Mara Jade, and her waning fan base?

The book that really implied that they were sleeping together was Children of the Jedi. Han comms Lando and Mara answers wearing Lando's over-sized shirt. Zahn, in VOTF, went out of his way to explain it away as some kind of scam they were running at the time. Personally, I think it's lame to say that Lando and Mara were just pretending to be an item for all those years. Who cares if Mara slept with Lando at one point? Luke couldn't have worn white robes at the wedding either. I have to believe that he at least slept with Callista Ming, if not Akanah Pell also. Why couldn't Mara have said that she did have feelings for Lando at one time but they had faded over time and now they're just good friends. That can happen, even in SW (Wedge and Qwi, anyone?).

 

But you do use it to define who she is. You claim she is not worthy to carry the lightsaber of Anakin Skywalker and one reason you claim this is because she repeatedly insults Anakin Skywalker.

I believe I've questioned why she carries the lightsaber of a man she doesn't respect and repeatedly insults, but I don't remember specifically saying she doesn't deserve to carry his lightsaber because she repeatedly insults him.

Here is a question. Is it the same to speak badly of Vader as would it be to speak badly of Anakin Skywalker?

No, but Mara has done both.

Actually you speak of her insulting Anakin Skywalker. Is this the same as insulting Darth Vader?

No, I spoke of her insulting Vader: "Vader? Don't make me laugh. Vader was a fool, and skating along the edge of treason on top of it."

The book that really implied that they were sleeping together was Children of the Jedi. Han comms Lando and Mara answers wearing Lando's over-sized shirt. Zahn, in VOTF, went out of his way to explain it away as some kind of scam they were running at the time. Personally, I think it's lame to say that Lando and Mara were just pretending to be an item for all those years. Who cares if Mara slept with Lando at one point? Luke couldn't have worn white robes at the wedding either. I have to believe that he at least slept with Callista Ming, if not Akanah Pell also. Why couldn't Mara have said that she did have feelings for Lando at one time but they had faded over time and now they're just good friends. That can happen, even in SW (Wedge and Qwi, anyone?).

It was a lame, and needless, retcon, probably done for the purpose of feeding Zahn's belief that Mara was earmarked as Luke's soulmate, that the Force guided them to each other and told them to save themselves for each other. Callista has been all but erased from continuity, only brought up so that the audience can be reassured that she was nothing, that Luke's first true love is Mara. Meanwhile the books repeatedly bring up Bria and remind the audience that she is Han's "first love" (including when Han and Leia were separated) and there have been no reassurances that Han has never loved a woman like he loves Leia.

I wonder why there's such deference to Luke and Mara's love, and such little respect for Han and Leia's love, especially considering that a) Han's creator and portrayer have both said that Leia is the first woman Han loved/fell in love with; b) the ANH novelization and script refer to a "wench" that Han is cannoodling with before meeting Luke and Obi Wan, which is odd if he's meant to be grieving the loss of his first love; c) the ROTJ novelization says that Han had never known love before Leia; and d) Callista was created, within the normal passage of the timeline, as Luke's soulmate; whereas Bria was retroactively inserted into the timeline as Han's "first love."

 

I am not saying you are incorrect in your belief, but wouldn't Luke have known if she was lying? In VotF, didn't it say that when Mara and Luke had that special Force connection going on they were able to see into their innermost spirit and depths their hearts and the very core of their beings?

I would think when Mara's heart and spirit were open to Luke he would know if she was dishonest to him.

I think that was a one-time thing and they didn't exactly comb over every second of each other's lives in 12 seconds. That's what their whole relationship is based on, 12-15 seconds of a phony force bond thing.

Anyway, why would it matter? It had nothing to do with that moment. It was in the past. When you realized that you fell in love with your spouse, did you think of your string of exes?

That's what bugs about Zahn and his babyish whining. She's an attractive, wealthy, independent woman in her mid-thirties. Why wouldn't she ever have a relationship until the "force bond", which was totally unexpected? That is a ridiculous expectation, and totally unrealistic. How many woman have you met like Mara, that's never kissed a boy until she was nearly 40? There are none.

And I think Luke brought that up out of frustration, because Mara was giving him crap about Calista, when the girl clearly left him. She had no right to bring it up, so, of course he's going to bring up whatever, like people do when they fight.

 

I am sorry Shelley, I reread your posts and saw this qualifier. I do not mean to be rude, I just wanted some context to the scenario before I answered.

OK.

So, I guess you are saying is that the fictive Luke/Jaina scenario you set up would be a similar situation as the Anakin/Mara. So I am assuming Luke is getting into a disguise and then entering the room where his Niece is sitting. Is this correct?

A disguise which showed off a great deal of his toned physique.

So, let up set this up. Luke is going on an undercover mission and wants to be disguised so he is not recognized at Luke Skywalker. He enters the latrine and 45 minutes later he exits as the EU equivalent of Brad Pitt or Orlando Bloom (or whoever young teenage girls swoon over today).

More like, he emerges wearing a getup that disguises the fact that he is Luke Skywalker, Jaina's uncle, but shows off much more of his toned physique than his typical outfit does. Mara wore an extremely low-cut outfit that showed off a lot of cleavage. I'm thinking the equivalent for Luke would be something where he was nearly shirtless and emphasized his muscles.

Jaina seeing her Uncle exit looking like her favorite teen idol is shocked and nearly falls out of her seat. Uncle Luke at seeing his disguise (meaning he does not look like Luke Skywalker)

Except Mara didn't emerge simply "not looking like Mara." She emerged wearing an extremely low-cut outfit that showed a lot of cleavage.

is effective jokes with Jaina saying "No drooling, but you can have my autograph if you like."

No, if he says, "Don't drool on the carpet."

[I (and by "I", I mean a hypothetical author) am changing "You may kiss our hand", to "you can have my autograph", because of the differences in disguises. In some Earth cultures it is appropriate to kiss the hand or ring of royalty (which Mara was trying to disguise as).]

Fair enough, because traditionally, women do not kiss men's hands. So "You may have my autograph" is a fair substitution.

Put in that context, I do not think that is offensive or improper.

But it's not the same scenario, you see.

I never thought you were snotty, just passionate in your beliefs. That is often a good thing.

Thanks, I appreciate that.

By-the-way, I am glad you get a good night sleep. I wish I could, but I have two babies that always thwart my attempts to sleep.

Thanks, and I understand. I don't have children myself but I know from hearing my friends, etc. talk that babies don't generally mix with a good night's sleep.

 

I for one never thought she was a virgin bride, nor do I care. I was just curious because I did not remember the Lando/Mara relationship. I was not sure if it was written as such or just insinuated.

Tiershon_Fett: And I think Luke brought that up out of frustration, because Mara was giving him crap about Calista, when the girl clearly left him. She had no right to bring it up, so, of course he's going to bring up whatever, like people do when they fight.

I agree with you there. When I read that I thought, "Ouch! That is a hit below the belt". It was cruel to bring up a woman that left Luke and another that died.

 

I for one never thought she was a virgin bride, nor do I care.

Nor do I. I don't like Mara, but I couldn't care less if she was a virgin bride. I actually liked her with Lando, but beyond that, I find it annoying and more than a little sexist for her relationship with Lando to be retconned into "She was only pretending."

I was just curious because I did not remember the Lando/Mara relationship. I was not sure if it was written as such or just insinuated.

We didn't see actual love scenes, but it was very strongly insinuated.

I agree with you there. When I read that I thought, "Ouch! That is a hit below the belt". It was cruel to bring up a woman that left Luke and another that died.

I think that's a good example of her insensitivity, as well as her jealous, petty nature. She can't stand to have competition, which is why she snipes at Anakin/Vader, and why she freaked out when she discovered she was not the only Hand. Zahn retconned that last, as well -- he elevated her (along with Thrawn and Kinman Doriana) to Vader's level.

I wonder how, exactly, she could be on Vader's level but at the same time be totally pure-minded and innocent and uncorrupted by the Dark Side. Similarly, I wonder how she could've gotten extensive Force training from a Sith (an evil, corrupt man who thought nothing of killing scores of innocent people in order to achieve power, who commissioned a weapon capable of destroying an entire planet) but somehow avoid the Dark Side completely.

 

How many woman have you met like Mara, that's never kissed a boy until she was nearly 40? There are none.

I guess if a person was very religious and did not believe in premarital relations, then it is possible. But in Mara's case I find that very unrealistic. She does not appear to be the religious type. Mara is a person who often gets what she wants. Why wouldn't she want "companionship" every once in a while?

 

One thing I do not understand is why so many of the authors have such an aversion to writing intimate/personal scenes for Han and Leia, when they most certainly don't have any such aversion for writing those scenes for Luke and Mara. This extends beyond the books. Han and Leia's "Valentine" comic was set, strangely, before ESB and the official beginning of their romance. As a result, they had an excuse to avoid real romance.

Then this year, Luke and Mara get a short-story "Valentine," set after their marriage. I haven't read it, but I don't doubt it was stuffed with romance.

Han and Leia's wedding rated a page, told from Luke's perspective -- in a book which stomped all over their romance and separated them for most of it anyway. Luke and Mara, on the other hand, got a multi-part comic series devoted exclusively to their wedding, and stuffed with romantic moments.

 

If you haven't read it you really have no place to be commenting on any romantic aspects of it. I myself have read it, and it likely isn't what you're expecting.

As for the Mara/Anakin dilemma, I've taken it upon myself to type up and post the entire scene for fair analysis.

Balance Point: Page 175-176, starting on paragraph 10 of 175 and ending on paragraph 3 of page 176.

"When she(Mara) stepped out half an hour later, Anakin grabbed his cot's edge with both hands. His eyebrows raised so far that they nearly vanised under his dark hair.
Laughing inwardly, she tilted up her chin and stared down at him. "You may kiss our palm." she said in a languid Kuati accent.
"Wow," he choked.
Luke folded his arms and leaned against the blank view-wall, grinning. He'd seen her in many guises, but this one was spectacular. She'd tinted her red-gold mane a deep reddish brown and pulled it back severly into a tail at the crown of her head, securing it with a circlet of false emeraudes. Bits of masking putty raised the bridge of her nose; shadowing gel gave her cheeks a prominent hollow. More emeraudes rimmed her ears and dangled halfway down her neck. The amethyst-colored tunic was belted in what would pass for gold, had a spatter of green gemms on one shoulder, and the cutout beneath the high collar plunged drastically. Her elevated shoes were tapered to give the illusion that the extra height was all her own, but the heels could be kicked off if she needed to make a fast getaway.
She cuffed Anakin's shoulder. "Don't drool on the carpet," she said. "I'm surprised you're still here."
"We won't be for long." Luke pushed off the wall.

Well there you have it. Doesn't seem overly suggestive to me...but...argue away.

 

Shelley: Then this year, Luke and Mara get a short-story "Valentine," set after their marriage. I haven't read it, but I don't doubt it was stuffed with romance.

It really was not that romantic.

You can view it at: http://www.randomhouse.com/delrey/starwars/valentine.html

 

It's more romantic than Han and Leia's "Valentine" comic, but I was wrong in thinking it was stuffed with romance.

 

I have never read Han and Leia's valentine comic. Can you give me more information so I can order it? Thanks!

 

Han/Leia "Valentine" comic

The BP scene is worse than I thought.

 

As I remember it was Mara pouting because Luke wasn't spending any time with here while they were on some diplomatic mission. Then Luke putting off all his appointments to have a romantic evening with Mara.

Then I think she complained about the flowers.

It's been a while since I read it.

 

Mea culpa. I just remembered: there was a Han/Leia short story (written by Troy Denning) released before Tatooine Ghost that did have some very nice romance.

The disparity has gotten better in recent years, but there was a very big disparity for a long time. And I would still like to see a scene where it's affirmed that Han has never loved a woman like he loves Leia. There have been several such affirmations for Luke and Mara, and considering all Han and Leia have been through, it's only fair. Especially since many of the books in the NJO made a point to extol the virtues of Luke and Mara's Force bond while neglecting to note how much Han and Leia have been through (and that's not even counting the pre-NJO EU and the movies).

 

Sorry, Amidala. No complaints about the flowers. DON'T YOU MAKE ME HAVE TO POST THAT EXCERPT, TOO!

 

Well Suzuki_Akira she was complaining about something.

 

She cuffed Anakin's shoulder. "Don't drool on the carpet," she said. "I'm surprised you're still here."

So it looks like Mara did not expect to see Anakin and Luke when she stepped out of the refresher. So I guess she did not change into that sexy outfit with the intent of seducing a 15 year boy.

 

Except for maybe Thrawn McEwok, no one was proposing that she did.

 

You know, I just don't see how DR, LFL, and even to a degree some Mara and Luke fans(them as a couple) can justify how M/L has been forced into the spotlight and in everyone's face while Han and Leia have clearly, anyone can see especially after it has been talked about, have been trashed. One author has said she prefers Luke and Mara and due to that they get the best scenes while H/L are torn apart and made to look horrible to make L/M look even better. These aren't things that are made up. It has happen far to often to even be a rare thing. What in the hell do they have against Han and Leia as a couple and even as parents? I'd really like to know to be honest. Is it because this is one of the many things that Lucas created that they can not change so they decide to step on it instead and make people hate the characters? That's the feeling I'm getting from this.

 

Amidala Starkiller: Well Suzuki_Akira she was complaining about something.

No, not really. At the start of the story it says she resented how much time the people demanded of her husband's time, but she keeps it to herself. She does not express it.

When she arrives to the Kei Ras Cirali's retreat she is happy and comments that she noticed the flowers, music and food.

The only thing she jokes about is when she tells her husband playfully "You ever call me a blushing bride you're going to be in serious trouble".

The author makes it clear she is joking.

 

Neo_Star: "You know, I just don't see how DR, LFL, and even to a degree some Mara and Luke fans(them as a couple) can justify how M/L has been forced into the spotlight and in everyone's face while Han and Leia have clearly, anyone can see especially after it has been talked about, have been trashed. One author has said she prefers Luke and Mara and due to that they get the best scenes while H/L are torn apart and made to look horrible to make L/M look even better. These aren't things that are made up. It has happen far to often to even be a rare thing. What in the hell do they have against Han and Leia as a couple and even as parents? I'd really like to know to be honest. Is it because this is one of the many things that Lucas created that they can not change so they decide to step on it instead and make people hate the characters? That's the feeling I'm getting from this. "

While I agree that H/L has been pushed to the spotlight, I myself and many other find that that's no valid reason to hate Luke and Mara. Doing so can only be described as how I said it before, a jealousy of sorts.

 

You know, I just don't see how DR, LFL, and even to a degree some Mara and Luke fans(them as a couple) can justify how M/L has been forced into the spotlight and in everyone's face while Han and Leia have clearly, anyone can see especially after it has been talked about, have been trashed. One author has said she prefers Luke and Mara and due to that they get the best scenes while H/L are torn apart and made to look horrible to make L/M look even better. These aren't things that are made up. It has happen far to often to even be a rare thing. What in the hell do they have against Han and Leia as a couple and even as parents? I'd really like to know to be honest. Is it because this is one of the many things that Lucas created that they can not change so they decide to step on it instead and make people hate the characters? That's the feeling I'm getting from this.

I know what you mean, and it is very puzzling. I think that the trend was set with Zahn's first three books. Zahn is not a Han/Leia fan, and he began what would continue throughout the EU: separating them for nearly all of each book.

COPL was a travesty that disrespected their romance, and it took more than ten years for the worst of the damage to be repaired (in "Tatooine Ghost"). Han's romance with Bria was the main focus of the so-called "Han Solo Trilogy," and made some people question whether Leia and Han were truly soulmates, or if Han would've fallen for Leia if Bria hadn't died.

Then came the NJO, which seemed determined to belittle and dump all over Han and Leia at every opportunity, while Luke and Mara were rammed down the readers' throats. Luke and Mara got banquets, while Han and Leia were lucky to get a few crumbs brushed off their laps. Han and Leia were separated, with Han thinking dreamily of "the good times" with Bria, as if the times with Leia weren't good. The separation was lengthy and painful, and they didn't even get a proper reunion because of Kathy Tyers' publicly stated preference for Luke and Mara. The books which were supposed to focus more on their reunion were canceled, and the subsequent books ignored them entirely. "Recovery" was a stop-gap measure that offered no real personal/intimate time for them. And then they lose their youngest son.

All throughout this, Luke and Mara -- who had already gotten a multi-part comic devoted exclusively to their wedding, and which was full of romance -- were shown kissing, cuddling, spending all kinds of time together with no third wheel along to interrupt them, and basking in each other's love, which as we were reminded (in case we forgot it from the previous book) was incredibly strong and deep because of their Force bond. I guess that a couple who survives the death of a close family friend, heavy drinking, a separation, brutal torture, and the death of a child can't possibly be as strong as a couple who has a *flourish of trumpets, please* Force bond.

 

QuentinGeorge: Obviously to Mara it is. When Jabitha brought up how Anakin had saved her, Mara immediately launched into her tirade about Vader. If Mara considers them separate people, why is she attacking someone's memory of Anakin?

Well I hope it's to cue the readers to remember that that cute, innocent kid grew up into a genocidal Sith - and thus to suggest that we should be very careful about taking Jabitha/Sekot at face value, at least as a judge of character...

With all that that implies for Jacen Solo...



Sorry - wrong thread!

Amidala_Starkiller: Mara and Lando had an affair and TZ tried to paint over it.

Are you sure? I need to reread VotF to be sure, but I'm not sure that you have to read it that way... TZ is a sneaky bastard, and I think you could read it as Mara glossing over what happened for Luke's sake... and in doing so, realising how much she cares for him...

Tiershon_Fett: That's what bugs about Zahn and his babyish whining. She's an attractive, wealthy, independent woman in her mid-thirties. Why wouldn't she ever have a relationship until the "force bond", which was totally unexpected? That is a ridiculous expectation, and totally unrealistic. How many woman have you met like Mara, that's never kissed a boy until she was nearly 40? There are none.

Like I said, I'm not sure that there isn't some ambiguity in the way Zahn wrote the relevant scenes... do Mara's thoughts - as opposed to what she says to Luke - actually say that she didn't have a relationship with Lando?

88: So it looks like Mara did not expect to see Anakin and Luke when she stepped out of the refresher.

Read the scene carefully - that remark could be addressed simply to Luke - immediately before she got the idea of impersonating Kuati nobility, he'd said that he was going to look for Jacen. Nothing to say she didn't expect to have Anakin waiting for her - and as she reflects in her next scene, she really did need a "servant" (sc. sex-slave) to round out her disguise...



So I guess she did not change into that sexy outfit with the intent of seducing a 15 year boy.

Two points:

1. Anakin is sixteen in Balance Point...


2. Who's to say she hasn't already seduced him - or vice versa...?

Sorry. Extended homage to Tom Jones...

Shelley: Except for maybe Thrawn McEwok, no one was proposing that she did.

Um, I thought that was what you were saying yourself...

Luke and Mara -- who had already gotten a multi-part comic devoted exclusively to their wedding, and which was full of romance -- were shown kissing, cuddling, spending all kinds of time together with no third wheel along to interrupt them, and basking in each other's love, which as we were reminded (in case we forgot it from the previous book) was incredibly strong and deep because of their Force bond.

Well, quite apart from any hypothetical involvement of Anakin in the subtext... I'm not convinced that L/M as a marriage is actually working all that well in the NJO... they're presented as two people who love and understand each other very deeply, but look at all the little quirks and flinches on both sides... that's not a perfect relationship, by any means - some of the time they spend together might actually imply unspoken (and not-so-unspoken) problems...

- The Imperial Ewok

 

I apologize if this has been explained at some other point point, but I am confuzzled where McEwok writes...

Artoo, who rams the Imperial flagship into the Galaxy Gun in Empire's End, taking out an entire planet, the entire Imperial fleet, and several billion civilians, including most of the resettled survivors of Alderaan...

Uh, it's been awhile since I read DE, but how do you figure the Alderaanians bought the farm? Surely they weren't resettled on Byss.