Mara Jade, and her waning fan base?

Don't flatter yourself Tiershon. I honestly could care less (just barely, though) what your views are when I'm determining my own. If they clash its because we're two different people who think in two different ways.

If you don't care, then why are you always so facetious and testy?

I never asked you to change your opinion.

 

Read closely. As in the "when I'm determining my own." I've already figured out my opinions. And I'm not likely to change them for you or anyone else.

 

I've been gone all weekend--wow, two new pages!

I don't see how some Mara fans can ignore this or refuse to even talk about these points. I can understand overlooking some things when you are a fan. We all do it but there are honestly just so many things that can not and shouldn't be overlooked just because one is a fan.

There's been plenty of discussion on those points, NeoStar--believe me, I've been through it (AND been through it). But I think most of these points in fact are based on personal opinion and definitely exaggeration and...possibly...over-analyzing [face_shocked] . for the record, I myself have said PLENTY of times that I do not think that Mara is "worshipped" while other characters are "put down" since such an idea never even entered my head while reading the books (I do read them objectively, despite what some may think, and I have never even thought of comparing Mara's role in the books with Leia's).

 

I wouldn't say Mara has all that much personality, and what she does have is unpleasant. Jar Jar at least tried to be friendly and to help other people. Mara bites everyone's heads off.

If Mara is as smart and clever and wonderful as we're supposed to believe, why doesn't she build her own lightsaber instead of using the lightsaber of a man she finds morally repugnant (Anakin Skywalker)? It's interesting that Mara, a Jedi master, used Anakin's lightsaber to attack the vines which dared to wrap themselves around her latest eponymous vanity ship, while in the same book, she hypocritically condemned him.

There's been plenty of discussion on those points, NeoStar--believe me, I've been through it (AND been through it). But I think most of these points in fact are based on personal opinion and definitely exaggeration and...possibly...over-analyzing . for the record, I myself have said PLENTY of times that I do not think that Mara is "worshipped" while other characters are "put down" since such an idea never even entered my head while reading the books

Let's look at the record.

In the NJO, Mara could literally do no wrong, and Leia could do no right. Mara was made a Jedi master, and Leia demoted to "half-trained and uncertain in the Force." Mara's husband was glued to her side, assuring her that she is the only woman he's ever loved; Leia's husband ran out on her and thought dreamily of "the good times" with some girl who dumped and betrayed him. Mara enjoyed many intimate moments with her husband; Leia couldn't even get an uninterrupted kiss with hers. Mara stayed youthfully gorgeous; Leia's ageing was made note of. Mara kicked butt and took names while "ill" and pregnant; Leia was made helpless and useless. Mara's mistakes and ignominious past were never brought up; Leia's mistakes were thrown in her face. In the book that was supposed to contain Han and Leia's reunion, Mara instead got all the intimate/personal scenes with her husband because the author was a huge Mara and Luke/Mara fan. Even as late as Force Heretic: Reunion, Luke/Mara still got all the love scenes.

Now, if you could bring up a time in the books when Mara's ageing and gray hair were pointedly referred to, or a time when Luke verbally abused Mara before walking out on her and thinking dreamily of "the good times" with Callista, or a time when someone insensitvely chewed out Mara after the death of her child, or a time when someone insulted Mara's mothering skills or said she shouldn't have had children, or a time when Mara was brutally tortured and her family blew it off, or a time when any of her mistakes were ever brought up and flung in her face, I'd be glad to hear it.

Because from where I'm standing, all of those things and more happened to Leia, whereas Mara enjoyed unquestioned praise, acceptance, admiration, etc. No one could praise Mara enough when she was ill, talking about her like she was the strongest and bravest of them all. Mara's past was all but erased, and she was even lumped in with those old enough to have fought against the Empire when she actually fought for it. Mara could say anything she wanted and everyone thought she was just wonderful. Mara did the same thing she criticized Leia for doing -- sent away her child -- and never underwent any self-analysis, nor did she reassess her opinion of Leia as delusional when Leia's feelings about Jacen still being alive proved to be correct. Mara never comforted Leia or showed her any compassion after Anakin died, nor did she feel any shame over her behavior. Meanwhile Leia and just about everyone else beat themselves up for their mistakes, and often it was Mara who pointed out those mistakes.

 

It wasn't Mara who sent away her child, it was the authors who didn't want to have him in their books.

Didn't Zahn do that in Hand of Thrawn? The three Solo kids weren't present.

 

Shelley: Mara gets all the pleasures in life over poor, forlorn Leia. Sure she does. But I think you're straying just a little from the Mara character, it seems more like you are doing a "Happiness Contest" between Mara and Leia and I'm not really seeing how Mara having a better life than Leia in the books is relevant to her character.

As for the torture thing, I don't recall it being blown off at the end of Balance Point or in Recovery.

As for the lightsaber, it was Darth Vader that she finds morally repugnant--how many people don't find Darth Vader to be morally repugnant? Mara took the lightsaber as a gift from Luke. And that's more of a judgment issue than an issue of intelligence anyway.

And if Mara can do no wrong, how come she is so "flawed" as to merit such hatred?

As for the vines scene. I think it's already been said that she considered hacking at the vines and didn't actually do so, but if you can post an excerpt to prove me wrong, I'll retract.

If you think that Mara gets more adoration than she deserves and moreso than any other character, the fact that Kyp Durron is still alive should dispel that illusion.

Tiershon_Fett: No, you didn't ask me to change my opinion. You insinuated that I change or make my opinion based on what you are saying, which is ridiculous. I believe it went a little like this:

"I honestly think you'll say anything opposite of what I say, just for the sake of contradicting."

DeJade_Vu: I agree. We've been discussing these issues up front for a while now.

 

It wasn't Mara who sent away her child, it was the authors who didn't want to have him in their books.

In the context of the story, Mara sent her child away. She was too busy feeling sorry for herself to care that her apprentice, Jaina, was skating toward the Dark Side. Some Jedi master. Well, at least it showed the brat that Mara wasn't so perfect after all, and she actually started treating her own mother like a human being again.

It's interesting that the later books retconned her lack of grief in SbS by saying she "pushed it down," when she most certainly didn't push down her distress at sending Ben away, nor at his brief disappearance, nor at crashing her ship. But she "pushed down" her grief over Anakin. Uh huh. Yeah. You can't "push down" what isn't there.

She should make her own lightsaber instead of using Anakin Skywalker's, considering she finds him so morally repugnant and gets mad if someone dares defend him.

 

Mara was made a Jedi master, and Leia demoted to "half-trained and uncertain in the Force." Mara's husband was glued to her side...Leia's husband ran out on her and thought dreamily of "the good times" with some girl who dumped and betrayed him. Mara enjoyed many intimate moments with her husband; Leia couldn't even get an uninterrupted kiss with hers.

And this is Mara's fault? Instead of hating a fictional character get mad at the authors.

You are correct in this respect, the writers did not give Han and Leia a moment of peace or happiness during the NJO. They deserve better. They deserve a "happily ever-after" life. But I do not blame Mara for their misfortune.

 

I didn't say all that was Mara's fault, I was replying to DeJade_Vu's claims that Mara was not worshipped/favored in the NJO.

I have blamed the authors, only to get the reply: "Don't blame the authors!"

 

Tiershon_Fett: No, you didn't ask me to change my opinion. You insinuated that I change or make my opinion based on what you are saying, which is ridiculous. I believe it went a little like this:

"I honestly think you'll say anything opposite of what I say, just for the sake of contradicting."


You do. No matter what anyone says (esp I say) about Mara, you have say the exact opposite. You do it just to be facetious.

What I say about Mara is widely agreed upon by people I don't even know, or talk to. My points about Mara are valid, but you always act as though it's a complete fabrication.

Did you ever stop to think that our dislike of Mara has nothing to do with Suzuki Akira? You react as though our thoughts on Mara are a personal affront to you personally. It's just weird. We've hated the character years before you ever showed up. Why do you feel the need to snap at anyone that makes a comment. You don't to descend in like a vulture and make your snippy little comments. It must be exhausting.

Really, there's been JFT, and few others that were just like you, and we wore them out. I don't even remember the others.

Anyway, I will no longer read nor respond to your posts. See ya.

 

I have blamed the authors, only to get the reply: "Don't blame the authors!"

Did you get that admonishment from a MOD? If so, then I have broken that rule a few times. Opps!

If you cannot blame the writers, I cannot fathom who we should blame. Now I agree that we should not get abusive and launch vulgarities toward the authors, but we should be able to comment on what they wrote and why we liked or disliked it.

 

No, it wasn't a mod, it was a Mara fan.

I don't put all of the blame on the authors. For instance, I blame Kathy Tyers for deviating from her assignment because she wanted to write a Luke/Mara fanfic, but I also blame the publishers for allowing it.

I think Han and Leia's separation was a horrible idea, compounded by the fact that it was handled so poorly and basically seemed like an exercise in "how much degradation can we pile on Han/Leia?" As I've pointed out before, even James Luceno wishes he'd written it differently.

 

Well, that is true. Oh no, I have agreed with Shelley twice this week! What is happening to me!?!

 

I think Han and Leia's separation was a horrible idea, compounded by the fact that it was handled so poorly and basically seemed like an exercise in "how much degradation can we pile on Han/Leia?"


Even Luceno, who wrote the 'Han being a moron' scenes, regrets it.

I think Kathy Tyers went way over the top with her L/M thing. I didn't really want to know what Luke's mouth tastes like. Little too much knowledge there. That was too much. Or how Anakin got aroused looking at Mara while Luke giggled.

Tyers seems to have a red head fixation. Her other books feature Mara clones.

Well, that is true. Oh no, I have agreed with Shelley twice this week! What is happening to me!?!

*Shelley nods conspiratorily at Tiershon, eyes narrowed with evil amusement*

Shelley: Everything is transpiring according to my plans! Mwuhahahahahahahaha!!!

Tiershon: Mwuheheheh.......Mwahahahahaha!

 

Well, that is true. Oh no, I have agreed with Shelley twice this week! What is happening to me!?!

Take two aspirin and lie down.

Even Luceno, who wrote the Han being a moron scenes, regrets it.

Yep. And he wrote Han and Leia quite well in TUF. Perhaps he wanted to make up for how he wrote them in the AoC books.

I think Kathy Tyers went way over the top with her L/M thing. I didn't really want to know what Luke's mouth tastes like. That was too much. Or how Anakin got aroused looking at Mara while Luke giggled.

Ugh...that scene was beyond disgusting. I've seen people defend it by saying that Luke crushed on his own sister. OK, there's a difference: Luke didn't know Leia was his sister when he had a crush on her. Anakin knew Mara was his aunt when his eyes bugged out at the sight of her. So did Luke when he grinned at it.

 

As much as I hated what happen to Luke, what happent to Han and Leia really made me sick. Especially since I've always liked them from the movies and the earlier books. I wish I had commented on it more in the past and in the Han and Leia tread.

 

Or how Anakin got aroused looking at Mara while Luke giggled.

Is this referring to the scene where Mara got disguised as some voluptuous alien? If so, I was not offended by that scene. Anakin was surprised and shocked (and possibly aroused) at Mara's transformation. I assume in that moment he was seeing the disguise and not thinking of his Aunt. Now if Anakin went to a pool party at Luke and Mara's house and ogled at Mara like that when she walked by in a bikini, then I would be disgusted.


Tiershon_Fett *Shelley nods conspiratorily at Tiershon, eyes narrowed with evil amusement*

Shelley: Everything is transpiring according to my plans! Mwuhahahahahahahaha!!!

Tiershon: Mwuheheheh.......Mwahahahahaha!

Ah, I knew it! You are Sith!

I do believe I have found some common ground with Shelley, Tiershon_Fett, and NeoStar9. I also think Han and Leia have been short changed in many of the SW Novels. In The Courtship of Princess Leia she really treats Han badly. Of course, I realize one must have some conflict in a novel or else it would be boring, but I thought it was out of character for Leia.

When Chewie died Han treated his whole family like dirt. I also thought this was also out of character.

We do have these beliefs in common, but I do not think these problems can be rectified by begrudging Luke and Mara any happiness. I wish the writers would give them all some respite from war and suffering.

 

Tiershon_Fett: For someone lecturing me on acting as if everything is a personal attack, it must be awful ironic that this whole spat started because you assumed our own difference of opinion must be some kind of ploy to spite you...never mind that we're on polar ends of the central dispute in question...

Shelley: Okay, even I have to admit that NJO consistently lays L/M on too thick. However, I don't really think that its a subterfuge to exalt Mara, neither do I think we can blame it on Tyers alone. That's just me. And we can't really know how Mara felt about Anakin's death. We do know, by the Edge of Victory series, conclusively, that Mara did feel something for the little Vadey child.

NeoStar: Leia and Han definetly got the short straw here. I think it was a bad idea gone worse, to have Han leave like that. Doesn't seem in character. Although I must say (take it sadistically if you must) that watching Leia suffer was at least interesting, even though evil. *cowers from all the Leia fans coming to beat him to a bloody mass* Eep...

 

As much as I hated what happen to Luke, what happent to Han and Leia really made me sick. Especially since I've always liked them from the movies and the earlier books. I wish I had commented on it more in the past and in the Han and Leia tread.

The Han/Leia thread is still around. I just upped it, so you can contribute if you'd like.

There's also Han and Leia's Club House in the EU Community forum.

Is this referring to the scene where Mara got disguised as some voluptuous alien? If so, I was not offended by that scene.

I was.

Anakin was surprised and shocked (and possibly aroused)

Ewww!

at Mara's transformation. I assume in that moment he was seeing the disguise and not thinking of his Aunt. Now if Anakin went to a pool party at Luke and Mara's house and ogled at Mara like that when she walked by in a bikini, then I would be disgusted.

Who's to say he didn't?

Ah, I knew it! You are Sith!

Watch out...that means I know how to use Force lightning!

I do believe I have found some common ground with Shelley, Tiershon_Fett, and NeoStar9. I also think Han and Leia have been short changed in many of the SW Novels. In The Courtship of Princess Leia she really treats Han badly. Of course, I realize one must have some conflict in a novel or else it would be boring, but I thought it was out of character for Leia.

Yeah, COPL had everyone acting badly out of character. I hated how Leia treated Han in that, and also how Han and Luke acted. It stomped all over Han and Leia's love, with Leia "trying to remember how she felt when Han was frozen in carbonite." ACK!

When Chewie died Han treated his whole family like dirt. I also thought this was also out of character.

So did I.

We do have these beliefs in common, but I do not think these problems can be rectified by begrudging Luke and Mara any happiness. I wish the writers would give them all some respite from war and suffering.

Luke and Mara have already had respite from war and suffering. Nothing that happened in the NJO strained them or their love, and they enjoyed gobs of alone time. Han and Leia were separated and have been denied alone time, once by Luke himself.

Anyway, I don't begrudge Luke and Mara happiness. I do resent them getting all the happiness, and them being elevated at Han and Leia's expense. A lot of the resentment that I and I think other people feel toward Luke and Mara is that their marriage was just peachy (and we were repeatedly reminded that Luke has never loved a woman like he loves Mara, and that Luke and Mara's Force bond makes them the perfect couple) while Han and Leia were crapped on time and time again. More than that, Luke and Mara were incredibly insensitive toward Han and Leia, especially when Anakin died.

I've seen some people justify it by saying that Luke and Mara are a newer, "more exciting" couple. Never mind that Han and Leia overwhelmingly win "favorite SW couple" polls, with Luke and Mara placing second and sometimes even third or fourth.

 

We do have these beliefs in common, but I do not think these problems can be rectified by begrudging Luke and Mara any happiness. I wish the writers would give them all some respite from war and suffering.

Luke and Mara have already had respite from war and suffering. Nothing that happened in the NJO strained them or their love, and they enjoyed gobs of alone time. Han and Leia were separated and have been denied alone time, once by Luke himself.

No kidding. They played kissy kissy for nine months on the way to and also on Zenoma Sekot, while everyone else risked their lives daily with the Vong.
They have had enough respite for ten couples already.

I think the best thing for them not to be written about so much. That would rectify a lot.

I like Mara best and her role as Luke's wife during the YJK years. Perfect. Let's have some more of that.

 

No kidding. They played kissy kissy for nine months on the way to and also on Zenoma Sekot, while everyone else risked their lives daily with the Vong.
They have had enough respite for ten couples already.

Exactly. If there was a couple who needed respite, it was Han and Leia.

I think the best thing for them not to be written about so much. That would rectify a lot.

Yep.

I like Mara best and her role as Luke's wife during the YJK years. Perfect. Let's have some more of that.

ROTFL!!!

I actually didn't mind Mara too much in TUF. Although it was annoying to see Leia rush over to hug Luke and Mara, so happy to see them, and their reaction is more: "Oh, hi."

Okay, even I have to admit that NJO consistently lays L/M on too thick.

Yes, it does, which in and of itself isn't necessarily bad -- but what stuck in the craws of Han/Leia fans is that the books laid L/M on too thick at the same time Han and Leia were abused. And while one cannot blame Kathy Tyers for the books she didn't write, one can blame her for the decisions she made with the book she did write. BP was not supposed to be a Luke/Mara fanfic, and she made it one, because it was what she, and other Luke/Mara fans (whom she'd been talking to for at least a year -- has a fanbase ever had that kind of pipeline to an author, before or since?), personally wanted to see.

Han/Leia fans have been gypped time and time again, while Luke and Mara enjoyed a bounty.

 

? If Mara is as smart and clever and wonderful as we're supposed to believe, why doesn't she build her own lightsaber instead of using the lightsaber of a man she finds morally repugnant (Anakin Skywalker)? It's interesting that Mara, a Jedi master, used Anakin's lightsaber to attack the vines which dared to wrap themselves around her latest eponymous vanity ship, while in the same book, she hypocritically condemned him.?

Mara did build her own lightsaber. The one she uses in Star Wars: Union is one she built herself; she just preferrs to use the one she was given by Luke.

??There's been plenty of discussion on those points, NeoStar--believe me, I've been through it (AND been through it). But I think most of these points in fact are based on personal opinion and definitely exaggeration and...possibly...over-analyzing . for the record, I myself have said PLENTY of times that I do not think that Mara is "worshipped" while other characters are "put down" since such an idea never even entered my head while reading the books?

Let's look at the record.

In the NJO, Mara could literally do no wrong, and Leia could do no right. Mara was made a Jedi master, and Leia demoted to "half-trained and uncertain in the Force." Mara's husband was glued to her side, assuring her that she is the only woman he's ever loved; Leia's husband ran out on her and thought dreamily of "the good times" with some girl who dumped and betrayed him. Mara enjoyed many intimate moments with her husband; Leia couldn't even get an uninterrupted kiss with hers. Mara stayed youthfully gorgeous; Leia's ageing was made note of. Mara kicked butt and took names while "ill" and pregnant; Leia was made helpless and useless. Mara's mistakes and ignominious past were never brought up; Leia's mistakes were thrown in her face. In the book that was supposed to contain Han and Leia's reunion, Mara instead got all the intimate/personal scenes with her husband because the author was a huge Mara and Luke/Mara fan. Even as late as Force Heretic: Reunion, Luke/Mara still got all the love scenes.

Now, if you could bring up a time in the books when Mara's ageing and gray hair were pointedly referred to, or a time when Luke verbally abused Mara before walking out on her and thinking dreamily of "the good times" with Callista, or a time when someone insensitvely chewed out Mara after the death of her child, or a time when someone insulted Mara's mothering skills or said she shouldn't have had children, or a time when Mara was brutally tortured and her family blew it off, or a time when any of her mistakes were ever brought up and flung in her face, I'd be glad to hear it.

Because from where I'm standing, all of those things and more happened to Leia, whereas Mara enjoyed unquestioned praise, acceptance, admiration, etc. No one could praise Mara enough when she was ill, talking about her like she was the strongest and bravest of them all. Mara's past was all but erased, and she was even lumped in with those old enough to have fought against the Empire when she actually fought for it. Mara could say anything she wanted and everyone thought she was just wonderful. Mara did the same thing she criticized Leia for doing -- sent away her child -- and never underwent any self-analysis, nor did she reassess her opinion of Leia as delusional when Leia's feelings about Jacen still being alive proved to be correct. Mara never comforted Leia or showed her any compassion after Anakin died, nor did she feel any shame over her behavior. Meanwhile Leia and just about everyone else beat themselves up for their mistakes, and often it was Mara who pointed out those mistakes.?

Mara was not ?over-praised? at the ?Expence? of Leia. You keep on talking about how Mara berated Leia for her grief at Anakin?s death, but have yet to post evidence to back it up. As far as her past goes, there was no need for it to be brought up. Dealing with her past would have had no effect on the story, and would, in fact, detracted from it. You make all of these

 

You make all of these vague accusations about Mara with no evidence to support it.


How is Mara sending her kid away to do basically nothing on the Zenoma Sekot mission, when she criticized Leia for being neglectful, though she was the ruler of the entire galaxy, and Mara was unemployed, VAGUE?

She sent Ben away and she had no reason to not be with him. Instead of staring at his pictures, she could have been with him. She chose to mess around with Luke instead. She added absolutely nothing to the ZS mission. It was all Jacen and Danni, and Luke. Mara was worthless there. She should have stayed with her kid. Nothing was stopping her from doing that. She threw away vital bonding years with her kid for no reason. But we are supposed to think of her as mother of the year.

 

Shouldn't Anakin Skywalker's lightsaber be with one of his descendants at least?

C'mon, there's at least five of them to choose from.

 

I agree. Mara's not worthy.

Esp after she has nothing but bad things to say about it's creator. She has nerve, she's married to his kid, has place in the galaxy because of his daughter. Has a family because of Anakin, uses his lightsaber, and talks crap about him. And really it only stems from jealousy, because she thought she was his equal in some way, which is a joke.

Anakin basically helped Palpatine be Emperor. What could Mara ever do to rival that? Answer: Not a thing.

She should shut up. She had her job because Anakin helped Palpatine, she has everything she's ever had directly or not, because of Anakin Skywalker. She needs to have some gratitude, or at least keep her mouth shut.