Mara Jade and Emperor Palpatine

AG88:
Since the Jedi become one with the Force when they die, if there was no darkside of the Force wouldn?t they notice that the philosophy they had been spouting for decades was flawed? I would think they might pass on that information when they come back to talk to the living.

That's a great point 88.

I guess I would say that perhaps it's still a matter of interpretation for the deceased. Mayhaps Force-spirits haven't "fully" "integrated" into the Force enough to "know" it's "true" "essence" until they have reached that point of "no-return" whereupon they can no longer communicate with the living.

But if you look at the NJO it is perhaps interesting to note that Anakin Skywalker is still communicating with the living a good 30 or so odd years after his death, so mayhaps his "integration" into the Force has taken longer than Ben or Yoda.

Personally though, my theory on this is that certain Force-user's become "attached" to events or people and either have to or can "watch" over them from "beyond the grave" to see how things work out or to help bring something to fruition. I suspect that Qui-Gon's appearance in AOTC and the Clone Wars cartoon relates to this idea.

 

dp4m: Thank you.

 

Baiting, flaming and threats of violence.

 

Basically the EU gets red carpet treatment, and it's fans, while the movie puritsts (actual SW movie fans) get banned for the slightest offense. They really aren't allowed to even defend the movies without being insulted, and when they say anything in defense, they are told to "lighten up".

TF. You say you wonder why "purists" are banned while EU fans apparentally are not (like dp4m said, do you seriously believe that?), then you make a post like the one above! [face_exasperated_sigh]

Believe me, I agree with you that ROBAL_KRAHL's views are...umm, unusual, but you don't have to insult him up and down the board to put that point across. Yeah, yeah, I know your sense of humor is supposed to warmly and wittily sarcastic, but it's not exactly coming off that way...

 

Basically the EU gets red carpet treatment, and it's fans, while the movie puritsts (actual SW movie fans) get banned for the slightest offense. They really aren't allowed to even defend the movies without being insulted, and when they say anything in defense, they are told to "lighten up".

In my experience, it's the films that get the red carpet treatment (as they rightly should), and EU fans get flamed for any mention of EU material outside the EU forums. EU fans are the ones told to "lighten up" when they try to defend the EU. I haven't seen any of these supposed "bans for the slightest offence" of movie fans. If you break the rules, you get banned. Simple as that. Have you seen any bashing of the Star Wars films around here? I certainly haven't. They're almost sancrosanct, and they will remain that way here at the JC.

By the way, Robal_Krahl is merely stating his opinion. You may not agree with it, but he has a right to his opinion and also a right not to be persecuted for holding that opinion. You may think that his opinion's a complete load of twonk. Fair enough. You also have the right to think and hold that opinion. However, you don't need to attack him like you just did in that post.

I_F

 

nm

 

Boy have we gotten way off topic. Just as a reminder, this is the original question:

I have a question concerning Mara Jade and Emperor Palpatine. Why did Palpatine send Mara Jade to Jabba?s palace to kill Luke Skywalker when he wants Luke to eliminate Darth Vader and become his new apprentice?

JL

 

Tiershon_Fett, I realize that you and Robal_Krahl have a very different view of the movies and EU, but do you really think the best way to express your opinion is by lacing it with vitriol and hateful personal attacks against the man? It is no wonder that there is such a big divide between the fans of the movies and EU.

Your post was totally uncalled for. I think you owe the man an apology, not for your Star Wars viewpoint but for publicly saying he should be beaten and then calling him derogatory terms such as Eudiot, Lamebutt, a nut and weirdo.

AK

 

I have a question concerning Mara Jade and Emperor Palpatine. Why did Palpatine send Mara Jade to Jabba?s palace to kill Luke Skywalker when he wants Luke to eliminate Darth Vader and become his new apprentice?

Either way, Luke was his biggest threat. I think he did it to give himself two options. If Mara killed him, good. He's gone, out of his life, time to deal with the politicos on Coruscant. If Mara failed (which, knowing the kid was a Jedi, was a possibility), then he had another plan in place to lure Luke to the darkside to replace Anakin. He would have had a strong, mobile Force user by his side in either scenario, so he wins both ways.

I_F

 

I wonder...according to some *cough* rogue_wookiee *cough* we're supposed to think Mara was set up as being one of the most powerful Jedi in the universe in TTT, because C'baoth could sense her, or something. I wonder why, then, that Mara couldn't sense Leia's labor pains while she was having Jacen and Jaina.

Perhaps it was because Leia, despite not being a fully-trained Jedi, had the strength to not broadcast her labor pains to the whole galaxy as Mara did with Ben, even though Mara was supposedly a Jedi master at the time.

 

Perhaps it was because Leia, despite not being a fully-trained Jedi, had the strength to not broadcast her labor pains to the whole galaxy as Mara did with Ben, even though Mara was supposedly a Jedi master at the time.

Maybe, or perhaps Leia had an epidural administered while Mara opted for natural child birth. From personal experience I will tell you there is a BIG difference between the two when it comes to the pain level one must endure. Heck, Mara may have needed an Episiotomy. Don't get me started on this subject Shelley!

AG88

 

ISkippedHistoryClass

Padme is a pacifist. SHE WAS RIGHT.

So was Switzerland, and they still got bombed, didn't they?

Edited some stuff.

 

Maybe, or perhaps Leia had an epidural administered

No she didn't.

while Mara opted for natural child birth. From personal experience I will tell you there is a BIG difference between the two when it comes to the pain level one must endure.

I don't doubt it. One of my friends had an epidural and it still didn't take away all the pain. By the way, she was giving birth to twins.

 

Shelley, we should stop talking about this. We are grossing out the adolescent boys!

AG88

 

Yeah...geez.

 

No she isn't. She actually brings up a very good point and it shows another one of Mara's faults. No need to change the subject cause another of Mara's weakness and Leia's strengths are being shown. It just goes to show Mara's completely lack of control and unfitness of the title of Jedi Master. Mara had a disease, so what. Leia has been in far more pain and experience far more torture then Mara has and has a level of control that Mara will never reach. Mara can't even see the line in the far distance where Leia is.

 

She actually brings up a very good point and it shows another one of Mara's faults. No need to change the subject cause another of Mara's weakness and Leia's strengths are being shown.

Fair enough Neostar. I'll tell you what. When you or Shelley squeeze out a couple babies let me know and we can compare notes.

AG88

 

Funny that when people try to prove Mara's character faults, they point to Leia, the person with the strongest character in all of Star Wars except for maybe Luke. Ridiculous.

 

"When [NeoStar9] or Shelley squeeze out a couple babies let me know and we can compare notes."

I'm really, really hoping NeoStar isn't going to be "squeezing out any babies" in his lifetime.

 

It just goes to show Mara's completely lack of control and unfitness of the title of Jedi Master. Mara had a disease, so what. Leia has been in far more pain and experience far more torture then Mara has and has a level of control that Mara will never reach. Mara can't even see the line in the far distance where Leia is.

couldnt their upbringing be a result of this? Sure, Mara was trained as an assassin and a covert operative... but Leia was trained from birth to be a politician.
Politicians are trained to hide their emotions, which is what Leia is good at doing. She has to be; she's been President of the New Republic for quite a few years, and was a Senator of Alderaan. She opposed the Empire's views, but had to appear as if she didn't.
I'd say she had alot of practice at shielding her emotions and pain, but Mara has not. Mara likes to keep people at arm's length, so she doesnt lose control. She even has a temper to boot.

Just because Mara cannot control pain during childbirth does not take away from the fact that she has thwe character for being a Jedi Master. She wants to do the right thing, and protect those who cannot protect themselves. Shouldn't that be what a Jedi Master is all about? Protecting those who need it?

 

grad:

Fair enough Neostar. I'll tell you what. When you or Shelley squeeze out a couple babies let me know and we can compare notes.

LOL! Well, that's physiologically impossible for Neo, and while it's possible for me, it is most certainly not desirable.

Suzuki:

Funny that when people try to prove Mara's character faults, they point to Leia, the person with the strongest character in all of Star Wars except for maybe Luke.

Not according to the books. The books won't shut up about Mara's incredible strength and bravery, and the books made her a Jedi master. Meanwhile Leia being a fully trained Jedi is ignored and discounted, other characters freely insult her, and the books can't remind us enough about how she is "half-trained and uncertain in the Force." As if that's not enough, they even take swipes at her looks and have her wondering if Han loves her as much as Luke loves Mara.

In the books, Mara is held up as an ideal of strength and courage, as well as beauty and wifehood/motherhood/Jedihood, that all the other characters, particularly Leia, should aspire to.

couldnt their upbringing be a result of this? Sure, Mara was trained as an assassin and a covert operative... but Leia was trained from birth to be a politician.

That depends on which whitewashing of Mara's past/attempt to absolve her of all wrongdoing we're supposed to believe. In one version, we're supposed to think Palpatine controlled her completely and made her do his will without regret or question, and that she was not evil because she never felt hate or something like that. In another version, we're supposed to think she was moral and upstanding and sensitive enough to be upset when innocents were killed on her missions.

So if we believe the first version, then it doesn't make sense that she wouldn't be trained in controlling/hiding her emotions. However, the second version doesn't make much sense either, because one of the excuses given for the way she blew off Anakin's death was that she doesn't wear her emotions on her sleeve, that she hides them and has had a hard time shaking off Palpy's control, etc.

Politicians are trained to hide their emotions, which is what Leia is good at doing. She has to be; she's been President of the New Republic for quite a few years,

She wasn't back when she was in labor with Jacen and Jaina.

and was a Senator of Alderaan. She opposed the Empire's views, but had to appear as if she didn't. I'd say she had alot of practice at shielding her emotions and pain, but Mara has not. Mara likes to keep people at arm's length, so she doesnt lose control. She even has a temper to boot.

Just because Mara cannot control pain during childbirth does not take away from the fact that she has thwe character for being a Jedi Master.

No, it's merely part and parcel of all that makes her unfit to be a Jedi master. Since we're supposed to think Leia isn't a Jedi because she "doesn't have enough control over the Force" or something, it is very weird that Mara, a Jedi master, doesn't have enough control to avoid broadcasting her labor pains all over the galaxy.

She wants to do the right thing,

She does?

and protect those who cannot protect themselves.

Which is why she has the diplomacy of a jackal and runs to attack a planet because it wrapped vines around her latest eponymous vanity ship and says charming things like, "What idiot sent you?" and passes judgement on other people as if her poodoo don't stink.

Besides which, if she truly wants to do that, she doesn't have to be a Jedi master to do it. She isn't qualified to be a Jedi master and she got the title because (internal reason) she married Luke, or (external reason) the EU author who established her as a Jedi master didn't do his homework.

Shouldn't that be what a Jedi Master is all about? Protecting those who need it?

That's part of what a Jedi master is about, but hardly all.

 

Not according to the books. The books won't shut up about Mara's incredible strength and bravery, and the books made her a Jedi master. Meanwhile Leia being a fully trained Jedi is ignored and discounted, other characters freely insult her, and the books can't remind us enough about how she is "half-trained and uncertain in the Force." As if that's not enough, they even take swipes at her looks and have her wondering if Han loves her as much as Luke loves Mara.

In the books, Mara is held up as an ideal of strength and courage, as well as beauty and wifehood/motherhood/Jedihood, that all the other characters, particularly Leia, should aspire to.

If all of that was true, then how could Mara possibly be such a horrible character if she's portrayed as so ideal? How could you possibly have it both ways? It's illogical. If Mara's extremely flawed, then she can't be held up to be the pinnacle of character. If Mara's the pinnacle of character according to the books, she can't be extremely, horribly flawed. Try and find a Golden Means here, please...

 

That is a good point, Suzuki. I always found it interesting that Mara is described as both a Mary Sue and a highly flawed, no-good miscreant at the same time.

I always thought a Mary Sue is a woman who has a flawless character, is mind-numbingly sweet, and has strength and abilities far beyond those of normal women.

Now, I can see calling Mara?s assassin training and self-defense abilities as Mary Sue-ish, but her personality is definitely not perfect. She is hardheaded, surly, irritable, and short-tempered. Her abilities with the Force are often seen as less than perfect. Even Zahn had her struggling with controlling her lightsaber in VOTF. It is obvious that her Force abilities are amateurish compared to Luke?s. So, I don?t think she can be seen as a classic Mary Sue character.


AG88

 

Exactly Shelley. Just why being able to fight with a lightsaber is just one part of being a Jedi and not the end and be all. You can take either version of Mara's background (the original version or the whitewashed version) and its still not an excuse for her. If anyone should be casting their pain all over the galaxy it should be Luke and Leia. People try to say Leia has no control over the force simply cause she doesn't use it all the time, all the while ignoring that she has been writen as a Jedi.

If all of that was true, then how could Mara possibly be such a horrible character if she's portrayed as so ideal? How could you possibly have it both ways? It's illogical. If Mara's extremely flawed, then she can't be held up to be the pinnacle of character. If Mara's the pinnacle of character according to the books, she can't be extremely, horribly flawed. Try and find a Golden Means here, please...

She's horrible cause she is treated like that when it isn't true. They ignore what she does when its clearly in print in order to paint this nice picture of her. Yet at the same time these authors ignore all that Leia has done and been through to paint this horrible picture of her. The very fact that both happen at the same time can't and shouldn't be overlooked. It happns far to much as well. Mara talks nasty to people, down to them, insults, etc and all people do in return is smile or think how she is right when she has no right to do any of it and/or is completely wrong. People against Mara aren't trying to have it both ways. Mara has had it both ways and that is what pisses people off about her and causes a lot of the dislike and hate for her. That she can be this nasty person, unworthy person, bitchy person, non-self controlling, unknowledgeable, unwomanly person and yet characters are still writen to think she's great and that they look up to her which in turn adds to the whole Mara Sueism. If anyone is trying to have it both ways its these authors, Mara herself, and some of Mara's fans that think she can do no wrong or that she is great.

 

If all of that was true, then how could Mara possibly be such a horrible character if she's portrayed as so ideal? How could you possibly have it both ways?

I'm not having it both ways. I see Mara as having plenty of flaws. But what makes her a huge Mary Sue is not that she is in fact perfect and ideal, but that the authors, and the other characters, treat her as though she is.

It's illogical. If Mara's extremely flawed, then she can't be held up to be the pinnacle of character.

Sure she can. The books have been doing for the entire NJO.

That is a good point, Suzuki. I always found it interesting that Mara is described as both a Mary Sue and a highly flawed, no-good miscreant at the same time.

I always thought a Mary Sue is a woman who has a flawless character,

Or is treated as though she does.

is mind-numbingly sweet,

Not always.

and has strength and abilities far beyond those of normal women.

Which Mara is portrayed as having. Or at least, that's what we're supposed to believe; practically every NJO book made sure to remind us of her incredibile strength and abilities in case we forgot it from three paragraphs ago.

Now, I can see calling Mara?s assassin training and self-defense abilities as Mary Sue-ish, but her personality is definitely not perfect. She is hardheaded, surly, irritable, and short-tempered.

Exactly. Which is why it is so baffling that everyone treats her like she is a hunk of honeycomb, just smiling in the face of her snarly tantrums and rudeness. Not to mention, if she is so strong and brave, why does everyone tiptoe around her and treat her as if she is made of glass, fretting over how this or that bad piece of news might affect precious Mara? No one else gets that kind of deference, no matter what happens to them.

Her abilities with the Force are often seen as less than perfect.

Tell that to the NJO authors.

Even Zahn had her struggling with controlling her lightsaber in VOTF. It is obvious that her Force abilities are amateurish compared to Luke?s.

All the more reason why she shouldn't be a Jedi master.

Mara talks nasty to people, down to them, insults, etc and all people do in return is smile or think how she is right when she has no right to do any of it and/or is completely wrong. People against Mara aren't trying to have it both ways. Mara has had it both ways and that is what pisses people off about her and causes a lot of the dislike and hate for her. That she can be this nasty person, unworthy person, bitchy person, non-self controlling, unknowledgeable, unwomanly

Well, I don't know about "unwomanly". Mara is portrayed as having a figure that makes Barbie look like Skipper.

person and yet characters are still writen to think she's great and that they look up to her which in turn adds to the whole Mara Sueism. If anyone is trying to have it both ways its these authors, Mara herself, and some of Mara's fans that think she can do no wrong or that she is great.

Yes, exactly. It's one thing to say Mara is flawed but you love her anyway. It's quite another to say she has no flaws, or treat her like she has no flaws. Other characters screw up and are held accountable for it, sometimes more than they really need to be. Mara is immune to this accountability, and it makes no sense that someone hasn't blown their stack at her by now. Mara keeps getting rewarded for bad behavior, either directly (i.e., acting like a total horse's rump but still getting a mushy moment with Luke, as in "Force Heretic: Reunion") or indirectly (no one calling her on the bad behavior).