Mara : Is she tainted by the Dark Side

Anywho what it did say about mara was,

"Mara Jade walked a thin line between the Light Side and the Dark Side. Although she killed she didn't kill out of malice"-darkside sourcebook, pg 99.

The first sentence which is a paraphrase of what various definitions of tainted mean.

I would put the specific sentences where tainted, is called "grey" if I could find them, but I can't remember what I was reading a few weeks ago, . Might have been somewhere in the POTJ sourcebook, but I'm not sure.

 

But when the emperor died, she still killed people that she didn't when she was in the Empire's service, mainly for sport, and she knows it was wrong.

I know you're probably thinking " oh, there's goes another dang gusher on her little 'Mara is perfection, I don't believe this' tirade". But as a Mara fan who DOES admit she has faults (without even sighing) I would like to know when she killed people for sport, since I haven't heard THAT one before...

Her admirers can't wish away her sullied past, and neither can her creator.

Well, of course not! Her past is what makes her so interesting! One of the big reasons I liked her is because her past was so dark and mysterious.

On topic I do think Mara was tainted. Someone whose master was Palpy couldn't possibly keep from being tainted. But I don't think she was a darksider, because if she was she would not have asked Luke to keep C'baoth from, well, taking her in, you might say. Also, if she were a darksider she would have killed Luke right away in the Mrkyr forest instead of waiting to listen to what he had to say about R2...

 

Jedi Ben: I think you misunderstood me. It was not my objective to damn Luke, or to say that Mara (as the Hand) was all okay, for that matter. I have nothing against Luke, he's one of my topmost favorite characters. The thing is, he did turn to the Dark Side in DE, those are the plain facts, and I merely attempted to explain the cause and nature of his "darksideness", not to condemn him.

The overcoming of an ill past makes for an interesting character, even if NJO has not really tapped the potnetial of the character.

Both characters made mistakes, they recognised them, overcame them and became better for them,

Exactly.

so be so competitive about it?

I didn't mean to be. My objective was not to say that Mara was better (as a person) and Luke was worse, I just tried to analyze the differences between their respective situations. I think both characters did what they honestly thought was best, both ended up doing things that weren't good/right, and both recognized/overcame their mistakes, like you said. It's not my intent to condemn either of them.

Everyone: Please excuse me if I reply to the other posts later, I won't be on the computer for long today since I have a bad headache. I like, and agree with, DeJade_Vu's above post.

 

Redemption...

 

DEVI: The thing is, he did turn to the Dark Side in DE, those are the plain facts, and I merely attempted to explain the cause and nature of his "darksideness", not to condemn him.

I disagree that Luke went to the darkside in DARK EMPIRE. Yes, he learned about the dark and read the books about the dark to try to destroy the dark from within, but while on Byss he didn't kill innocents; he didn't torture folks; and he didn't destroy. He worked undercover to try to help the Alliance in any way he could. He caused Imperial ships to malfunction; he sent Imperial codes to the Alliance; he tried to hinder the Emperor's plans as much as possible. He also killed the Emperor's clones. Just being WITH the Emperor doesn't make Luke a darksider.

I've come to the conclusion that KEVIN J. ANDERSON did Luke a huge disservice when he included the brief reference to DARK EMPIRE. He did it in such a way that no one really knew what went on in DARK EMPIRE. Fans and authors who didn't actually read the comic book ran with the idea that Luke must have done evil deeds since he went to Byss to 'serve' the Emperor. That's NOT really a fact. He pretended to serve the Emperor. There's a big difference. He really went to try to save the galaxy from the evil of the the 'reborn' Palpatine.

 

I disagree that Luke went to the darkside in DARK EMPIRE. Yes, he learned about the dark and read the books about the dark to try to destroy the dark from within, but while on Byss he didn't kill innocents; he didn't torture folks; and he didn't destroy. He worked undercover to try to help the Alliance in any way he could. He caused Imperial ships to malfunction; he sent Imperial codes to the Alliance; he tried to hinder the Emperor's plans as much as possible. He also killed the Emperor's clones. Just being WITH the Emperor doesn't make Luke a darksider.

I've come to the conclusion that KEVIN J. ANDERSON did Luke a huge disservice when he included the brief reference to DARK EMPIRE. He did it in such a way that no one really knew what went on in DARK EMPIRE. Fans and authors who didn't actually read the comic book ran with the idea that Luke must have done evil deeds since he went to Byss to 'serve' the Emperor. That's NOT really a fact. He pretended to serve the Emperor. There's a big difference. He really went to try to save the galaxy from the evil of the the 'reborn' Palpatine.

Then why did Leia had to redeem him?

OWLC

 

OBIWANS_LOVE_CHILD: Then why did Leia had to redeem him?

I don't think Leia really 'redeemed' him. She just help him break away from the state of dark despair he was in. After he killed the Emperor's clones, one survived and defeated Luke in lightsaber combat. After that happened, Luke was in a state of despair because he had failed in trying to defeat the Emperor and save the galaxy. He feared he couldn't get away from the Emperor and WOULD be his dark servant.

Leia gave him hope that he could get away from the Emperor and defeat him, and that there was hope for the future and the Jedi.
With Leia's help, he defeated the Emperor's force storms and the two of them escaped.
But Luke didn't commit dark or evil acts while with the Emperor, so he didn't fall to the darkside.

 

Luke went to the dark side in Dark Empire because not only does the story say he did, within the story and the backhistory essay included with it, so does the Dark Empire sourcebook, the action figure, and later sourcebooks. This is written fact...

According to ROTJ novel, he had been tainted with elements of the darkside during that period of time(using force choke and anger to strike his father's arm off). As was stated by yoda once you start down that dark path will it forever dominate your destiny. Luke had started down that dark path even in ROTJ, until it lead to him going to the darkside according to the information in Dark Empire, the included essay, and later source material.

You don't like it? Take it up with Veitch, LFL and the other writers.

 

Her admirers can't wish away her sullied past, and neither can her creator.

To be honest if she didn't have a dark past I'd loose a lot of my interest in her. I like that she's 'grey'. Brings more spice to the character. Perfect characters are just boring, IMHO.

 

VALIENTOAccording to ROTJ novel, he had been tainted with elements of the darkside during that period of time(using force choke and anger to strike his father's arm off).

So you believe that one minute of doing something in anger without even thinking about what you're doing is enough to make you a darksider for life? If that's the case, NONE of the Jedi could claim to be lightsiders. Obi-wan attacked Darth Maul in anger after he killed Qui-gon. Do you think of Obi-wan as a darksider?

I don't believe that. Jedi are human beings as well as Jedi knights. All human beings experience darkside emotions now and then, it's part of being human. Luke attacked Vader in anger and fear in reaction to Vader's threat against his sister in RETURN OF THE JEDI. He wasn't even thinking, and the attack lasted about a minute or two. When he realized what he was doing, he stopped immediately and threw away his lightsaber. I don't believe he became a darksider through that one reaction.

As for the guards, he just disabled momentarily so he could pass. He didn't kill them or even injure them. He was weaponless at the time and they had those very large axe things.

As was stated by yoda once you start down that dark path will it forever dominate your destiny.

I would hope it would be a little harder to become a darksider than to act in anger for about a minute of one's life. When I think of Yoda's comment, I think of it as referring to concious choice to follow the dark path and to do it as a matter of habit, not a one minute mistake.

Anger is a nomal human emotion. If a Jedi can NEVER get angry then I doubt that there could be any lightside Jedi. Certainly Jacen, Mara, Jaina, Kyp, Corran, Obi-wan, Kam, Yoda, and just about every other Jedi are then forever doomed to be darksiders.

VALIENTO: Luke had started down that dark path even in ROTJ, until it lead to him going to the darkside according to the information in Dark Empire, the included essay, and later source material.

I didn't read DARK EMPIRE or the notes that go with it as you did. Luke learned about the dark to try to destroy it from within. Did he kill anyone while he was there? NO! Did he destroy any worlds? NO! DId he help destroy any ships? Only Imperial ones. How does that make him a darksider?

I agree that later source material sometimes mention Luke and the Darkside, and even later books. That's why I hate that DARK EMPIRE was added to the continuity of the novels. It shouldn't have been. None of the other comic books were. This happened because people and authors who didn't even read DARK EMPIRE assumed that Luke had done evil deeds while on Byss.

And it's too late now to take it up with Veitch and Lucasfilm. The terrible damage to Luke's characterizations caused by that comic book has already been done.

 

As I have stated before, being tainted doesn't make you a darksider. Over time being tainted does lead you to the dark side.

According to the stories Luke's repeated tainted actions took him over to the darkside, but he was redeemed by the actions of his sister and nephew.

I never said luke was a darksider in ROTJ, just that he had used tainted actions. Those are elements of starting down the dark path, but not quite in the darkside yet. As Yoda stated, Fear, Anger, Agression the darkside are these. Luke had used all 3, he hadn't gone to the darkside yet, but he had used the darkside. He had been tainted. Tainting effects one's destiny, as the essay in Dark Empire points out, it finally did lead to him going to the darkside but only for a short while, before he was redeemed, and never followed that path again.

When luke chokes the guards, the book points that there was a darkness in luke, one that he had to overcome or it would control him. Other sourcebooks say that action is a dark action. Sure one time use isn't going to put you to the darkside, but it does taint someone ever so little. If done repeatively they become so tainted that they ultimately fall to the darkside.

"None of the other comic books were. This happened because people and authors who didn't even read DARK EMPIRE assumed that Luke had done evil deeds while on Byss."

This is incredibly false, according to WEG the dark horse comics were part of continuity, even marvel to some degree, as they refrenced them whenever possible.

Secrets of shadows of the empire, says that while some things in marvel "may seem to appear to be AU, LFL still had them listed in their canon bible timeline."

They never flat out said it was AU but to some people it may have seemed to be AU. Yet they still included in their overall timeline.

Since you didn't read Dark Empire your not awhare that Luke uses force choke on han, as well a doing other dark things.

 

It wasn't torture Val.

Han breaks away from a Sentinel, attacks Luke and gets lifted off the ground briefly.

The whole idea in DE is that Luke has to permit lesser evils in order to defeat the greater evil that is Palpatine. The notes you refer to in DE also emphasise that Luke is doing everything possible to cripple the Imperial war machine from within, as Palpatine is trying all he can to seduce Luke to the dark side; to make his false promise of service a true one.

However, I've already forseen how this discussion will end.

Devi, thanks for the reply and the clarification.

My own view is that I don't think the two can be compared that well really, that they are too distinct, but, in the end...

It's only Star Wars!

Jedi Ben

 

"None of the other comic books were. This happened because people and authors who didn't even read DARK EMPIRE assumed that Luke had done evil deeds while on Byss."

What about the X wing comics that provided a backhistory for for the novels? Or the TotJ era comics that provided background for Jedi Academy trilogy? Of course the comics are a part of continuity

 

"The whole idea in DE is that Luke has to permit lesser evils in order to defeat the greater evil that is Palpatine. The notes you refer to in DE also emphasise that Luke is doing everything possible to cripple the Imperial war machine from within, as Palpatine is trying all he can to seduce Luke to the dark side; to make his false promise of service a true one.

However, I've already forseen how this discussion will end."

Which as TOTJ, and Dark Empire backhistory points out, to try to combat evil by using evil only causes the person using evil to become evil. He might destroy the master, only to become the new master.

 

I didn't read Dark Empire - but I have the audio book versions and He DID use the Force Choke on Han.


Anyway


Back to the real topic - Mara is tainted - yes she is. That is her flaw. Was she a darksider? Well, if she was or had been, I think someone pointed out that she would have killed Luke.

 

SKYWALKER'S SON:I didn't read DARK EMPIRE or the notes that go with it as you did. Luke learned about the dark to try to destroy it from within. Did he kill anyone while he was there? NO! Did he destroy any worlds? NO! DId he help destroy any ships? Only Imperial ones. How does that make him a darksider?

VALIENTO: Since you didn't read Dark Empire your not awhare that Luke uses force choke on han, as well a doing other dark things.

I apologize. I didn't explain myself well. I DID read DARK EMPIRE and the notes that go with it. I just didn't see in them what you saw. In other words, "I didn't read DARK EMPIRE the the way you did". I didn't see Luke as a Darksider.

Luke did a few questionable things while on Byss yes, but nothing really evil. He was afraid for Han and Leia and wanted them to leave Byss. He even used a dark skill to pretend that he went with them so they would leave and be safe. But a few not-so-good actions don't make one evil.

VALIENTO: Sure one time use isn't going to put you to the darkside, but it does taint someone ever so little. If done repeatively they become so tainted that they ultimately fall to the darkside.

I agree. Think about the books that came right before DARK EMPIRE. They were the THRAWN TRILOGY books and those events happened mere weeks before DARK EMPIRE. Luke was about as lightside as a Jedi could get in in the THRAWN TRILOGY. How do you see him as tainted and moving ultimately toward the dark there or in COURTSHIP OF PRINCESS LEIA? He wasn't.

VALIENTO: This is incredibly false, according to WEG the dark horse comics were part of continuity, even marvel to some degree, as they refrenced them whenever possible.

Maybe the X-wing books referenced the Dark horse comics, but for the most part, the only one that is continuously referenced is DARK EMPIRE, and I think it has really hurt Luke Skywalker and his characterizations. If any other comic book events were used, they were so unimportant and made so little impact that I don't even remember them. No other comic book has so damaged a STAR WARS character as DARK EMPIRE has damaged the characterizations of Luke Skywalker.

 

I thought this thread was about Mara.

OWLC

 

"I didn't explain myself well. I DID read DARK EMPIRE and the notes that go with it. I just didn't see in them what you saw. In other words, "I didn't read DARK EMPIRE the the way you did". I didn't see Luke as a Darksider."

First off the essay, says that Luke was conquering the dark side from within. From within what? "The Dark side".

Now you mentioned this earlier:

"I've come to the conclusion that KEVIN J. ANDERSON did Luke a huge disservice when he included the brief reference to DARK EMPIRE. He did it in such a way that no one really knew what went on in DARK EMPIRE. Fans and authors who didn't actually read the comic book ran with the idea that Luke must have done evil deeds since he went to Byss to 'serve' the Emperor. That's NOT really a fact. He pretended to serve the Emperor. There's a big difference. He really went to try to save the galaxy from the evil of the the 'reborn' Palpatine."

I would also like to point out it wasn't KJA words in KJA, nove but collaberation of words between veitch and KJA, according to their interviews in galaxy magazine. If you have a problem with it take it up with them both.


Both authors collaborations was a fight of darkside with darkside.

"I agree. Think about the books that came right before DARK EMPIRE. They were the THRAWN TRILOGY books and those events happened mere weeks before DARK EMPIRE. Luke was about as lightside as a Jedi could get in in the THRAWN TRILOGY. How do you see him as tainted and moving ultimately toward the dark there or in COURTSHIP OF PRINCESS LEIA? He wasn't."

You are forgetting that there are hundreds of stories that we aren't given between times. Actually to correct you dark empire didn't occur a few weeks after TTT, but actually 1 year after TTT. This was a change brought on because of isard's revenge taking place directly after TTT. We also don't know how many times he used tainted acts in the course of stories we aren't given.

"Maybe the X-wing books referenced the Dark horse comics, but for the most part, the only one that is continuously referenced is DARK EMPIRE, and I think it has really hurt Luke Skywalker and his characterizations. If any other comic book events were used, they were so unimportant and made so little impact that I don't even remember them."

Then you just don't know everything about the comics. Veitch and KJA collabations created a triumvirate of material, dark empire, TOTJ, and JAT, KJA gave info to Veitch which he used for parts of dark empire. Stuff Veitch gave to KJA to write into his novel, effected the course of his novel. Both decided to use backhistory in both stories about Ulic and Exar Kun, Ulic being veitches character, and Kun being KJA character. Both decided to tie both histories together, and thus was the basis for the TOTJ series history which they wrote later as the backbone to dark empire and JAT stories.

KJA refrenced the comics because it was LFL's policy that all sources are tied together because idea of a continuious history of the star wars galaxy over the course of many years and millenia. Thus the two worked together to fit it together the way that they wanted it to, and to follow LFL's policy of the time, a policy that is still in effect by the way.

 

It's written pretty explicitly that Luke tried to defeat the Emperor by going to the Dark Side. He failed. He said "I have to know what my father went through." It wasn't just some charade, he got sucked in. That was the whole reason they made the Ulic Quel-Droma back story in TOTJ. To make a historical precedent for what Luke did in Dark Empire.

 

"Leia help me, I've gone to far into the darkside, I found knowledge there, all the dark things father knew so well the ability to control others to destroy others, if I so choose. Ben warned me, Yoda warned.. "once you start down that dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny" But I had to do it leia, I had to know my father. I had to know why he chose the darkside.

"And now you know what happend to your father, it's time to come home luke."

The powers of control and destruction weren't the only tings I found in the Dark Side, I also found great isolation and fear. These are the feelings my father felt... The feelings even you feel, in your moments of darkest triumph.

Veitch himself through luke even explicitly states that luke had fallen to the darkside. You can't argue that he didn't when both KJA, and Veitch wrote it into the plot, that he did, as they were collaborating on the story.

 

While, I agree that Luke fell to the Dark Side, I feel i should point out hat his fall was differnt from most. Luke had given into despair . At the end of the audio drama, I felt that Luke was going to join the Emperor simply because there was no choice. Resistance was futile. It was Leia that brought him out of that. She him through the murky shroud of desperation.

 

JEDI LIZ: Mara is tainted - yes she is. That is her flaw. Was she a darksider? Well, if she was or had been, I think someone pointed out that she would have killed Luke.

Okay...so as I understand it, folks are willing to believe that Mara was only tainted...not a darksider even though she served the Emperor for many years and killed many in his service. However, Luke Skywalker, who was on Byss for what? Maybe a month at most, but didn't kill anyone while there, didn't serve the Emperor, and didn't destroy anything except Imperial property as he was trying to help the Alliance from inside Imperial headquarters(an undercover agent, as it were), IS a darksider.

Sorry, but I find that rather illogical. Someone said the difference was that Mara didn't go willingly, but Luke did, but that doesn't work either. Luke never really served the Emperor, he only pretended to do so, so he didn't 'serve willingly'. He went of his own free will to bring down Palpatine, not to join him.

As for THE THRAWN TRILOGY now being a year before DARK EMPIRE instead of a few weeks before, it wasn't that way according to DARK EMPIRE or the DARK EMPIRE sourcebook. Even if there is a year's difference, where's the proof that Luke was dark between THE THRAWN TRILOGY and DARK EMPIRE?

I can agree that Luke was in a state of dark despair in DARK EMPIRE, but I disagree that he was evil. There is certainly a huge difference between Luke and Vader or Luke and Palpatine, and a huge difference even between Luke and Kyp. Jacen and Jaina did more darkside things than Luke ever did. So, I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree about Luke being a true darksider.

I enjoyed the lively discussion, but I guess I've said all there is to say so I'm off and you can all go back to your discussion about Mara.

 

I don't know if it explicitly stated that Luke killed many people, but the World Devastators obviously did. And Luke was in charge of those, so by proxy Luke oversaw the killing of a bunch of people. But Luke also killed millions using the light side by destroying the Death Star.

 

"Okay...so as I understand it, folks are willing to believe that Mara was only tainted...not a darksider even though she served the Emperor for many years and killed many in his service."

The difference is according to the story in of dark empire, and the various spin off collaborations between veitch and KJA, Luke did go to the darkside. He did not only gave into despair, but according to the Dark Empire sourcebook, he gave into hate and anger as well. He was even at the point of taking Leia to the emperor, so that the emperor could brain wash her. Luke even turned on her with his lighsaber until she convinced him to leave the darkside. The emperor whole job was to try to make him a darksider. Palpatine's dream was to make the skywalkers a dynasty of nobles with him in control. At the last part of the book, according to the story Palpatine had broken luke he was in the darkside, it took the loyalty of his sister to break luke from the darkside as is stated in the story.

The stories of mara on the other say that palpatine never tried to corrupt her to the darkside, yet wanted to make her just an assasin he could send out when he needed someone killed, much like a U.S. Sniper. She was wasn't light, but she wasn't dark either according to the stories and sourcebooks.

On another note the rebels had assasins or used heroes to assasinate imperial leaders, and officers as well, including trying to kill vader many times. They were doing no different than what Mara did for sake of the government that she worked for. Rebels were not even the valid government of the time, so everything they did was completely illegal.

I take all the official stories into account, the way LFL says them to be, as LFL states that they are canon. Maybe somethings may seem illogical to you, but lfl writes the stories and to them this is how it works.


"As for THE THRAWN TRILOGY now being a year before DARK EMPIRE instead of a few weeks before, it wasn't that way according to DARK EMPIRE or the DARK EMPIRE sourcebook. Even if there is a year's difference, where's the proof that Luke was dark between THE THRAWN TRILOGY and DARK EMPIRE?"

He wasn't dark per se, but the essay and dark empire sourcebook say, and I quote essay for convience: "At times it seemed he was even on the verge of following the selfish and willful road that leads to the Dark Side, in which vast potentials of Jedi power are directed toward the triumph of the will, self-aggrandizement, and the enslavenment of the many by the few..."

As for when he fought his father?

"Luke fought with frency that took him to the very edge of victory and madness... Luke suddenly understood that if he gave another inch to his hatred, he would belong to the Dark Side forever."

Yet, luke fell into his hatred, anger, and despair later on, during Dark Empire at that point he finally had crossed over. But luckily leia convinced him to come back to the light.

 

I'll just respond to a post and then I AM leaving.

SKAWOOKIE: I don't know if it explicitly stated that Luke killed many people, but the World Devastators obviously did. And Luke was in charge of those, so by proxy Luke oversaw the killing of a bunch of people.

Luke caused those Devastators to malfunction so they exploded and were destroyed. Someone even commented that you would think the person in charge wanted to lose. Which, of course, is true. Luke DID want to lose. He wanted the Imperials to lose.

But Luke also killed millions using the light side by destroying the Death Star.

Do we know how many were aboard the Death Star? Still, it really makes no difference as it was a weapon of war and this was a defensive action. It was a case of kill or be killed.

For me, Luke Skywalker never went completely dark in DARK EMPIRE. He came close and he was certainly in a darkness of despair, I'll grant you that. However, I don't believe he was ever evil. You can believe what you wish. Personally, I would have preferred it if DARK EMPIRE would never have been written. It was a dumb story anyway. Dead characters should remain dead. It doesn't make much sense that Palpatine could put himself into a clone while falling down a reactor shaft lightyears away. DARK EMPIRE completely reversed RETURN OF THE JEDI too. I'm surprised anyone ever approved it.

AND, if DARK EMPIRE HAD to be included in the continuity of the books, it should have been written as a novel. The events in it and the decisions by Luke were too important to be put into a comic book where little characterization and explanation of motivations take place. AND few people can even find the comic book to read it. There are people who still don't know it exits. I think including it in the continuity was a bad idea.