ST Luke Skywalker/Mark Hamill Discussion Thread [SEE WARNING ON PAGE 134]

@Talos of Atmora


Regarding Finn:

TFA doesn't actually resolve or land on Finn's relationship with the Resistance. He doesn't join them. He's there out of ideological commitment - his actions are driven by self-preservation and his connection to Rey. He literally lies about knowing how to destroy Starkiller Base just to save Rey...this is after lying about being Resistance to escape the FO. Like Han at the end of ANH, his motivation seems personal rather than political. Given this, why would TLJ show him "seamlessly integrating" when TFA never established that foundation?

You say Finn should want to liberate other stormtroopers, but this isn't projected in TFA. His immediate reaction to escaping was to run as far as possible, not to turn around and free others. That seems more like a fan preference than what the films actually established.

As for understanding war profiteering - the First Order would indoctrinate stormtroopers with propaganda, not educate them about complex economic systems. Someone raised in that environment wouldn't have the framework to immediately grasp these concepts.

The Trevorrow script had interesting ideas for Finn, and its existence demonstrates that TLJ didn't necessarily compel the specific choices in TROS that you dislike.

Regarding Kylo/Luke:

Your comparison to Vader actually strengthens my point - the OT never explored Vader's detailed backstory, yet we accepted him as a compelling villain. We learned he was Luke's father and that was enough. Similarly, Kylo's full history doesn't need to be spelled out in the films.

To me, Luke's moment of weakness feels more dramatically compelling than simply "failing to notice" Kylo slipping. A flash of fear followed by immediate shame is more human than mere obliviousness. The temple students' fate is clearly implied - do we really need explicit details when the emotional weight is already conveyed?

TLJ treats Kylo as the villain he is. He murders his master for power, manipulates Rey, and ends the film as the clear antagonist. That's not an "antihero" treatment. I mean, I can't speak for you...but I didn't really view TLJ Ren as anything other than a bad guy.

Regarding Rey/Kylo:

You argue Rey should have pressed the "Why did you hate him?" question, but the film reveals Kylo's worldview through his actions. He tells her she's nothing, tries to tear down her sense of self - this shows his character more effectively than exposition would.

Rey literally shuts the door on him in their final interaction - a definitive visual and narrative statement. The Trevorrow script proves other directions were available, so TROS's choices aren't TLJ's fault.

Regarding power/fascism and found family:

TLJ directly examines power through DJ's war profiteering, Holdo's sacrifice, and Luke winning through non-violence. The film critiques military, economic, and spiritual forms of power.

TLJ emphasizes found family through Rose and Finn's bond, Poe's leadership arc, and Rey's place within the Resistance. The film ends with them united, plus a Force-sensitive stable boy - suggesting the future belongs to ordinary people choosing to stand together, not bloodlines.

These feel less like failures of TLJ and more like preferences for different storytelling choices.

 

We know more about Anakin from the OT than we do about Ben from the ST.

We know that he was a Jedi Knight. A cunning warrior. The best star pilot in the galaxy. A good friend. That he fought in the Clone Wars with Obi-wan. That he was seduced by the dark side of the Force and was killed by Vader.

Later we know that he was much like Luke. Impatient. Reckless. But Powerful. And it was these failings that the Emperor used in his seduction.

Even later still, we find out he is Vader. That he feels conflicted about his past, as Anakin, and has some level of regret about things, even if he also believes he has no choice in the matter.

In the end, he makes the right choice, accepts his faults and takes responsibility for his evil. Which backs up Obi-wan's recollection that he was a good man.

We know almost nothing about Ben. His parents and uncle simply say he was powerful, refer to him as 'just a boy', and that it's Snoke's fault. They can't even offer a normal generic parental 'he was a good kid'. Nothing. No body has any fond memories of him. His parents want him back, but we don't really know what they actually lost, other than 'son'. He has no personality traits. No desires or dreams or specific talents. Nothing. He is a void. As Kylo he is erratic, emotional, volatile, privileged. His biggest fear is that he's not seen as evil. So he's out to prove them wrong. By killing his family.

But against that doesn't really speak about Ben, or any of his good qualities. And when he supposedly goes back to being Ben, he's a mute void again.

 

Finn isn't like Han though, is he? I am genuinely convinced you only skimmed what I actually wrote because in my alternative storyline, I propose that he doesn't start out wanting to necessarily liberate the stormtroopers. He develops that consciousness in the first third of the film by having been part of the other side of the war and deciding as he's fighting his former enslaved, indoctrinated comrades that there should be another way. That they need to be given the same chance he had and that he has the responsibility to show it to them. All I'm asking is for Finn to have a genuine moral conflict that flows naturally from his background and that his dynamic from the Resistance actually be a result of it. Rian apparently doesn't believe in the character enough to feel him deserving of that.

I find this constant refrain about how he's only interested in saving Rey to be kind of weird because that's how a lot of people end up starting to fight an authoritarian regime, their connections to others. That's where the Han comparison also begins to fall apart because all he was interested in was money. It took him a bit to care about what happened to others. The other issue with it is that it's literally not how his defiance against the First Order even starts so what does it matter? His lie about knowing how to destroy Starkiller Base isn't even that much of a setback considering that they just...use explosives.

Him joining the Resistance isn't beyond the pale at all either because a member of the Resistance is the first person to refer to him by something other than his serial number. A name that sounds like it could belong to an actual person. Poe visibly cringes at the idea of actually referring to Finn by his First Order designation. When they meet again for the first time after their escape, he embraces him like a brother. They are the reason he is even alive at the start of TLJ. I imagine this would actually mean something which is why TLJ should have been about how his perception shifts as he fights on the other side of the war. Where in his fervor to use his skills in combat against an enemy force he has grown to hate, he realizes that this cannot be done through brute force. He cannot defeat the First Order without endeavoring to save those who are like him. The rest of those brainwashed soldiers he used to be a part of who have not yet been given the chance to see. He has to inspire people. Would he start out TLJ believing this? No. Is that where he'd end up and have an actually organic conflict with the Resistance over it? Yes. Why? Because he loves them since he sees his struggle in them.

Starting out being part of the Resistance is so much better for his story because it gives him the chance to exercise agency and explore his morality in a compelling way without some other character making it all about them and lecturing him about it (which I imagine is why some find Rose such an annoying addition, quite frankly. Kelly was dealt a godawful hand there.) Nothing Canto Bight navel-gazes about would actually galvanize Finn more than watching a village getting butchered first hand and an entire system of civilizations being destroyed in the blink of an eye. After all, fascists also lean into anxieties over class struggle and rhetorically associate themselves with the downtrodden and dispossessed with promises of alleviating their struggle. That's what makes stalling Finn's development for it kind of pointless. What's incredible is that the only time Finn really uses his history with the FO in order to actually try to sway his former comrades by showcasing Phasma's cowardice is cut from the film. Even this small act is something he is not allowed within the narrative.

Yet again, you miss the point completely. Rey shutting the door on him in the film with the prior sequence of events cannot be concretely definitive because what Han and his death at Kylo's hand means to her is de-emphasized. It is forgotten when it should come back full circle as it is what should inevitably pit them against one another for good. In a sense, it's why the manipulation should fail but what should also irrevocably change Rey. It doesn't. What she values and cares about is utterly not at play to that betrayal which is why TROS, with complete confidence, undoes it because it is as simple as brushing some dust under a rug with how Rian handled it. It's what leaves the door open to "I never lied." and Han's memory that Leia imparts to him being the catalyst for his laughably thrown-together redemption in TROS. His perception of his family saves him when what it should be doing is condemning him. You say that the Trevorrow script proves other directions were available but that's not the point. The point is asking why they didn't take those other directions instead.

A few points here. That emphasis on found family was kind of already in TFA when Finn and Rey were being accepted and given places and personhood by those not related to them by blood. People who relate to them or see the good in them. With Poe, it was doing something incredibly significant, referring to Finn by a name rather than a number. With Rey, it was Han giving her a place on the Falcon. Somewhere to belong in earnest. Maybe if they were genuinely interested in their struggles as ordinary people, they would have emphasized those bonds more acutely than in a film that navel-gazes about the Resistance buying weapons from war profiteers for the incredible crime of...wanting to fight fascism.

 

When does Finn decide that he wants to liberate the other stormtroopers? That’s not established at all TFA, where he kills stormtroopers without ever expressing regret that he has to or interest in redeeming them.

 

I'm not saying this happened in TFA, that's how I'm saying the alternate storyline for him in TLJ should have gone.

 

Ok. I can understand wanting that storyline but I don’t think anything in his previously established character leads to him wanting to liberate the other stormtroopers, other then maybe his one comrade who died in TFA. I remember it being a common fan expectation but I didn’t believe they were ever going that way. Even though they’re kidnapped children the stormtroopers are not treated as unwilling participants, Finn had enough agency to choose to leave, and I’m sure other stormtroopers who rebelled were dealt with. The ones the characters fight are still treated like stormtroopers from the OT. Many of whom were likely drafted and indoctrinated yet it was never a plot point that they deserve to be liberated.

 

It's why I said that the film should begin with him in the Resistance as he's been fighting the First Order for a bit now. That's where the cognitive dissonance of him fighting and killing stormtroopers would creep in (it's not like he doesn't do it plenty with zero examination in the actual films as it is). He would end up seeing his former comrade, and subsequently himself, in them. Essentially, that's where his desire to show them that rebelling is possible would come from and really where a lot of the dramatic conflict with the Resistance would come into play. Entrenched in a bitter stage of the war where both factions are in a bloody stalemate, he would have to once again go against the wishes and fears of his superiors for what he feels is a higher purpose: to give those indoctrinated troops he was once a part of that same chance. He would be of the unpopular belief that destroying the First Order can only happen if his former stormtroopers are themselves liberated. It would be a radical stance he would develop and act on with increasing fervor as the film progresses.

This warrants some consideration because the moment Rian films a scene where it is Finn who is himself sowing the seeds of this rebellion among the stormtroopers when he calls Phasma's cowardice out, it is cut from the film entirely. No one fought for that scene even though it would have created something far more compelling for Finn moving forward.

 

Do you think them not moving forward with that sort of plot was a conscious decision to keep the enemy stormtroopers from being humanized? just like how George Lucas didn’t want them to be identifiable as people so they could be killed without showing human on human violence. Though given the fandoms reaction they underestimated the effect humanizing one stormtrooper in Finn would have on the perception of the rest of the first order stormtroopers.

 

I think they also underestimated the effect of how they aesthetically crafted the First Order in tandem with that as well. A lot of people walked away with the impression that the First Order was an even more fanatical and extreme Imperial splinter faction and that should have informed Finn having an aim like that. The kind of cult-like fanatical devotion that was whipped into internal factions within the Empire like the Imperial Royal Guard would now be uniform among the ranks in the First Order with mass reeducation at the slightest whiff of disobedience. That primes someone like Finn in his circumstances to break the programming. To present that choice outside of the system, that things are possible. Does the system seem fragile? Yes, but that's the point. Would all of them defect? Obviously not but that's also the point. He does this because he believes they were never given the choice. That's what separates the Empire's conscripts from the FO's drones.

 

These are not the OT stormtroopers though. If you're gonna create a new group of troopers who are all (most?) kidnapped kids, programmed via tech to be mindless killers, and then ONE of the wakes up and defects ...

Well...than that kind of story should be explored because that's the nature of the story you're telling. It's different than what Lucas was doing in the OT, a little bit anyway where the troopers were mercs and weakminded, but not that much from what he did in the PT, where the clones were technologically created, but removed their helmets, showed individuality, and where somewhat friendly with the Jedi.

 

@Talos of Atmora


I apologize for not fully addressing your alternative storyline for Finn - it's actually pretty compelling. Your version would definitely work, giving Finn a natural progression from joining the Resistance to wanting to liberate stormtroopers. But while I can see the appeal, I genuinely enjoyed what we got in TLJ. It's like how I might dream up alternate versions of the prequels, but at the end of the day, I'm discussing what was made rather than hypotheticals.

About personal vs. political motivations - good point that they often blend together, but TFA doesn't really establish Finn as being with the Resistance ideologically. His initial defection was indeed his own moral choice (that village massacre was brutal), but by the end of TFA, he straight-up says he's "only here for Rey." Maybe he's not being entirely honest with himself, but that's what the film gives us.

Your points about his connection to Poe are solid - giving him a name instead of a number is huge. But these personal connections don't automatically make him committed to the cause, especially when he directly states otherwise.

I totally agree the cut scene showing Finn exposing Phasma's cowardice should have stayed in. That would've been a powerful moment using his unique background.

You make a good point about Canto Bight - Finn had already witnessed a village massacre and the destruction of the Hosnian system, so the war profiteering lesson does feel a bit redundant for his character. And your observation about fascists also exploiting class anxieties is spot-on - it makes that subplot less effective for Finn specifically.

I can see why Rose's role might feel frustrating if you wanted Finn to have more agency in discovering these realizations himself rather than being lectured about them.

Regarding Rey/Kylo - Rey does ask him about Han, but I get your frustration that this thread isn't developed as fully as it could have been. As for why they didn't take other directions - I can't really speak to the filmmakers' intentions, but I suspect it's because they wanted to leave options open for Episode IX.

I understand feeling TLJ missed opportunities with Finn. We can always debate what "should have" happened, and that makes sense if you didn't connect with the film. As someone who enjoyed TLJ, I wouldn't change much beyond maybe not killing Luke, but I respect that you see different potential in these characters and storylines.

 

No it wasn’t a conscious decision to keep stormtroopers dehumanised. It was more a deficiency in approach and an issue in the writing generally, where Abrams/Kasdan et al couldn’t recognise an opportunity nor commit fully to a single idea. I don’t think they ever asked themselves what factors would lead to Finn defecting I.e. his motivation, and in turn, what implications that would have for how Finn would see himself and what he would do. Him being a stormtrooper just doesn’t go anywhere. It’s not used in any constructive or dramatic way… other than him having some form of access to SKB? It becomes a facile plot device that creates zero dramatic tension and payoff (other than him being able to rescue Poe in the first 10 mins of the film).

Compare it to Andor, just for one example, where Finn could have been a hardened soldier, who finds a young child during combat, and is unwilling to kill them/hand them over. Think about how something like that could have worked, where it could have taken those characters… the drama it could have created. It’s a million miles from what we got in TFA… which is just so vapid.

 

I think what happened to Finn, happened to all the characters. JJ (and Kasden) had some idea, and then they never explored any part of it Defected stormtrooper (maybe has the force). Mysterious Scavenger (has the force). Exiled Luke. Kylo AKA: Opposite Vader. They all have some kind of core concept going on, but none of it is explored in any measurable way on screen beyond their introduction scene. Its like they had a brainstorming session the first day of writing the script, came up with the concepts for each character, and they just went "well, that's done".

Finn, just happened to have the only original concept out of the ST. But he never once seems like a soldier. He's written primarily as a coward, and occasionally as comic relief, who latches on to Rey. Now free, he seems ... normal. There's no social awkwardness from his character trying to fit into a new social setting, all while exploring what his new found freedom actually means. But he does at least pick up that saber twice, and fights, and then tries to defend his fallen friend in battle.

And while Rey gets the most attention for being an outright mystery box, all of them, all of their conceptual backstories, are never really used to build their story. At least not in TFA. In TLJ, Kylo gets a sliver of his focused on, and it tries to explore Luke more, but it doesn't really make sense and leaves more questions on the table than it actually answers. Rey is still a mystery. The only thing adding to her backstory is ultimately a red herring or a lie. Meanwhile Finn is guilt-tripped about not wanting to fight, a day after defecting from being kidnapped kid trained soldier and treated like a dummy for not knowing slavery is a bad thing. He's also tased unconscious repeatedly throughout the movie, whenever RJ needs to get him to a new scene. I"m not even sure if this was some kind of inside joke by RJ on the character, or if he just did it unknowingly. Then in TROS, JJ finally has to do something with Rey. The can cannot be kicked down the road any more. So they threw a dart at the board and went "Palpatine!".