Discussion Luke Skywalker as the Master Jedi

They aren't Knights or even ducks.
They are Jedi which borrow certain themes from various sources including Knights, Monks and maybe ducks too?

Could you elaborate on how using an army of clones corrupted the Jedi and the republic?
It's just like having a powerful weapon that they use for good until it get's stolen by someone with evil intentions for it.

If you're talking about the ethics of using a "slave" army if you could call it that... then that is a very interesting argument.

Without having thought about it to much I would suppose that the Jedi use a teleological based model of ethics.
That means that they will be required to make some hard decisions for the greater good, such as sacrificing the rights of these clone beings to save the larger amount of people in the Galaxy from evil.

Another example of the Jedi showing teleological ethics may be when Anakin asserts that killing Palpatine is "wrong". But Windu see's it as the right thing to do because even though it sacrifices one persons rights, it benefits more people (the people who suffered from Palpatine being allowed to live).

Taking it back to the original topic, this may be why Luke could be seen as less wise than Yoda/Windu. He has not had the experience of making hard decisions like this. He is kind hearted but naive and would probably be unable to make some of these harder ethically questionable decisions.

Very good point that Palpatine may have won anyway. But the corruption of the Jedi code certainly helped him.
There would never have been a Darth Vader if Yoda got his way.

 

Must I really explain how wrong it is to use a slave army to fight for freedom and democracy? The Senate became used to moral corruption and hypocrisy as they were faced with it constantly. After a while you can get used to everything, even murder and slavery. Therefore, when Palpatine did away with democracy they were already so used to immorality that they didn't care anymore.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MotiveDecay

It was the Republic and the Jedi who started the war, not the KUS. Unless you think assassinating one Senator and killing a spy and wanting to segregate is reason to immediately declare war? In reality the Senate and the Jedi order were concerned about losing power and wanted to strike as hard and fast as possible to assure nobody would take away power from them. Otherwise they'd send a diplomatic envoy instead of troops. But they thought and acted like Imperials would think and act. It is an effective but thoroughly corrupt logic.

Luke would never turn himself into god like these two have.

 

I dont know......

You seem to be missing the point that Yoda and company were wrong about things that Qui-Gon had a better grasp on.

Yoda and the councils initial rejection of Anakin was an early instance of Anakin's ultimate distrust of the Jedi Order.

Luke had way more Qui-Gon in him than anyone else. His refusal to kill his father being the most obvious point. He knew there was good in him. Yoda and Obi didnt want him to pursue this. They wanted him to destroy Anakin because they couldnt see any other way.

By ROTJ, what was being implied was that Luke was not only a Jedi Master, but had become a Jedi Master in the "true" form that had been lost by the Jedi Order leading up to and by the time of the PT.

 

Totally agree with you about Qui-Gon. The whole point of the prequels in my mind was that the Jedi had their heads so far up the back of their robes that their arrogance made it easy for Palpatine to simply nudge them to their own demise. They were so interested in being great warriors in a fake war that they could not see the evil forces that were conspiring against them. Balance to the Force swings both ways, and that era was filled with an abundance of arrogant Jedi ("A flaw more and more common" as Yoda would say). They lost their way and had to be brought back to some form of humility which is a big reason Yoda exiled himself to Dagobah.

I like to think that Qui Gon was a big Jedi hippie (he wore a poncho on Tatooine, after all) and had the right idea of what being "wise" truly meant. Obi-Wan was a mix of the old and the new teachings, and Luke was all about going back to basics. I hope to see Luke as more of a wise Jedi who knows he doesn't need to fight, but will if he has to.

 

Like this:

 

I always get the feeling much like churches the jedi became more dogmatic through the years thousands if years they existed. I felt the jedi order had become arrogant (as it was mentioned in the PT). I think what ever the jedi have become now (if any exist apart from Luke) will be nothing like we have seen in the PT

 

They are knights who meditate and have paranormal abilities that must be fine tuned. The mental discipline and spiritual insight of a Jedi far surpasses a mere knight. They're more like the Shao Lin monks who train in martial arts but integrate their training with spiritual disciplines. Jedi have so many roles. They're like special ops monk knight diplomat detectives with super powers.

 

He will be incredibly weak in every possible way. There will be so much slapstick because of this.

 

You guys make some great points. Although I don't think Pevra understood what I was alluding to about ethics being a subjective matter.
After considering your points you might say that the more emotional type of Jedi thought got them in the Galactic Empire mess, but it also got them out of it (or helped them get into it and helped them get out of it).


In the end the whole Jedi plot line of star wars seems like philosophical see saw between teleological (logical calculated results based) ethics and deontological (human emotional rights based) ethics/philosophy.
Would be interested to hear Lucas's thoughts on it. Anyone aware of an interview where he discusses the philosophy behind star wars?

 

I think the Jedi that Luke is most like is his master Yoda. I notice grandmasters tend to be quirky/wise. Except unlike Yoda, he relies far more on pure luck and does not adhere to strict rules. He carries forward a lot of Yoda’s philosophy but is more capable of thinking outside the box.

 

He was trained by the Einstien Goblin himself. I'm sure something rubbed off, at least some of that slimey green body sweat.

 

IDK? I think Luke's decision not to kill his father was a pretty hard and wise decision. He might have been naive in ANH but by them time ROTJ came around he was no longer naive.

 

The one that got shot?

 

I just wonder where that supposed spiritual insight is as they don't display much. They are really not more insightful than your average european knight was. Luke is a sole exception but he is also the least monkish Jedi.

Both european knights and Jedi have committed that would nowadays be considered crimes against humanity. And for some reason we're supposed to sympathize with the *******s.

 

This is hogwash. What got them into the mess was using the slave army and not recognizing the treachery right in front of them. Not investigating properly. Anakins fall didn't cause the downfall of the Jedi, order 66 and Palpy, who has amassed more and more power right in front of their noses, did.

Not much. It seems his ethics are a pile of poodoo. Otherwise you can hardly explain all the stupid messages woven into the PT.

 

I'd like the idea of Luke being a mysterious figure in Episode VII; not aligned to the Jedi Order or others, but a shadowy figure that Jedi's discuss and exchange stories about - but have never seen. Only the Council would know about his existence and true identity.

 

That would be cool.
But for gods sake it's Jedi not Jedi's.

If Anakin hadn't turned to the dark side Palpatine would have died and neither order 66 not the "slave" army would have been a problem for the Jedi.

Seem clear enough to me.
Just because some aspects of the prequels sucked doesn't mean everything did. Like Blaster said, it's become fashionable to put down every aspect of them deservingly or not.
The core storyline and themes behind it was always good. It was just executed very poorly.

 

I just wanted to add this into the mix of this conversation:

In the OT, we were simply told that the Jedi were destroyed. Nothing more, nothing less. The portrayal of Luke being reckless and perhaps immature held its own meaning in a way until the PT came to light. It was the PT that showed us how and why the Jedi Order crumbled under Palpatines plans.

We saw Qui-Gon struggle with an organization that he knew was wrong about certain things, and his push to move the Jedi way of thought to a more mindful place. This gave a clearer view of what Luke was feeling in the OT when he was introduced to The Force and his true heritage, and all that came with it.

Just sayin'........

 

He'd have initiated order 66 all the same.

If the Jedi somehow manage to kill Sidious (say with Anakins help), 99% percent of them would still be killed by storm troopers, the Jedi would be declared enemies of state for murdering the chancellor and utter chaos would result because of all that. What Windu and friends attempted was basically military putsch.

If you think so. I'm more on David Brins side on that.

 

_ _ _ _

All this talk of ducks reminded me of another Lucas masterpiece:

 

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How would Sidious have initiated Order 66 if he was dead? It seems pretty clear that they are primed to obey him and only him.

If Mace Windu had managed to kill him, then Order 66 wouldn't have happened.

You call it a military putsch - surely it's more equivalent to, say, the Von Staufenberg plot to assassinate Hitler. There is nothing in the prequels to suggest the Jedi wish to govern the Republic. Also, by failing to kill Sidious when they had the chance the Galaxy was condemned to decades of repression and mass murder, which surely wouldn't have occurred under a transitional Jedi administration.

I think that the moral questions raised by Windu's decision that Sidious must be eliminated are rather more complex than you're giving them credit for. And Lucas is a little smarter than you seemingly want to give him credit for.

Also, David Brin's a bit of a prat, who never liked the Original Trilogy in the first place.

 

It took Sidious about five minutes to initiate order 66. And even if he were killed before he could do it, his vice-chancellor, whoever he is, could do it. For all we know he may have left some orders in case of his death.

Also the whole argument started from the claim that Qui-Gons emotionality lead to the downfall of the order. If Anakin were not trained, he wouldn't matter anyways.

Almost the entire Senate stood behind Palpatine and were wary of the Jedi because they believed the Jedi wanted to take power (which might or might not have been the case). Murdering Palpatine like that wouldn't accomplish much other than plunge the galaxy into chaos. The Jedi should have tried to find some actual evidence for his crimes before they try to arrest him. That way, at least they have the law at their side. Not much, but more than the nothing they had.

Look, I'm not against eliminating someone like Palpatine on principle. But how it was attempted was plain stupid and lacking in wisdom and foresight.

I don't agree with Brin on everything, that's for sure. He exaggerates and comes off as a douchebag quite often. But he does offer some valid points.

 

I agree, Windu's decision to eliminate Sidious was the correct one. Unfortunately, Anakin's mind was clouded by the Dark Side and his intervention in the confrontation sealed his fate and that of the Jedi. The foundation of both trilogies were laid in those few minutes.

 

How strong would Luke be? Strong enough to pull the ears off a gundark.

 

He'll be strong enough to crush his enemies, see them flee before him, and hear the lamentations of their women.