(loser) Anakin vs. Anakin(strongest jedi ever)

This whole point of contention shouldn't even be, Obi-Wan is the GOOD guy in the films that battles evil and does the right thing, isn't he supposed to be cheered and admired? Obi-Wan is the first Jedi we were introduced to in the saga years ago and is the model for every Jedi that came after. He never faltered, he never doubted, he never questioned good or doing right. When Dooku propositioned him with evil in AOTC he laughed at it. Isn't that supposed to be admired and respected? How can someone like Star Wars and NOT think Obi-Wan Kenobi is not the end all be all of coolness? Look at the stuff he has gone through and survived.

But as others have pointed out, this has nothing to do with Obi-Wan being less powerful than Dooku or Anakin. It means he's the good guy. Good guys win by luck/karma/whatever a LOT of times in the movies. He's not all powerful, just like Anakin isn't. The point of this thread, yet again...is Anakin would have been more effective against Obi-Wan and more than likely won had he had the focus he had when dueling Dooku, when he was on top of his game, focused and together.

 

at the same time, i would argue that such focus is possible only through the light, not the dark side.

the dooku deul was a tease of what have been. once he turned from that path, such prowess would not be realized

 

Exactly. But HAD he not turned to the dark (which made him emotional and crazy during THE duel), he probably would have won. That's what the first post was talking about. It's not could he have won if he was still the emotionally messed up Anakin that Obi-Wan fought, but the Anakin that was still somewhat focused in dueling Dooku.

 

what im saying is that the his deul against Dooku, he was good and not using the dark side so:

essentially-the only way he could beat obi-wan (in ROTS) is if he stays good, but if he stays good, he would never fight obi-wan

im saying the question is moot, imo

 

maynard, i respectfully disagree. that is a cop out, and you know it. dooku goads anakin, saying "you have hate, you have anger, but oyu don't lose them." as he says this anakin begins the onslaught. how does support any bview except one of anakin using those emotions, ANGER and HATE. anakin can only attain this level of focus on the light side of the force? i disagree. anakin against any other person besides obi wan, and anakin would have won. obi wan at this point in time, is the only person capable of taking on anakin and having the chance to be the victor, not because of obi wan's power, but because of his relationship with anakin. he knows him better than anyone, he is the perfect for handling anakin.

anakin, when composed would be too much for obi wan to handle, i believe this much is evident in the films.

 

I refer to AOTC, when Obi-wan talks to Jocosta Nu and it's mentioned that Dooku was the best swordsman alive. In AOTC, I believe Obi-wan was a level seven and Dooku was an eight. They were even in power, but Dooku outfought and outmanuvered him that day.

 

fair enough. i'll backtrack a little so you see where im coming from

at the very beginning of this thread, i said how i percieve the scene. the way i see it, this scene is a contrast: the duel itself shows the power anakin can wield against the sith as a "good guy" ie, using his focus and relying on the force. the beheading is seperate, showing the evil he can become by using his hate for revenge.

so, in ROTS only, not in the future, a dark side anakin going up against obi-wan will face the same fate every time, because of the mental side. the anakin that beat dooku would beat obi-wan, but im saying te fight would never happen because "that Anakin" would still be good and wouldnt fight obi-wan. thats all.

now, i could very well be wrong. in beating dooku, anakin may be tapping into dark side emotions for power. Dooku says, "you have hate and anger, but you do not use them." you could say that anakin then uses the feelings dooku mentions to beat him, or, as i say, he defies Dooku by him without them anyway.

so our argument comes from what state we percieve anakin in when he beats dooku

agree?

 

A Sith Lord uses anger and hate, but they do not use him. Remember what Obi-wan said to Luke. The Force controls you, but you can also control it. Anakin, on the other hand, is controled by the Force. But not in the right way. It is fed off of his untamed emotions. With as high a Midichlorian count as he has, Anakin's like a nuculear (sp) blast furnace. White hot. Brimming with fire. He's so "high" with power that he cannot think straight. When he fought Dooku, he had only released a fraction of the power. He still had restraint over himself. Hence hesitating to kill Dooku and questioning himself afterwards. That little birdie on his shoulder is still there. It's dead on Mustafar. All he hears is the red devil telling him he's invincible. He's stronger. Faster. More intense than Obi-wan. He is a demigod.

 

i see where you are coming from maynard......and i agree. i too believe that anakin legitimately trained for and beat dooku the second time using lightside powers alone. this view is backed up in references from kenobi to skywalker regarding anakin's power levels during the time of RotS. a jedi can sense another's power.....kinda like they do in dragonball actually, and if kenobi...who is a level 8 lightsaber duelist by RotS can sense that anakin is far beyond his realm of powers......then its safe to say that anakin should be able to best count dooku in a lightsaber only affair. i also tend to believe that the superior skill anakin showed in the dooku duel.....was a teaser in the sense that anakin will never fight with that much power and focus combined ever again in the saga. and that means that kenobi by way of anakin's mental state....faces a much weaker anakin IMO. the beheading after the duel......was a darkside temptation for revenge realized.....and a more direct start towards anakin's fall from the light than the tuskan slaughter.

 

Actually, Dooku was instructed by Palpatine to take out Obi-Wan immediately and then go all out against Anakin. Being a Sith Lord, he was overconfident, naturally, which led to Anakin's swift and impressive victory.

 

I think the emotional conflict was greater in the mustafar duel than in the Dooku deal. The thoughts going b/w Anakin's head during the obi duel is padme betrayed and Obi-wan has betrayed me too. He was distracted so he couldn't focus or harness is power to defeat Obi-Wan. In the Dooku duel Anakin was focused his connection to the force was unparrelled because not even yoda could defeat dooku that quickly. So what Yoda said in ESB was totally correct.

 

Conclusion: When Anakin releases his anger to a certain amount, he can be the greatest Sith/Jedi that ever, but if he goes overboard, he's all over the place.

 

Remember too, that when Anakin fought Obi-Wan, he wasn't trying to protect anyone or save anyone. He just wanted to kill. He was consumed by hatred. On the other hand, when he fought Dooku, he was protecting Obi-Wan and trying to save Palpatine. Very different motivations.

 

That's very true yoshifett.

 

My how this thread has grown!

Anyway what Yoshifett just posted is sort of what I said like on the first page of this thread.

That Anakin found power within to save Obi-Wan. But when his motivations were purley evil and to kill Obi-Wan he just can not do it. An interesting thought regarding Anakin that he can not "defeat" his former master, though he can save him. Thoughts? Speculation? Ridicule? Hopefully not. j/k.

*~*Ti*~*

 

WOW!! i loved that post, great ponts!

i could see it that way, except for the small little detail, that is anakin BEHEADING dooku. AFTER using his ANGER and HATE to DEFEAT dooku, anakin then chooses to continue giving into his anger and hate beheading the count. i see this as anakin continuing the slide down the darkside. i don't see any idication in this scene that anakin wasn't using, or at least tapping the darkside. i believe that the counts words stirred somehting in anakin, they stung a little. palpatine was always telling him how useful emotions were, and how they were natural, and then dooku goes off and says the same thing, how he can sense that anakin has these powerful emotions but doesn't use them. i think all signs point to the fact that anakin was dipping into the darkside.

i just don't see it the same way. i don't think the darkside is as limited as you describe it. anakin only being able to focus when on the lightside? i just don't see how this is supported by the films, or EU for that matter. maul, dooku and sidious were all able to focus, using the darkside, why can't anakin? against dooku he was able to focus, and he did so by IMO tapping the darkside.

don't think i am stuck in my ways, if presented with a logical explaination i will always try to keep an open mind, so don't think your words are wasted on me.

 

Remember too, that when Anakin fought Obi-Wan, he wasn't trying to protect anyone or save anyone. He just wanted to kill. He was consumed by hatred. On the other hand, when he fought Dooku, he was protecting Obi-Wan and trying to save Palpatine. Very different motivations.


And he wanted revenge, which Palpatine so cleverly pointed out, "He cut off your arm, and you wanted revenge."

 

I totally agree. And as someone brilliantly pointed out, I think that the portion of the fight in which he defeats Dooku is not really the portion in which he embraces the darkside. He doesn't kill Dooku until Palpatine STRONGLY encourages it.

 

^^^^^^^

Of course...It's all Palpatine's doing

 

Well, you do seem to love lil' Ani

 

Well, you do seem to love lil' Ani

How did that come up?

 

Hmm, this is a good point Master_Ti...but thinking about it, it seems more like Obi-Wan can't bring himself to kill Anakin. I don't think he loses the duel to Obi-Wan because his intentions are purely evil (not completely anyway). I think it has more to do with his out of control emotions (he's just slaughter many Jedi, Children, the separists, and choked his wife) and he's a Sith. He falls prey to their classic weakness: overconfidence.

 

im not sure i have a great answer. its true that Dooku and Sidious remained composed. one reason could be that Dooku and Maul as well have learned to better control their emotions, while anakin is still very raw.

i say that because one can be focused, yet foolhardy (as Anakin was against Obi-Wan). im just throwing stuff out there.

your right, beating someone soundly and effieciently doesnt mean it was from the light side

my most solid defense is that the scene contrasts two Anakins as a symbol of his flip-flopping state of mind.

 

while anakin is still very raw.

exactly the way i see it. anakin has not yet learned to reign his emotions in, he is still warped by his new found power. this does not mean that he would be un able to control his anger and focus, it just means that he hadn't yet. this is exactly what this thread is about, not that anakin couldn't focus but that he was not yet able to focus due the circumstances that had transpired, had he been as focused as he was against dooku, he would have been the victor.

i don't see the dooku duel as anakin flip flopping around, let me clarify. i see the beginning of the duel as the "lightside " anakin. as soon as dooku pushes anakin's buttons we see "darkside" anakin, just for a minute. after anakin beheads the count in his fit of anger, hate, and revenge, anakin then goes back to being the lightside anakin, but with the burden of killing dooku in cold blood on his conscience. (not to mention a great many things)

this is just my opinion, i could be wrong, but i feel that the films show this much.

 

Rayden: "Finally, one of you is understanding."