 

Myth storys always have the basicly the same characters.

So you cant go comparing charaters by there Charater but buy there action.

Obi-won and Gandalf are close but are very diffrent at the same time. Gandalf was Kinda like the watcher, keeping the heros safe. He kinda was outside the story sometimes helping out with his wisdom. He was never thrown into the plot to deeply. And Obi-won was a great impact to the story. And Toilken ment for this. LORD was a story about how Man stood on thier feet and fought off evil. The elves where leaving meddle earth. "It is now Man's Time"

And Frodo to Luke, they are close, Clue less while in the crusade. Thats a method of telling a story. The storys are told through them.
One ask a question- "why is..." "Oh that well..."
Frodo's and Luke's actions in the story are very diffrent.

Saurmon - "I am your father"

Frod - "noooooo"

So dont cambare charaters for who they are but what they do.

Like with Ganner with that none shall pass bull [edited]. When did STAR WARS guys started saying Shall, before you know they be saying stuff like, Thee, thith, hither. Those are old ways of speaking, from england. Toilken know a lot of stuff like that. So when he siad Shall, he [edited] up the hole non connection with earth thing, the word shall came from england early 100's

HEY THEY SPEACK ENGLISH TO. Toilken knew his [edited] man. I guess most Authers dont think about stuff like that when writing none earth stuff.

YJ edit: That word isn't allowed here.
YJ edit 2: Missed a couple the first time.

 

Actually, i think SW broke its cover when it used French word "rendezvous" in ESB

And on Gandalf, he was a fairly big part of the story for certain segments (as shall be seen in The Two Towers and Return of the King ). And you are correct, his role is that of a guide who inspires, sometimes leads and physically defends his more natural flesh-and-blood companions.
In the OT, Obi-wan really does take up this role by guiding Luke (and Han a bit), inspiring Luke to greater things, took control on the Death Star and Tattooine and physically defended the gang from Vader as well as Luke from Ponda Baba.
Obi-wan also has a mortal body, with unnatural abilities.

However in the PT, Obi-wan hasn't taken up this role. Yet

Just to clear things up, Gandalf isn't an Elf. In fact, he used to be a Maia (Angel, demi-god, whatever) before he volunteered along with 4 others to be sent to Middle-earth to safe-guard the 'lower beings' from Sauron and inspire them to independence. And in case of the last resort, to use their powers to assist the cause. He and the others were given human bodies, though they have notable differences (such as immortality ). The other Wizards are Saruman, Radagast and i forget the names of the other 2, but they got distracted in the Eastern part of the world and basically failed their mission.

Rypcord - Most of this i got from the Silmarillion, though the book with the best Wizard stuff is Unfinished Tales

 

Oh my...I have for years thought SW and the Pyrdain Chronicles had a lot more in common than SW and LOTR. (Like they both start with the young boy who longs for adventure taking off after a runaway short squat thing.)


The Edda, Gilgamesh, Götterdämmerung, etc are also precursors of *modern* fantasy. There are also 2 books from the 19th Century, the Well at the Worlds End that have also been linked to LOTR. It's been a long time since I've read them.


The Illiad and Odyssey were legends based on real events that happened 500 years or more years before Homer. Homer is given credit, because it was his (or her) version that was written down.

 

Oh my...I have for years thought SW and the Pyrdain Chronicles had a lot more in common than SW and LOTR. (Like they both start with the young boy who longs for adventure taking off after a runaway short squat thing.)

There's actually more than that...

But I'm glad someone else here knows what I'm talking about!

 

Oh my...I have for years thought SW and the Pyrdain Chronicles had a lot more in common than SW and LOTR. (Like they both start with the young boy who longs for adventure taking off after a runaway short squat thing.)

Huh, I never considered them related for some reason. But then, I've never really thought of SW in terms of anything else, fantasy (and I am going to take the stand that Tolkien was the father of modern fantasy), mythology or legends. Yes, I believe all modern fantasy/scifi has probably been influenced to some extent by Tolkien or the greek/norse myths (take Robert Jordan for example), but it's still very much it's own story.

But I personally don't really see much connection with LotR and SW. Yes, the characters are similar but then again, I always associated the whole storyline with pretty much your basic fantasy/scifi story and your archetypical characters. Luke- the learner, padawan, hero- wears white at first for innocence then black as he becomes more knowledgeable then the flap of white showing as he begins to overcome the darknes; Obi-wan & Yoda- the mentors- the light colored robes symbolizing there status as having beaten back the darkness and being on the side of the light yet still knowledgable about the dark; Vader- the nemesis- wears black as a symbol of his darkness etc. etc. etc.

Although... if based on the Prydain chronicles... who gets to be Gwydion Or High King Math?