Mara Jade and Emperor Palpatine

Luke and Mara never had a romance. They went from hating each other to being madly in love in 12 seconds. It was instant. Because of these many things, I am a purist. I used to love reading SW, before that scourge that is the NJO. I'm done withthe books. TUF was the end of the Skywalker story for me.

And I'm bored waiting for EPIII to come out.


And OWLC, where have you BEEN? I thought you *died*.

 

Ok I guess the Emperor has one hand and the other one is just a illusion IMO Mara would of been a great character if she never married Luke. But its star wars so everyone has to get married well except for Old Republic Jedi. Its just my pathetic little opinion so please don't lose sleep over it hahaha

 

Having the two be married has ruined both of their characters I feel. Both of suffered as a result, especially since the relationship came out of nowhere, they were nothing but friends and even then not that close. Their relationship is built on some force bond which seems to be forced anyway. Which is why they must constantly tell readers how much the two are in love cause they simply can't show it any other way then telling us or having them go off to have sex. There is nothing else to their relationship other then the sex it seems and that is just plain sad all around.

 

TF: I don't think Luke ever really hated Mara. Mara, on the other hand...

Well, at least Ben Skywalker came out of their union. There's something for everyone in anything that happens in SW, hey even Waru resulted in Charlemagne's excellent essay. (when's the next one, Charlemange 19?)

 

Luke and Mara never had a romance. They went from hating each other to being madly in love in 12 seconds.

Pelranius is right Luke never hated Mara. And Mara didn't hate him after TTT. She grew to respect him in TTT and the respect and trust grew over the years and eventually they fell in love. Unlike Callista where Luke saw her and went crazy. And then she dumps him after a few months. Relationships like that almost never work out.

And thanks grad. I do my best.

 

I don't know. I just think Zahn was the only one who "rushed" it, but there were hints dropped here and there after TTT, even during the Callista episodes.

 

Dammit RW. I'm sick of you purposly spreading biased misinformation about characters such as Callista. You even admited to enjoy doing that before. Seriously if you are going to talk about something at least give the full reason, or at least acknowledge it when correct on actually why, story wise it happen. Hell even peopel that dislike Mara, which won't agree with things won't purposly ignore or lie about things to make their point or to praise another character the way you are doing. Luke did not go crazy when he meet Callista. Granted it moved fast but they took the time to get to know each other and it was actually shown and explained how they became close. If you actually had read the novel you would know this instead of simply commenting on things as if you don't or lying about it. Which from my point of view it seems you are doing. Why you may interpret some things differently, we all do, don't simply ignore what is actually writen in the novels. You do this all the damn time and it just makes yourself look all the more foolish and childish when you try to argue a point.

 

Actually, Neo, I think he was referring to the fact that Luke and Callista had some sort of Force sex the first time they "Force" met...

 

Their characters are only ruined by the hand that pens them. And if Skywalker became a feeble pacifist for most of the NJO, from Onslaught, it may not be the writer that types him like that. The decree originates from higher up, who wants to see the Solo kids take centre stage, and backstage everyone else.

 

Actually, Neo, I think he was referring to the fact that Luke and Callista had some sort of Force sex the first time they "Force" met...

That is a really good point Rogue_Wookiee and Suzuki. I forgot all about that. Luke and Callista did have a bit of the Force Epiphany thing going on also, albeit to a far lesser degree than what Luke has with Mara.

AG88

 

Hope everyone had a good Christmas!

That is a really good point Rogue_Wookiee and Suzuki. I forgot all about that. Luke and Callista did have a bit of the Force Epiphany thing going on also, albeit to a far lesser degree than what Luke has with Mara.

That's only because Zahn made his demand of Luke being saddled with Mara, and Luke and Callista's relationship was never allowed to progress. Zahn's demand was why Callista was sent off and her and Luke's relationship retconned. (I'm guessing that's also why Gaeriel was killed off. Mara, you see, can't have competition, in anything. In the NJO, they couldn't kill off Leia, aka Mara's competition for premier heroine, so they did the next best thing: degraded, demoted, and insulted her while making Mara uber-everything.) We're supposed to think that Luke never loved Callista, when in fact he loved her very much and wanted to marry her.

Incidentally, it was Hambly's specific assignment to create Luke's soulmate. It's interesting that, though she preferred Luke and Callista, she was still generous toward Han and Leia. Contrast that with Kathy Tyers, who deliberately gypped Han and Leia because she wanted to focus on Luke and Mara, the couple she preferred.

I'll never understand why Luke and Mara's relationship gets such deference, when Han and Leia's is abused and disrespected. Come to think of it, the Han/Bria relationship gets deference too; the authors go out of their way to respect the idea that Bria is Han's first love, never mind that it was George Lucas's specific intention for Leia to be the first woman Han loved (I'm referring to love, not sex, so stifle the "What, you think Han was a monk before meeting Leia?" reply, please).

 

You make it sound as if these authors are betraying these fictional characters. I read these posts half expecting an "Et tu, Kathe?" Honestly, authors have characters they like to focus on and characters they don't...for God's sake that's all it is, I swear.

 

You make it sound as if these authors are betraying these fictional characters.

Oh, I wouldn't say "betraying." It's more like: "Acting out their long-held desires to torment them for real or perceived wrongs." Leia didn't fall for Luke like Tyers wanted. (She said in some interview or other that the biggest disappointment for her with the OT was that Luke didn't get to marry the princess.) Mara did, so of course, she's a goddess while Leia is insulted and degraded.

I read these posts half expecting an "Et tu, Kathe?" Honestly, authors have characters they like to focus on and characters they don't...for God's sake that's all it is, I swear.

Sure it is. That's why Kathy Tyers wrote, and spoke of, Leia's degradation and torture like she got off on it. That's why she bragged about how she could've written more scenes for Han and Leia but wanted to focus on Luke and Mara. That's why she turned what wasn't supposed to be a Luke/Mara fanfic into one. That's why she wrote Leia as being old and gray and sagging while Mara, who's the same age, was young and stunning enough to make teenage boys drool. That's why she had Leia wondering if Han loved her as much as Luke loved Mara. That's why she spent at least a year prior to writing BP gushing on these very boards about how much she loved Mara, while having scarcely a kind word for Leia.

 

Sure it is. That's why Kathy Tyers wrote, and spoke of, Leia's degradation and torture like she got off on it.

Holy...

That's why she bragged about how she could've written more scenes for Han and Leia but wanted to focus on Luke and Mara.

Isn't that her prerogative?

That's why she turned what wasn't supposed to be a Luke/Mara fanfic into one. That's why she wrote Leia as being old and gray and sagging while Mara, who's the same age, was young and stunning enough to make teenage boys drool.



That's why she had Leia wondering if Han loved her as much as Luke loved Mara. That's why she spent at least a year prior to writing BP gushing on these very boards about how much she loved Mara, while having scarcely a kind word for Leia.

Scarcely a kind word for Leia? That's it.

Everybody, please take a step back here. Take all this discussion back one remove. These are figments of imagination. Being "mean" to a fictional character does not constitute incompetency even in writing. Favoritism is not only acceptable for an author but damn near essential. I'm sorry if you are hurt by her little clique with Luke/Mara/Kathy, but that's the breaks.

 

Figments of imagination my ass. This is what happen. This is how that novel turned out. This is what this author actually admited to. Its not just DR but its these damn authors that have no respect for the characters or Lucas's creations and simply want to live out their fantasy. Which is completely unprofessional in this field I believe when the characters aren't even your own and you are getting payed to write a novel that a wide group of people will right. Especially when its been shown that you can give good scenes to one couple without having to do harm to another couple. Other authors have proven it. Tyers is and was unprofessional in doing this. A horrible author that cares more about getting a sad fan fic published instead of doing her actual job she was paid for. I call hack job and hack author on her.

 

I get it. It's not as much that you think Mara Jade is a Mary Sue...it's that you want Leia to be one.

 

No that isn't it at all. Stop putting words in people's mouths! Leia has her faults but she doesn't need to be constantly degraded just so another character can be made to look better. It just goes to show how they can't do anything with the character of Mara. They have to make her take the place of an already well know and loved character by degrading said character. Its sicking and the authors that do this make me sick as well. Luke and Leia are children of the Chosen One. If anyone should be able to do great things its these two and each should do certain things because they grew up differently yet they are constantly belittled and degraded by authors so they can push their own characters into the spotlight. Its a sign of horrible writing when this is done cause it seems to show that these authors can't think of anything interesting for their own characters to do, of their own worth, so they have them try to replace already made characters by destorying the character of the characters that are already there.

Good and decent writing and skill is building up your character along side an already established one, not degrading the other character to make yours look better.

Its actually sad to see some fans allow this and actually defend it when its clear as day that this happens simply cause they like the other characters. It has nothing to do with like of characters. Its just wrong all around when it happens no matter what the novel but it happens way to much in Star Wars, especially when it comes to Leia and trying to build up Mara it seems.

 

How does getting whipped constitute "degrading"? How does that push Mara into Leia's place because she gets a cool looking costume? Do you even realize that the reason why Leia is so strong a character is because of how much crap has been done to her? What do you know about "good writing skill", that you can make blanket statements about how it's done. Pfft. Let's be serious here. Bad things happening to one character and good things happen to another doesn't mean that there's a connection between the two. Next thing you'll be saying is that they're trying to push Wedge into Anakin Solo's spot because he got a promotion and Anakin died. Pfft.

 

Actually, Tyers was Shmi52 on these boards. ZGo look up her posts.

The editor, not rostini, the other one, was really pissed at her, and she gloated over the fact. I thought she was weird. She also said that Mara would never have an abortion but Leia would., That's ridiculous. She also said that she "prayed" for Mara's unborn child. That is not normal. But authors aren't really well socialized types. She was in the original Mara fan club, and she hated Leia. She also said that all brunettes were ugly and went grey early, which IMO is more of a reflective of how she feels about herself than a reflection of other "dogs" like Catherine Zeta Jones, or whatever.

The woman has some issues, let's face it.

She always wrote Leia OOC.

 

Very true and very sad that is warpped like this and she's suppose to be a professional. Hardly I say. I'm extremely glad that the editors were pissed but I guess with the schudule they were on it was to late to do anything and Tyers most likely knew that and knew she would get away with what she wrote, take her check and run.

 

Balance Point is one of my favorite SW books.

 

It's my least favorite book. It's down there with The Crystal Star.

Women, besides Jude Watson, just can't write good SW.

Tyers drove me nuts with Mara and her stupid thoughts, calling him Farmboy every thre mintues. Geez. And she wrote Anakin as a jerk, and he wasn't.

 

How does getting whipped constitute "degrading"?

Let's see -- being tortured almost to death (she was originally only supposed to be captured, but Tyers decided to torture her instead, and talked like she got off on it -- she even said she was surprised that the publisher let her torture Leia so badly), and also quite literally having insult added to injury with a remark about how she was "half-trained and uncertain in the Force."

Her family barely cares that she's tortured. Han doesn't even notice, much less go back to sit by her bedside. Jaina sedates her and then forgets about her. Luke is too busy cooing with Mara over their fetus to care. Of course, by then he's already shown how little he cares about Leia by how he ignored her cry for help because he preferred to hang around Mara uselessly, when she didn't need him but Leia did. Mara, aka the owner of his brain and spine, had even given him permission to go ("You're a good little puppy dog, you can go get that bone") and he still sat on his duff.

How does that push Mara into Leia's place because she gets a cool looking costume?

Let's see -- Mara is young and gorgeous enough to make her teenage nephew drool, while Leia is pointedly referred to as aged, sagging and gray. Leia wonders if Han loves her as much as Luke loves Mara. Luke and Mara get fifty-three intimate scenes in the book; Han and Leia get zero, even though they are the ones who went through a separation, and Tyers knew full well that in a later book, one of their children would die. Everyone worships Mara, but no one can muster a kind word for Leia. Mara is uber-everything, Leia is weak and incompetent and can't even save herself. Jaina smirks to herself about how inept Leia is with the Force, and then snarls that "some women shouldn't have children." Of course, Mara steps in and tells her not to talk about her mother that way, but it's presented as an example of Mara's beneficence toward the
"unworthy" Leia, just like Jaina's tirades against Leia are presented as the truth rather than the PMSing of a narcissistic brat who should have been slapped until her nose bled.

Do you even realize that the reason why Leia is so strong a character is because of how much crap has been done to her?

How convenient. Meanwhile, Mara is described and thought of as the strongest of them all, even though not even the tiniest fraction of that crap has been done to her.

What do you know about "good writing skill", that you can make blanket statements about how it's done. Pfft. Let's be serious here. Bad things happening to one character and good things happen to another doesn't mean that there's a connection between the two.

Sure it does, if it happens over an entire series. In the NJO, Mara gets a disease that doesn't slow her down, nor affect her looks, fertility, or libido. She emerges from it more youthfully beautiful than ever (you know, like all survivors of a "fatal" disease do). She's suddenly and inexplicably a Jedi master, a title she didn't earn and doesn't deserve. Her husband is completely devoted to her, and she gets to be his "first love," no matter that it rewrites what was previously established. No one says a single harsh word to her. Everyone admires and respects her. When she's in labor, the Solo kids are bent over, crying, her pain "scarring their souls." She's treated as an ideal to which all the other characters should aspire, and she's the standard against which they are all measured (and of course found wanting). She can act like a horse's rump for an entire book but still get rewarded with a mushy scene with Luke.

Leia, meanwhile, endures her husband's drunken verbal cruelty before he walks out on her (and thinks dreamily of "the good times" with some stupid girl who dumped him). Her ageing is pointedly referred to. Her daughter hates her and thinks she's a horrible mother and smirks about her "ineptitude" with the Force. Anakin forgets she exists, and so does Luke. Only Jacen seems to care about her, though he's mostly too busy navel-gaz

 

Well said Shelley. Great post and points. It sad that some people choose to ignore things like this or at least admit that others would have a point but would rather try and put words in the other person's mouth.

What do you know about "good writing skill", that you can make blanket statements about how it's done. Pfft. Let's be serious here. Bad things happening to one character and good things happen to another doesn't mean that there's a connection between the two. Next thing you'll be saying is that they're trying to push Wedge into Anakin Solo's spot because he got a promotion and Anakin died. Pfft.

Plenty I'm happy to say. Just because I haven't posted fan fiction like you have doesn't mean my opinion is any less valid or even wrong on the situation. I have excelled in English, Literature, and Writing courses at both the high school and college level. Honors courses in both. I've had my work submitted to several educational writing magazines by teachers over the years. SciFi isn't my genre of choice to write in but fantasy is. I may not be a professional(yet) but I can still see and understand when something has been done well or not so well. Just like movies can be made and are horrible. Just because a person is doing something at the professional level mean they are good or they aren't hacks or above criticism. This can be seen by tons of people, just because they aren't professional film critics or apart of the industry does that make their opinion and analysis wrong or less valid? No it doesn't.

Bad things happening to one character is one thing. Yet when it takes place over several novels, and the author ADMITS to being biased in favor of one couple when she CLEARLY knows she did wrong its something else. That's the situation here. Star Wars does not belong to Tyers. Its not her job live out her fantasy and get off by praising a couple in a book that is suppose to be about others and then degrade the characters that are suppose to get the main focus. The woman admited to doing these things when she was on the forums. She didn't feel sorry about it or anything.

Your whole Wedge and Anakin Solo reasoning is seriously flawed since Wedge has been in Star Wars since the beginning or haven't you watch the actual movies. If anything someone would be pushed into Wedge's spot. As for Anakin Solo, hell this just goes to show how stupid the authors and Del Rey are that they would build up such a character, have him happen to be the best out of all the characters in their sad attempt at a "realistic" story, only to kill him off for shock value and to shake things up and then further degrade the character's mother. Defend Mara all you want, play devils advocate but I have a hard to believing that even a person such as yourself can honestly think and feel that is okay for any author to do, to any character in favor of another. Then again I could be really wrong here and you could most likely be perfectly fine with it and you just might want it to be the Mara Story and screw everyone else in the process. Am I wrong or right here? This saddens me and I have no choice but to pity people that think like this and constantly make excuses for an authors behaviour like this when its clearly wrong, especially when its being done over a 19 novel series when it clearly wasn't done before, especially to this degree.

 

Neo
Dammit RW. I'm sick of you purposly spreading biased misinformation about characters such as Callista.

Biased. Yes. But not misinformation. Luke fell head over heels for Callista. They had a supernova romance. It didn't last. This is fact.

Luke and Mara had a slower realationship built on trust and respect and then finally love. And it is lasting.

And I suggest you drop this line before I decide to bring up your spreading of "biased misinformation" regarding Mara.

You even admited to enjoy doing that before.

I said I enjoyed telling what Callista did to Luke to newbs. I have stretched a bit. But it is basically the facts. I don't like Callista. I never did. I even tell people that I am biased towards Callista.

Why you may interpret some things differently, we all do, don't simply ignore what is actually writen in the novels. You do this all the damn time and it just makes yourself look all the more

I flat out tell people what my opinion is. And I flat out tell them what fact is. I either argue opinion or I argue fact.

foolish and childish when you try to argue a point.

Says someone who is on the "Mara was evil" bandwagon.

T_F
Women, besides Jude Watson, just can't write good SW.

Karen Traviss is one of the best SW writers. The high praise Republic Commando: Hard Contact gets here is good proff of this.