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Amph "Make it so." - Star Trek: Picard Discussion Thread [CBSAA/CraveTV/Amazon]

Discussion in 'Community' started by Darth_Voider, May 16, 2019.

  1. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord 9X Hangman Winner & 4X Wacky Wednesday Winner star 10 VIP - Game Winner

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    Sep 2, 2012
    Starfleet was willing to ignore their threats of secession before the attack on Mars, but apparently not after.

    Might depend on how long those members have been part of it, and how influential they are. Vulcan, or Tellar, or Andor, threatening to secede, might be treated much more seriously than, say, ones who'd only developed warp travel and joined the Federation a few years before rather than centuries before.
     
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  2. dp4m

    dp4m JCC Playoff Pick 'Em Winner, Also a Narc star 10 VIP - Game Winner

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    Nov 8, 2001
    I think we can reasonably assume it was not the Vulcans, or humans -- so 50% of the original founders were onboard. And WTF gives a crap about Andorians when they're dying out... :p
     
  3. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord 9X Hangman Winner & 4X Wacky Wednesday Winner star 10 VIP - Game Winner

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    Aren't they only dying out in the Trek Expanded Universe?

    The Vulcans were the biggest barrier to Spock's plan in the old Countdown comic. Not canon, but the basic idea, that the Vulcan leadership really strongly dislikes Romulans, no matter how "illogical" it may be, might still hold.
     
    Last edited: Apr 8, 2020
  4. Chancellor_Ewok

    Chancellor_Ewok Chosen One star 7

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    Nov 8, 2004
    Yeah, I could be misremembering, but I don’t think the show ever tells us exactly which worlds objected to the evacuation of Romulas, but the implication seems to be that the dissenting voices came from founding worlds. If true, I don’t think that makes the Federation corrupt. The Federation clearly wanted and intended to do the right thing. It just got blindsided by events and found itself in an impossible situation. Let Romulas burn or destroy the Federation.
     
    Last edited: Apr 8, 2020
  5. Darth Guy

    Darth Guy Chosen One star 10

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    Aug 16, 2002
    To me by the end of the season the "this is not Star Trek" concern was secondary. The main reason I do not like the show is because the plot and character motivations make no ****ing sense. It's typical of a Kurtzman project-- Discovery season 2 was even more nonsensical. It's clear that the writers just want things to move from point A to point B to point C without doing the legwork of actually building up the developments. The Zhat Vash gave up, the andr-- synths gave up, the Reapers gave up, Picard has a crew assembled and paired off including at least two murderers (one of whom promised to turn herself in and never did)-- and all this happened because the season ended. It was the end so things had to be magically resolved. It wasn't earned. I could go on at length but the whole thing is so dumb.
     
    Last edited: Apr 8, 2020
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  6. K2771991

    K2771991 Jedi Master star 4

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    Dec 21, 2019
    The events in Insurrection happened with the knowladge and authorization of the Federation Council, and in DS9 the council was perfectly okay with letting an entire race (the Founders) be wiped out even though they could have cured them just becuse they happened to be at war with them. Not to mention that In the Pale Moonlight Sisko's original plan (to lie to the Romulans in order to get them to join the war) was done with authorization.

    Disco's only conflict with TOS that I can think of is astetics. There's really nothing, as far as I can recall, that cuases issues with the timeline.

    And yeah, the Romulans were allies during the Dominion War, but only allies of circomstance and allies who not only almost got in a shooting war with anouther ally (Bajor) during the war, but also allies who immedatly went back to being enemies post-war.

    Yeah, Ben mentions "transporter rations," so they definatly had some sort of public transporter network. Not to mention the "Old City Station" in ST III, which is manned by Starfleet officers but is named in such a way to indicate that its a civil transport hub.

    I think the sunglasses were supposed to be a hint that she was'nt quite what she seemed to be.

    They banned synths becuse a bunch went rogue and massacured an entire planet. Picard makes it clear that it was a reaction made out of fear (and we can assume public outcry as well, peaple were probobly already wary of them to begin with, based on how a lot of peaple treated Data in TNG and how some of the workers on Mars acted towards the labor units).

    As for B4 was'nt he already disassembled? Even if he was'nt "disassembled" does not equal "killed" and, irregardless, the ban applied to both sentient and non-sentient synths, so it's not like his sentience would exempt him from it.

    Juliana married Soong when she was twenty-five and he was a fair bit older (we know this becuse her mother was opposed to the marriage becuse of the age gap) so there's plenty of time for him to have anouther wife with whom he bore Altan. As for why we've never heard of him before now we only actually met Soong once and very briefly at that, and he's far from the first Star Trek character whose close family members were'nt brought up until they were nessesery to the plot (Robert, Marie and Rene Picard, Sybok and Michael, Demora Sulu (whose mother we still don't know anything about), David Marcus, T'Les, Elizabeth Tucker, B'leanna's cousins, ect)

    Personally I never had much of an issue with the Prime Directive morality since we've been told that it only applies to Starfleet; for all we know the Federation regularly goes around assisting, albeit carefully and sometimes indirectly, less advenced civilizations, and their are civilian groups similier to the Peace Corps and the Red Cross, who do that kind of intervention/assistence as part of their regular mission.

    I've always taken the Prime Directive to be more for keeping the militery from sticking its nose in other peaples biusness without clearence, as to prevent all the issues and disasters that arose during Earth's Age of Discovery and incidents of rogue gunboat diplomacy al la the stunt that the USS Boston pulled in Hawaii in 1893.

    The goverments and politics of each world - to say nothing of those of the Federation itself - would have changed over time (as would the guidelines for joining as well seemingly, becuse Stratos from The Cloud Minders voilates the one of requirments would have been disqualified if it adopted - the "no caste system rule). Not to mention that for some two centuries the Romulans would have been "the enemy" with whom the Federation would have been locked in an almost constant cold war with.

    Remember that helping the Klingons was so bitterly opposed that it led to members of the Federation's high command conspiring with both the Romulans and the Klingons themselves to prevent it from taking place via cuasing a series of events that almost certianly would have led to war.

    The Cardassian War was a prolonged border skirmish that most of the Federation probobly did'nt notice had occured (after all, it was never mentioned once during the first three season of TNG), and the Cardassians had'nt been "the enemy" for two centuries.

    We don't know which members were opposed to it, but assuming that just some of them were major players (I can see the Andorians and Tellarites being opposed, based on their prior dipictions, and probobly Benzar too becuse the Romulans had "liberated" the planet during the war and I doubt they'd be kind saviors) their withdrawl could shatter the Federation economicly and as a creditable political enitity and maybe even compell a great disinergation via convincing other members to jump ship.

    The attack probobly emboldend the anti-assistence faction and increased their influance either through cuasing those opposed to them to lose spirit or cuasing undecided worlds to join the "help them and we withdraw" party bus (or a mix of both)

    Considering that their a major Federation member-state and info from Enterprise implies that they, unlike Earth and presumably others, retained their militery after the Federation was formed, I'd give a crap what they think:p:p
     
    Last edited: Apr 8, 2020
  7. The2ndQuest

    The2ndQuest Tri-Mod With a Mouth star 10 Staff Member Manager

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    Jan 27, 2000
    I actually never made that connection before. Interesting.

    It's not defaultly corrupt. Perhaps the loss of "unity" would have resulted in potentially worse consequences? That's the point- we don't know all the details.
     
    Last edited: Apr 8, 2020
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  8. Chancellor_Ewok

    Chancellor_Ewok Chosen One star 7

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    Nov 8, 2004
    Yeah, that’s always been my interpretation of the underlying purpose of the Prime Directive. A group of relatively technologically advanced, but socially immature, cultures unintentionally came into contact with a group of cultures that were far behind them technologically and semi-accidentally destroyed them. As Star Trek posits an enlightened humanity that has learned from its mistakes, the idea that the Federation would adopt a hands off attitude toward pre-warp or otherwise uncontacted societies makes sense.
     
  9. K2771991

    K2771991 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 21, 2019
    I doubt the Federation dropped all aid, either, or forbad civilian ships from going to assist in the evacutation of their own accord.

    Really the only thing that bugs me about the whole senario that the show presents is why could'nt the Romulans evacuate the planet/system on their own? Is it becuse they waited to long? Even so they should have had the resorces to do as much as the Federation. Their a militeristic society that's been gearing up for intergalactic war for centuries and they don't have a like a few thousand troop transports laying around that they could have filled with peaple?

    It would be funny if the show reveals later that they were engaged in war with the Klingons and could'nt spare the resorces. That would super ironic, that the Federation had to evacuate Romulus becuse their closest ally was beating up on the Romies so bad they could pull it off on their own.

    "Hey Martok, Picard wants to ask if you would'nt mind stopping for a bit?"
    "No Worf! Glorious victory is at hand! Forward!"
    "Ugh..."

    Not to mention the potential political ramifications that would arise from letting random ship captians get to decide the political/socioeconomic/geopolitical futures of worlds. Not only would that not look well to outside observers, but I'm sure that the goverments of these planets would'nt care for the fact that Federation allowed it's armed forces to interfer in local affairs.
     
    Last edited: Apr 8, 2020
  10. BigAl6ft6

    BigAl6ft6 Force Ghost star 7

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    Nov 12, 2012
    Mentioned this before but showrunner Chabon said he was going to include a reference to Starfleet being spooked because of the Dominion War but was talked out of it. I just see the Federation's very anti-Federation stance towards the Romulans the culmination of pretty much a decade or more of disasters starting at Wolf 359 to another Borg invasion, multiple near wars with Romulans and Klingons, Dominion War, and synths destroying Mars. And also of note, Jean Luc himself states repeatedly this is a very bad thing for Starfleet to do, literally yelling "It wasn't Starfleet anymore!" Also Starfleet's actions (or lack thereof) do work with Nero's line to Pike about "Your Federation did nothing as her world cracked in half."
     
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2020
  11. The2ndQuest

    The2ndQuest Tri-Mod With a Mouth star 10 Staff Member Manager

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    Jan 27, 2000
    Though the selection and variety may be a bit too over the top as an overreaction in the other direction, nonetheless:

     
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  12. Darth Guy

    Darth Guy Chosen One star 10

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    Aug 16, 2002
    I thought the Enterprise-F was going to show up at the head of that fleet, but I guess they probably didn't want to commit to a design. It was weird as hell that the ships were all the same class. Lazy, too. Like the writing.
     
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2020
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  13. BigAl6ft6

    BigAl6ft6 Force Ghost star 7

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    Nov 12, 2012
    I like to think Riker's Pizza Fleet was very specialized one so that's why they all looked the same (and also a considerable drain on Starfleet resources it looks like, apparently)
     
  14. The2ndQuest

    The2ndQuest Tri-Mod With a Mouth star 10 Staff Member Manager

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    Jan 27, 2000
    Yeah, that it was only made up of 2 or 3 ship classes that are very similar to each other, in addition to their smaller size, makes it feel like a fast response fleet.

    Which is probably what they were actually going for- something that could be kept on stand by in large numbers without heavy resource or crew drain. Makes more sense in that purpose than a bunch of large and specialized ships creating a fan service fleet.

    I do think it would have been nice if the Zheng He, as the flagship of the group, had been a unique or familiar class, though. That would have mirrored the Romulan fleet’s makeup as well.
     
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2020
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  15. Darth Downunder

    Darth Downunder Chosen One star 6

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    Aug 5, 2001
    Riker was very clear about that when he ordered the fleet. He didn’t want one of everything on the menu. Just a hundred Capricciosa Class ships to go. Nothing fancy.
     
  16. The2ndQuest

    The2ndQuest Tri-Mod With a Mouth star 10 Staff Member Manager

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    Jan 27, 2000
    With a side of buffalo nacelles.
     
  17. Sith_Sensei__Prime

    Sith_Sensei__Prime Chosen One star 6

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    May 22, 2000
    Started to watch Pichard and I keep getting pulled out of the series when they have scenes at Starfleet headquarters as it's the Anaheim Convention Center; a place that I've been to many times. When I see Starfleet HQ I keep thinking to myself, "I stood right there" or "I know where that is."

    Also, I've been spoiled with alot of happenings of the series since I've been listening to Robert Meyer Burnett's YouTube channel ranks on Pichard. His rants made me sign up for the free month trial to CBS All Access and watch Pichard.
     
  18. Chancellor_Ewok

    Chancellor_Ewok Chosen One star 7

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    Nov 8, 2004
  19. BigAl6ft6

    BigAl6ft6 Force Ghost star 7

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    Nov 12, 2012
    No way, DeLance is right there!
     
  20. Chancellor_Ewok

    Chancellor_Ewok Chosen One star 7

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    Nov 8, 2004
    Yeah. I’d be OK with someone else playing a member of the Q Continuum, but I want John DeLancie as well.
     
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  21. Sith_Sensei__Prime

    Sith_Sensei__Prime Chosen One star 6

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    May 22, 2000
  22. Darth Downunder

    Darth Downunder Chosen One star 6

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    Aug 5, 2001
    Good, Picard will need Geordie to run diagnostics on him.
     
  23. Chancellor_Ewok

    Chancellor_Ewok Chosen One star 7

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    Nov 8, 2004
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  24. Darth Guy

    Darth Guy Chosen One star 10

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    Aug 16, 2002
    They'll kill him off in the cold open of episode 5. He'll get stabbed through the throat with his VISOR.
     
    Last edited: Apr 17, 2020
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  25. Darth Downunder

    Darth Downunder Chosen One star 6

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    Aug 5, 2001
    While in the throes of passion with another holodeck girl.
     
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