Lit Books LOTF - First Time Read Thread - No spoilers post-Invincible

HE WILL CRAWL THROUGH HIS CLOAK.

 

jw, now since I put my thoughts on Betrayal...what did everyone like or dislike about the book? let me know what you agree with or disagree with from my posts....

EDIT: I have a loved one in the hospital so it might take me a while to read and post anything on Bloodlines but I'll be keeping up with the comments for sure so that's why I'd like to hear more on Betrayal for now...

 

The real change in Jacen came during his five year sojourn. That's where his empathy, morals and self-restraint withered away. The more knowledge and power he accumulated the more egotistic he became until he was absolutely certain that he knew what was best for the Galaxy. He would bring peace because he believed no one else to be capable of it. When Lumiya came to him offering the secrets of the Sith, he took it.

Jacen Solo was always thirsty for knowledge. He always believed he knew better than those around him. All that changed between Vector Prime and Betrayal was that Jacen grew exponentially more powerful and experienced the trauma of war. That's why he was so determined to bring an absolute peace.

It would've been better for the Galaxy if Jacen Solo had stayed on Zonama Sekot after the end of the Vong War.

 

I wouldn't say the Jacen depicted at the end of TUF thought he knew better than everyone.

In fact, his development through the series was that his sense of being any sort of authority diminished. He gives a speech to Jaina about this.

But that's the problem with Legends continuity. These authors cherry pick characterization so Vector Prime or Jedi Eclipse Jacen becomes Denning's starting point for JINO, completely disregarding the character development that followed.

And we remember what happened at Centerpoint with Anakin, and forget or don't pay attention to Jacen's subsequent development, so we buy it.

 

This was especially funny for Denning given he at least stated that he loved YJK. And of course, probably his biggest continuation of YJK was to kill off a big chunk of its cast.

 

Well, to be fair, that's his biggest continuation for most everything.

 

Yeah, if Denning had written all of FOTJ instead of just 1/3 of it, I feel like nobody would've survived. He's basically the George RR Martin of Star Wars Legends books.

 

Denning certainly aims for Martin's violence, sexual innuendo, and cynicism to be sure.

I mean he has the Big Three getting grievously wounded or injured-I suspect if given the chance and go ahead Denning would happily kill off Luke or Han but because the writers didn't have Lucas permission to do that(was he ever going to give them permission?) he settled for just injuring the characters.

From what I understand Denning apparently has a very persuasive personality and in the writing room managed to get his way most of the time-given DNT-LOTF-FOTJ-C was like 45% his he obviously got his way in terms of plots and characters more often than not.

If only there had been another writer in that period to have counterbalanced him.

And Denning isn't a bad writer-he is very good at detailed combat depictions and big intricate books like SBS I just am not a fan of the direction he took the story.

 

Yeah, he had Han lose an eye in Crucible, so...

He's pretty graphic with his violence but some of the stuff he describes characters surviving is just...unrealistic. More unrealistic than it should be, anyway. Saba's brain matter hanging out is by far the most notable, but I'd wager that if you went and read any of his FOTJ books, you'd find stuff just as unrealistic.

 

Spoiler

Bazl Warv or whatever his name was, was pretty banged up before he died.

Crucible. Han got so banged up in that novel. The Shuttle crash, the fight during the first sabacc game and then mentally tortured in the second sabacc game. Unrealistic in the extreme

 

I'm going to avoid that spoiler tag, after a previous reminded me of, well, something I've blocked out in my memory. Anyway, going back to Betrayal, the conflict kind of rang hollow from the start. The GA isn't perfect, but Thracken with a working Centerpoint is definitely a bad thing. Although the Jedi's actions were probably too far too. A lot of LotF (and FotJ) is ripping off prequel elements (Jacen's fall for instance), but done even worse than during the prequel era.

Even if the idea of Jedi as special forces commandos is really just a continuation of their role in the later stages of NJO. I wish they could have gotten closer to the prequel era negotiator/government representative rather than just action hero/heroine (of course they didn't bother to copy that from the prequel era). Although tying themselves too closely to the government isn't good either, but again, the Corellians were probably more in the wrong. Especially after their more reasonable leader was assassinated (and of course Jacen just didn't bother to follow up on those assassins and that delusional suicide bomber once Vergere was mentioned, not like he cared about the little people much by then).

Denning is a... passionate writer. He obviously cares about Star Wars, I just... really disagree with his interpretation of Star Wars. I wish Tatooine Ghost had been his last Star Wars book honestly, but that was not to be. I only tolerate Star By Star because its has all the major elements of the NJO saga (hopelessness, defeats, pain, deaths, etc.), and other authors handled the heroes' counterattack. Although I'd say Denning still isn't the worse author of the post-NJO era, but its a close thing, unfortunately.

 

Not far into Bloodlines but a few observations....
1) Boba Fett storyline isn't bad, but I hope it goes somewhere that interacts with the bigger story, or else why is it even in this book?
2) Luke is definitely having bad vibes over Jacen, even wants to remove him as Ben's mentor yet does nothing about it....talk about a bad parent!!! not to mention questionable judgment as the Grand Master
3) also on Boba, just how the heck does he have a daughter? he's a clone!!! can they father children???
4) and it indicates his daughter took his armor and ship h/e the book also describes Boba as having his unique armor and flying Slave I.....?????

 

Boba Fett is an unaltered clone.

 

but he is still a clone right? so I don't really see how he could father children? I wouldn't think clones can do that even if unaltered, all that meant was he didn't have the quick aging part giving to him

 

Clones are just identical twins.

 

if that's the case never knew that in SW, always figured they were like a synthetic human/robot hybrid (so not real people in a lot of aspects such as ability to procreate)

 

No, that's not what a clone is. Clones are just as human as you or me.

 

I always felt the Second Galactic Civil War always was the most fertile in terms of story potential. You have the core centralizing power and authority, worlds like Corellia that were spared the devastation of the Vong War and want to keep their independence and clout, other worlds rebelling against Coruscanf's grip on galactic affairs and the Hutts joining the confederation, the empire making power plays, etc...

It's a shame because these aspects weren't as developed as well as they could have been. You can have the confederation with Thrackan, Durr Gejjen, etc.. having their factions, Turr Phennir leading it and the GA with political wrangling along with the whole coup(which was an interesting idea itself).

Skilled writers and editors could have tied these plotlines into the Sky-Solo drama and Jacen's downfall(or which ever SkySolo went dark).

LOTF had a lot of story potential, world building potential, consequences of the Vong War potential, but it was wasted.

 

Perhaps someone could tell me if there's justification for Han siding with his cousin and Corellia after his negative run in with his cousin in the original Corellia trilogy as well as Thrackan's stint with the Peace Brigade in the NJO, when Han didn't side with Corellia without all that baggage in the original Corellia trilogy.

I don't remember much. Or how Thrackan still had political capital from Centerpoint after collaborating with the Yuuzhan Vong.

 

*nods* Wasted potential is a key point to emphasize, here. There were a lot of good ideas, but pitifully few good executions.

Part of the problem is that the Jacen and Tenel Ka dynamic is not - and never should've been treated as - Anakin and Padme.' Jacen and his grandfather were broken in completely different ways; warped by expectations they never asked for, but Anakin's motivation for his fall was at least somewhat comprehensible (while remaining reprehensible).

Jacen never had a chance to be anything but a Jedi (getting possessed by your uncle at age 3 to fight Sith battle hydras is NOT a positive experience, regardless of how dire Luke's situation was at the time ). Even during YJK, though, Jacen at least had some hope of ending up sane - but he should've been a Jedi zoologist or diplomat or something.

Instead, he long had issues relating to anyone without the Force (Han, especially during the Corellian Trilogy but also in Conquest) or when he couldn't rely on the Force. Traitor at least showed Jacen that there could be life beyond the Force ... but TUF dragged him into Force addiction, of a sort.

It's less egotism that condemns Jacen by the time of LOTF, than it is fanaticism. Wedge puts his finger on the problem when he and Jacen talk in Exile; Jacen can't laugh at himself anymore, because he's walling off any possibility that there's another way out of the trap he's wandered into.

But hey - this is a man who's been set up by his brother's death, as well as peer pressure, that, as a SkySolo, he's got to fit a mold and be right all the time.

It never occurs to Jacen that trusting an experienced Imperial espionage agent in a Sith asteroid nexus for illusions might be INCREDIBLY STUPID.

As for TK, her agency in LOTF was ... artificially curtailed, shall we say.

Spoiler

This is a woman who routinely outfought and outfoxed her enemies when she was still a teenager - with one arm. Handwaving away her bad-shebs competency because of Allana is pitiably bad writing, made more stupid by her failure to go to H/L for help. (Nobody IU with half a brain should've even THOUGHT that Han and Leia Solo would threaten a child, much less over political shavit. )

 

Jacen wasn't possessed by Luke. He imitated his actions.

 

Exactly this!!! Especially since Nelani was also there offering the obvious Jedi view as a counter argument and NOT falling for Lumiya.

 

LotF (and FotJ) was completely built on those moments of stupidity. Well, not so much moments as months long idiocy. If most of the main characters hadn't been so stupid all the time, the series would have been two books rather than nine, and that means less money for Del Rey. As you've noticed, the Boba Fett plotline doesn't really go anywhere fast. Get used to that, its only going to get worse. Although Boba's history was always messy due to all the retcons (and different authors with different characterizations).

Just like how NJO had lots of people trusting the Vong over the Jedi (partially due to desperation, but still, really stupid), LotF has it even worse. I still feel a little tiny bit sorry for Anakin Skywalker (he deserved it, but that was Palpatine). Jacen, I don't feel sorry for at all after how stupid he was (and Lumiya is definitely nowhere near Palpatine's level).

There's not really much excuse for Thracken again, aside from people's short memory and him feeding on Corellia's defiant nature. Other sources (like the Essential Guide to Warfare) tried to explain the war in better detail, but there's only so much they can do with such a shoddy foundation. There's not really any solid reason for Han siding with Corellia rather than just "plot says so". They try to justify as Han being bitter after the NJO war, but it doesn't fit (especially after TUF), of course.

 

To be fair, I don't blame Tenel for doing what she did above Kashyyyk. As someone who once liked the character of Jacen Solo, I completely endorse what she did. By that point there wasn't anything left of Jacen to save. Moreover, unlike his grandfather, Jacen didn't want to be saved. He believed he was doing the right thing up to the moment he died.

I have much less sympathy for Jacen than Anakin. All Jacen has to do in Betrayal is turn around, leave the Home and comm his uncle.

"Hey Uncle Luke, I ran into a lady who calls herself Lumiya on a Dark Side asteroid out near Bimmiel. I think you should come take a look. Maybe bring the rest of the Jedi Council with you."

Twelve Jedi Masters arrive at MZX32905 and promptly arrest or kill Lumiya. The puppetmaster behind the conflict is removed and the marionettes go slack. Conflict solved.

 

Jacen was always attracted to the mystical though and he wasn't the only one who ha issues relating to non force sensitives.

Also I wouldn't say his experience in TUF was addiction-far more spiritual fulfillment and realization.