Mandalorian females?

The glaring implausibility of that idea is attested to by the fact that no human culture has ever attempted anything like it.

I tend to think that all of the armoured Sith we see in the game are male, with some female personnel serving in a uniformed (but not armoured) capacity, since Revan's Sith seem to reference various aspects of the Galactic Empire.

 

The glaring implausibility of that idea is attested to by the fact that no human culture has ever attempted anything like it.

Yes, because that's really a impediment in world with psychic powers.

I tend to think that all of the armoured Sith we see in the game are male, with some female personnel serving in a uniformed (but not armoured) capacity, since Revan's Sith seem to reference various aspects of the Galactic Empire.

I still am annoyed there's no option to seduce the female Sith in the bar.

 

Right, because the mere existence of pyschic powers in this galaxy is really going to alleviate the problems inherent in dropping large numbers of females into a violently competitive group of heavily-armed young males trained to kill whatever gets in their way.

 

There's no problem with it whatsoever. Unless you presume that Mandalorian are going to become innately rapists. It's working in the real world and frankly, the Mandalorians as a rule tend to work alone or small groups rather than in large army like forces.

 

I think you're missing the point.

What is? Women integrated into combat units as you're suggesting? I'm afraid not.

Ah, but we're discussing a time when Mandalorians as a rule tended to work in large, army-like forces rather than alone or in small groups.

 

Not really.

I disagree.

In which case there's even less problem.

Two options,

I tend to think that the Mandalorians are probably culturally conditioned from birth to not really recognize gender outside of marriage. This is a culture that's supremely bloodthirsty. Women and children are not viewed as non-combatants to them because they're raised to be child soldiers with women every bit as vicious. QM, while your argument may certainly have some biological or social cultural merit to it, the Mandalorians are a fantasy depiction that goes well beyond Spartans in terms of brutality and mental hammering.

In real life, such a culture might be profoundly sexist or subsist by taking concubines from their pillage but the Star Wars version of Mandalorians is one that foregoes the idea of warriors being motivated by profit or need to pass on their genetic legacy (like real world warriors) but actually motivated by honor. Mandalorians don't care anything about territory but live to fight.

Hence women in a combative role would not be a problem.

I would, however, concede that Mandalorians probably have a "mating period" or retirement age. Clearly, someone has to raise children in the Mandalorian world from the time they are born to the period they can fend for themselves. If all Mandalorians fought all the time then the culture would swiftly go extinct. That's not excluding the fact that Mandalorians certainly have jobs like Police, Farmer, and so on in Mandalore.

Assuming we're talking about "True Mandalorians" that have been raised in the culture, they will probably act a great deal like Stormtroopers in that female troopers are just one of the unit and nothing will touch them. Remember Mandalore the Indomintable had no problem blowing up civilian targets because it was a fundamentally cowardly tactic to them.

A mandalorian will gun down a mother and her babe because he's a war machine.

OR

That view doesn't give with a realistic worldview either of basic humanity and we take another view. Not because of the inability of soldiers to put aside sex in combat but simply because that seems far more alien than the portrayal of Jango Fett and Karen Traviss has put forward for the species.

Instead, I'm inclined to believe that the majority of Mandalorians in Star Wars probably function much more like National Service in that most periods of the Mandalorians have them as just serving X numbers of years in the military then going on their merry way with a social culture that glorifies training for battle but very rarely sees it (though plenty put those skills to use as bounty hunters or mercenaries).

It's only Mandalore the Indomintable that started actively conscripting people into the armor without indocricating them into the culture. Instead, the Mandalorians of the Mandalorian War are really not that disimiliar to most conquering armies throughout history where the defeated armies were absorbed into the greater sum of the conquerors.

These "mandalorians" are really just answering to the Mandalorians and as a certain Mandalorian said to Boba Fett "Just wear the armor."

A practice that isn't so far removed from modern times.

 

Yes, really. I wasn't thinking about rape at all.

Of course you do, dear. However, the fact remains that every army that's tried to implement a fully integrated combat arm with regards to women has given up on the idea.

Here we go again...

However, the Insider article on Mandalorian culture makes it plain that a Mandalorian mother (and her daughters) will stay home while a father would take his son off to fight with him, so obviously, there is an understood differentiation between male and female roles and behaviour, at least for contemporary Mandos. Mndalorians in their "crazy nomad" phase may be a bit different.

Except for the fact that they would be women in combat. Neo-Crusader era Mandos may value honour and battlefield glory above all else, but I don't think we've seen any evidence to suggest that they pursued these without regard for the continuation of their people.

Again, I think that may depend on what era we're talking about.

Which Mandalorian though? You keep switching between ancient Neo-Crusaders and contemporary Supercommando types.

Species?

That seems to be true, of contemporary Mandalore system Mandalorians...

Time snap!

 

I would agree with Charles (if I may refer to him as such) that there may well have been female Mandolorians in KotOR.

Just because the figure appears to be well muscled, and lack a *achem* chest, does not mean that the warrior is not female.

Last I heard, the United States military, and most other armies, tend not to supple their female soldiers with protruding metal brassieres.

Possible option: Amazon warriors reportedly cut off part of their chest in order to fire a bow. Perhaps a blaster gets in the way as well?

 

Yeah, I tend to think that despite certain illustrations, Mandalorian Armor is probably sexless in the same way that Samus Aaron's armor SHOULD be. Bultar Swan was able to wear Stormtrooper armor without difficulty as well. So I'm inclined to think that, were not Imperial Prejudice in place, Female Stormtroopers could also exist. Also, that there could well be female Sith Troopers in KOTOR.

Just my .02.

Except for the fact that they would be women in combat. Neo-Crusader era Mandos may value honour and battlefield glory above all else, but I don't think we've seen any evidence to suggest that they pursued these without regard for the continuation of their people.


Counterpoint, I don't think it's clear that placing their women in combat in any way devalues the continuation of their people. Part of the problem is that monogamy, by itself, makes the "war" argument where men can go off to war and die but the actual continuation of their people not be threatened a problem. In real life, there's plenty of lavicious issues that makes this not the case but not necessarilly honorable Mandalore.

Also, we have very little evidence females also remarry in Mandalore society after the common element of widowing.

 

KotOR-era Mandalorians in the comics, on the other hand, apparently do. Also, having women wear the same torso armour as men apparently creates some problems with ballistic coverage (see here) and numerous companies are starting to offer body armour specifically designed for women, such as this model here:

[image=http://www.jems.com/Images/BAE_tcm16-100508.jpg]

Contemporary female archers/shooters have reported no such concerns that I'm aware of.

See above.

[image=http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/starwars/images/a/a8/Battle_of_Amaltanna.jpg]

[image=http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/starwars/images/b/b6/Bultarchoipurge.JPG]

Yeah, that really looks like standard Trooper armour.

Counterpoint: "devaluation" is not the issue. Endangerment is.

And how is that?

Except for that statement in the Insider article to the effect that it's a single man's duty to marry a widow or find a husband for her.

 

[image=http://www.galacticempiredatabank.com/StormTrooper1.jpg]

Actually, I think that probably is the same breastplate.

 

She has access to time-travel? I'm impressed.

Seriously, what she's wearing looks very little like the torso elements of standard-issue Clone or Stormie armour and very much like this fan-art of Clone Trooper-style armour for a woman:

[image=http://www.onesixthwarriors.com/photo/data/500/foxchickcoloredinenviroks7.jpg]

 

I don't know, the Mandolorian codpiece tends to ride up, I would imagine the chest piece may be a bit awkward as well.



Seriously, I imagine that the armor may be passed down in the family. All women are different, and some may be able to fit into a man's armor.

 

Certainly, but I'd expect that most would prefer a more custom-fitted suit. I'd imagine that heirloom armour would likely be re-worked to fit the current owner as well.

 

Shoulder and ribcage size would be more of an issue regarding armor fit than breast size, unless the breasts are VERY large. It's possible to easily compress small and medium sized breasts against one's chest with only certain types of fabric; a rigid breastplate isn't even needed for that specific effect. And even given that men usually have bigger shoulders than women, a woman who is small could probably fit male armor that is made for a teenager.

 

Israel, New Zealand, Denmark, France. Just a few of the countries that allow women in front-line combat units. New Zealand has the least restrictions, including their Special Air Services.

In the US, women serve in combat capacities. Warships, fighter planes, and even behind the machine guns on the front lines. Yes, it's true they can't train as infantry as a primary specialty, but when a convoy of infantry rolls down the streets in Iraq guarded by MP units, odds are fair there's a woman standing in the turret of those MP vehicles. Ask MPs Leigh Ann Hester and Ashley Pullen (awarded the Silver and Bronze Stars, respectively, for combat action). And regardless of your Primary Military Occupational Specialty, regardless what what unit you're in, combat happens and women are there. Ask supply-unit member PFC Jessica Lynch.

The argument that women can't do combat is a false argument. Even here in the real world it's happening every day. In the fantasy SW universe, it happens all the time (Leia, pretty much ALL the time; Padme in the battle to retake Naboo?) and to think that women would NOT be combatants in a society of warriors is just naive. Yes, there are probably some homemaker-type women in the Mando society, but there are also farmer-type men who don't go out with guns blazing. All other arguments aside, the fact that the last Republic Commando shows very plainly that Mando women are warriors too should end the argument (though it won't).


As for the days of KotOR, there's an aphorism I've always believed in that applies handily here....
"Lack of evidence is not evidence of lack."

 

And alot of Mandie armor isn't like Stormie armor where its all in plasteel peices.
Most Mandie armor uses clothing with armor plates attached to it so it's plausible that it would be easier for a woman to wear the armor and not have any discernable discomfort from it.

 

About Mandalorian women's armour? I might be wrong but I'm pretty sure Karen Traviss stated that they actually do wear the shaped "breast-plates" and it's not just an artists convention.

 

Canada does as well, but like I said, we've basically given up on the idea of having a 50% male 50% female infantry. There just aren't enough women volunteering, and that's basically true of the other countries you've mentioned.

That?s all well and good, but those MPs, Humvee gunners and convoy drivers aren?t dedicated combat troops, and for good reason.

I'm a little uncertain as to why you feel the case of Lynch advances your argument; it would seem to me to be a point against it.

Perhaps, but ?doing combat? is not necessarily the same thing as soldiering in the infantry, or airborne, or whatever. Yes, we?ve had female personnel displaying unquestionable bravery and heroism when attacked by the enemy. However, that they can successfully fend off ambushes and defend themselves and their comrades in the course of the duties which they?ve been declared fit to undertake doesn?t make them any more suitable to serve as dedicated combat troops.

Women simply aren?t very well suited for military duties in general. Generally speaking, they suffer psychological trauma at a higher rate than men, their capacity for the aggression necessary for a soldier is lower, they require more provocation to behave in a sufficiently aggressive manner in combat, and tend to fear the consequences of aggressive behaviour, they?re smaller and weaker, and so can carry less equipment, ammunition, weapons and body armour and for shorter periods, their skeletal structure is weaker, and more prone to breaking, their hearing is more easily damaged by gunfire, they suffer more medical emergencies than men, they frequently drain the pool of available manpower by becoming pregnant, and their presence in mixed units has a detrimental effect on unit cohesion and discipline.

Leia often finds herself thrust into situations where she?ll find it necessary to engage in battle, but with the exception of the Endor strike, she doesn?t generally seem to serve the Rebel Alliance/New Republic in the capacity of a combat soldier.

No other female personnel present among Naboo?s ground forces save the Queen?s bodyguard?

Not really. In fact, it would be pretty strange to think otherwise.

I?m not arguing that there aren't female mercs amongst contemporary Mandos; obviously there are, and there?s little point in arguing otherwise, though the specifics would be interesting to discuss. The point of contention for me is rather the role of female Mandos during the KotOR era.

 

The glaring implausibility of that idea is attested to by the fact that no human culture has ever attempted anything like it.
Actually, I am pretty sure there have been women combat units throughout human history. Several Indian Kingdoms used exclusively women royal guard, although that was mostly a trust issues, and there were women warriors amongst at least one West African Kingdom, I believe they were called the Dali?or Mali?or something like that?and were thought to be better than their male counterparts. And while rare, their used to be female warriors in Japan, most famously female ninjas, but also Ronin and Yojimbo (and I do remember at least one case of a woman killing her husband?s rival as a wedding gift?). Not to mention, the female kin of samurai were expected to know how to fight with a naginata to defend their homes. There also exists evidence of female Viking, Celtic (remember Queen Boudica? Burned London to the ground) and Vietnamese warriors. Additionally, there were female soldiers used by the Russians and Germans in world war, with the Russian women earning some fame despite being given outdated equipment, and Vietnamese soldiers in the Vietnamese civil war?.and most guerilla armies actually. Oh, and there are innumerable accounts of women disguising themselves as men and fighting.

Canada does as well, but like I said, we've basically given up on the idea of having a 50% male 50% female infantry. There just aren't enough women volunteering, and that's basically true of the other countries you've mentioned.
Well, yeah. I mean, thousands of years of rigidly enforced gender roles don?t up and disappear because of a few decades of social change. This really has less to do with ?can a woman fight if she sets her mind to it? as it does ?are women culturally inclined to fight?.

That?s all well and good, but those MPs, Humvee gunners and convoy drivers aren?t dedicated combat troops, and for good reason.
With modern guerilla warfare the way it is, the distinction between fighting troops and non-fighting troops is blurring every day.

No other female personnel present among Naboo?s ground forces save the Queen?s bodyguard?
At least one of the fighter pilots was a woman. An old woman with a gruff voice, but a woman none the less.
Besides, have you really checked? I doubt that a man and woman in full combat gear would look so different that you could tell by a causal glance.

Women simply aren?t very well suited for military duties in general. Generally speaking, they suffer psychological trauma at a higher rate than men, their capacity for the aggression necessary for a soldier is lower, they require more provocation to behave in a sufficiently aggressive manner in combat, and tend to fear the consequences of aggressive behaviour, they?re smaller and weaker, and so can carry less equipment, ammunition, weapons and body armour and for shorter periods, their skeletal structure is weaker, and more prone to breaking, their hearing is more easily damaged by gunfire, they suffer more medical emergencies than men, they frequently drain the pool of available manpower by becoming pregnant, and their presence in mixed units has a detrimental effect on unit cohesion and discipline.
Of course, a robot would theoretically have a huge advantage over any human, male or female, in all the above categories. So, if you think about it, doesn?t the presence of commonplace machinery make many of issues far less valid?
(I think I would disagree with the importance or any inequalities of many of these, but that would take a lot of effort, and some information that I don?t know so I don?t think I would argue on them.)

Of course, whether or not women can fight is hardly relevant or not as whether a fictional culture at one point in time made it common for women to fight.

Now, technically a lack of evidence is neither for or against, but considering the only woman we have seen amongst the neo-crusaders was one sentry, I don?t think that they were common.

 

Yes, really, in a land of Star Wars you're going to assume the pharmacology is going to allow women to be able to have just as powerful strength as a man.

 

The point I was making w/ Jessica Lynch, the MPs, and all the others is that, just because they're not infantry doesn't mean they don't do combat. There are a ton of infantry units that do patrols while supply convoys are fighting for their lives, literally. If there was truly an issue of "women shouldn't be in combat," there wouldn't be a single female soldier, airman, sailor, or Marine on the ground in Iraq. Jut because they're aren't infantry doesn't mean they aren't warriors.

Your last paragraph there, BTW, is some of the broadest, most sexist things I've ever heard. Generalizing like that will nearly always give you a false view. I served with a little firecracker of a woman, 4'10" and she was one of the most KATN soldiers - of either sex - that I met in 3 years. She was also my unit's M-60 machine gunner. You can generalize things like you did, but it's not a picture of reality. I would challenge you to approach any female Marine - any job, any time - and tell her her aggressions are right to be warrior, that she's weaker in any sense, and that her presence is a detriment to her unit. I'm about 90% certain you'll be swallowing your teeth pretty quickly...

 

Has it perhaps occurred to you that these somewhat extra-ordinary examples of female bodyguards, noblewoman trained to defend their homes, warleaders and lone individuals disguising themselves as men might not be proof positive that a nomadic culture would employ a large number of its women as frontline combat troops? Think of the Mongols. They did have some female warriors present on the battlefield as I understand it, but never a very large number, which is in keeping with what we?ve seen of the Neo-Crusader Mandalorians.

I?m afraid that ?gender roles? are a bit more hard-coded in the male and female psyche than many people would like to believe, but then again, the differences of behaviour between human men and women in the GFFA don?t appear to have changed demonstrably from what we would see on Earth, even after some 20,000 years.

Obviously female personnel should remain stateside then.

You?ll note I said ?ground forces?.

I think I?ve watched the film often enough, yes.

I imagine a soldier would tell you differently.

No, not really. One thing that?s rather interesting to note is that in the British Army?s latest study dealing with the possibility of integrating women in the combat arms, after determining that less than 1% of women would make physically suitable soldiers, essentially concluded that even this was not so great an obstacle as the inherent problems of attempting to maintain unit cohesion in mixed groups.

I?d have to disagree. Fictional or not, we?re still dealing with recognizably human behaviour, and our own historical experience can serve as a useful measure by which to judge.

 

Generalization is a slippery slope because it doesn't take into account personalities and culture. Our culture's defined gender roles and categorization of women as "not as strong/fast/physically capable as men" have basically made the 1% of women who are physically resilient, strong, capable, and aggressive the exception as opposed to the rule. Our culture (sadly) is not Mando. Or Amazon. Or Celtic. Or any other with a proud history of strong, capable females. Imagine if the inverse were true, as is the case with Mandalorians, wherein the physically powerful, aggressive, rip-your-balls-off-if-you-mess-with-me female characteristics were fostered and developed into those of perfectly functional and equal warrior, instead of suppressed and labeled as "butch" or "dyke-ish" as they are in our culture.

What if the majority of women in our society were like those in some of the videos linked to below?:

Look at some of these videos, particularly the ones of Eva T and the "Nasty Girls". (W/F Safe)

Many men would be quite challenged (and, sadly, threatened) by what some of the top Crossfit girls are physically capable of. Give those physical specimens some solid combat training, and they could watch my back any day.

 

Taking into account personalities and culture is irrelevant. The average woman's upper body strength is not a social construct.