Mara Jade and Shira Brie: Ripoff or Coincidence?

well if Genghis likes Mara, why are you guys waiting for him to come in and put her down?

 

Jaya, they were being sarcastic.

 

moi, sarcastic?

 

Ah...poor confused jaya02.

 

yes, i AM confused! stop it!

 

Most definitely.

Some things to note...

1. Timothy Zahn on prior Star Wars work:
"I did have some complaints with what had been done by other people. I had some problems with the Dark Horse Comics series..."

Timothy Zahn was aware of what had come before him.

2. Timothy Zahn and Marvel.
Timothy Zahn has done freelance work for Marvel Comics. Marvel Comics is the source where Shira Brie originated from.

3. The Emperor's Hand retcon:
Shira Brie was an Emperor's Hand prior to Mara Jade. The idea that the only thing which makes an Emperor's Hand is the name is a fallacy. The Emperor's Hand is a concept formed in part by name, form and function. Shira Brie was an Emperor's Hand in everything but name.

4. On Romance of Lumiya and Luke
Shira Brie and Luke Skywalker indeed had feelings for one another.

And the answer to this thread, using Mara Jade's entry from the Essential Guide to Characters:

Mara Jade's history is filled with twists and turnabouts, steeped in the battle between the dark side of the Force and the light side.
Nothing is known about her past. It is rumored that Emperor Palpatine took her in as a young girl and had her parents killed. He trained Mara as his personal, Force-sensitive assassin, teaching her how to use a lightsaber and how to use rudimentary Force-powers. The best of his protectors taught her hand-to-hand combat and marksmanship, and she was trained in spy techniques and political intrigue..."

Now take a line item comparison...
1. Shira Brie, taken in by Palpatine as a young girl, raised on his estate and later in his Imperial palace.
2. Shira Brie trained in Force powers and light-weapon combat.
3. Best of the Empire taught Shira Brie hand-to-hand skills. "Gained expert rating in all known forms of combat. Intelligence and coordination both extraordinary." (Marvel #63)
4. Commanded to destroy Luke Skywalker.
5. Luke Skywalker and Shira Brie ended up romancing one another.

Obviously, discussion of "red haired" women is ridiculous outside of a comparison between Shira Brie and Mara Jade. Red Sonja was not a Force-sensitive Emperor's Hand who was commanded to destroy Luke Skywalker and ended up falling in love. Mary Jane was not a Force-sensitive Emperor's Hand who was commanded to destroy Luke Skywalker and ended up falling in love. It's ridiculous to bring up other non-Force-sensitive-Emperor's Hands-commanded-to-destroy-Luke-Skywalker-yet-fell-in-love-with-him. The comparisons between Shira Brie and Mara Jade are more than merely skin deep. It's acknowledged that red-headed women are common in sci-fi/fantasy.

What is not common in sci-fi/fantasy are red-headed women who were raised by Emperor Palpatine, are Force-sensitive, were commanded to destroy Luke Skywalker...

Mara Jade was. But, before her, about a decade before her - was Shira Brie doing the exact same thing.

Mara Jade is a ripoff of Shira Brie, regardless of whether it was a coincidence or not.

 

Until you know the mind of your hated Zahn, you'll not be able to that with complete certainty.

Mara Jade is a rip off of Shira Brie. In your opinion.

And even if Zahn says that Mara's inspiration was Shira Brie, it still hardly matters.

 

ah. i see. Genghis just doesn't like Timothy Zahn. interesting, 'specially after all the good things i hear about his books.

 

Genghis12, could you supply information supporting the assumption that Zahn was talking about a time before he wrote HTTE in your ?Timothy Zahn on prior Star Wars work? reason. It would seem to me that if he was talking about stuff that he was learning about while he was writing his book, his words wouldn?t mean what you claim they do.

I?m not saying your wrong; just that your reasons weren?t enough to make me understand the situation as well as I would have liked.

 

Genghis, bless his black soul , has some good points with a lot of his opinions, but resentment for Zahn and some of his creations seems to be among his vices.

 

I thought Shira's backstory (being raised by Emperor Palpatine) was added in a magazine article years after Mara first appeared. Also, wasn't it just Luke who had a cursh on Brie? Wasn't she just playing along? And wasn't Brie insanely loyal to Darth Vader? Mara wasn't.

TC

 

Got any proof he resents Zahn? Because that is slander on his character.

 

the person who posted before said Genghis hated Zahn, so i thought........

 

If you disliked TPM and EP2, like some do, do you hate Lucas?

 

Rip-off.

BRIE of JADE however...

Okay, let's look at this from our chronological point of view, in other words, order of publication.

Early 80's
Marvel Comics:
Shira Brie, red/haired green eyed woman. Rebellion pilot with luke's fighter squadron (rogue squadron? I forget). Luke and her seem to be developing a emotional bond.

After getting some Tie Fighters from "the Ferret" that are equipped with hyperdrives and modified, (note: basing the equipped with hyperdrives on the fact everywhere else says Tie Fighter don't have them) to fire 6 normal shots then one big shot. Luke takes his 3 best pilots, Shira Brie among them, to take out an Imperial armanda with a creature called "the Teazl" on it. During the battle, Luke uses the force to determine if a Tie Fighter in his way is his enemey. The Force says yes, Luke kills it. Turns out its Shira

After doing some investigating, that included a conversation with Darth Vader, Luke learns that Shira was VADER's agent that was sent to either discredit him or kill/capture him. (I don't remember which one it was, I think it was kill)

Vader has Shira recovered from the remains of the space battle, and she then becomes Lumiya and then recieves force training from Vader

Lumiya is trained as Vader's sith apprentice, becomes lady of the sith after the battle of endor, makes a light-saber whip and nearly kills luke. Disappears into the shadows and is never heard from in the novels (damn)

1990's
A few earth years later
Mara Jade. Turns out she was raised by the Emperor has his personal force-assassain. She was ordered to kill Luke, didn't, killed his clone, and eventually falls in love with him, marries him, and has a kid with him.

Recent Reprints and updates to Shira's story that came out AFTER "Heir to the Empire"

Shira is raised as a Emperor's Hand, etc, creating confusion.


That's the cause of the confusion. Too physically similar imperial agents. Sexy red-heads that Luke had things with.

Very different over-all, then the updates make Shira more in line with Mara. However, because Shira was orginally published first, confusion sets in

****
Did anybody stop to think Luke might just have a thing for red-heads? (i.e Mara, Shira, Tenniel Djo, etc)
****

Or heck, that since all these Emperor's Hands are red-heads, the Emperor didn't have a thing for red-heads?

****

 

Everybody in Star Wars has a thing for red haired green eyed sexy hot as all h*ll women! Like I posted. Ares_God_of_Sith you hit the nail on the head there, with the publication dates and revewed material screwing everything up. In that case Brie is a rip of of Mara(runs and hides in mountens feering the day Gengis12 will find him)

Luke had things with. I don't know why but that just disturbed me...

poor poor jaya02 always picked on

 

JediJ...
"Genghis12, could you supply information supporting the assumption that Zahn was talking about a time before he wrote HTTE in your ?Timothy Zahn on prior Star Wars work? reason..."

The quote was in direct answer to the question:

Q: Was it difficult to work with a well-known universe which was already created by George Lucas, Brian Daley's Han Solo books, West End Games, the syndicated comic strips and others?

The source is the Timothy Zahn interview in SWAJ #1, West End Games, 1994. However, there's similar information in any number of internet chats/interviews he's done as well. Timothy Zahn was aware of expanded universe material prior to writing Heir to the Empire.

TalonCard...
"I thought Shira's backstory (being raised by Emperor Palpatine) was added in a magazine article years after Mara first appeared."

NOPE From Mind Spider, Star Wars #63 (Sept 1983):

"Born in Imperial Capital. Raised in Palace of Emperor Palpatine..."

This a full nine years before Mara Jade ever appeared, much less when we found about the rumors that she was raised by Palpatine in the original Essential Guide to Characters.

"Also, wasn't it just Luke who had a cursh on Brie?"

Fact: Both Shira Brie and Luke Skywalker kissed each other. It was a kiss initiated by Shira Brie to a surprised Luke Skywalker. Issue #61, Screams in the Void. And their romance didn't go unnoticed as everyone from Plif the Hoojib to Princess Leia all made comments on the growing attraction between the two from Issue #55 through #61.

"Wasn't she just playing along?"

There's nothing to suggest that was the case.

"And wasn't Brie insanely loyal to Darth Vader? Mara wasn't."

Irrelevent. Brie was loyal to Vader because Vader held special status. It's not like her ops for Vader were special. The Emperor had Black Hole work with Vader the first time we saw him similar to the way Brie was working for Vader.

jaya02...
"the person who posted before said Genghis hated Zahn, so i thought........"

Gee, and we know you should always believe what you read on the internet. That poster was horribly mistaken. Should I believe it if someone wrote "'jaya02' is ugly and her momma dresses her funny?"

You have to realize there's die-hard fans out there who can't handle criticism of their favorite author/creator/whatever. The fact that someone would produce an exact copy of something strikes at the heart of the originality of a writer. Obviously the idea that an author that someone really likes may lack originality to the point of creating an exact conceptual clone of someone else's prior work might be tough to accept for such a person.

 

Gee, and we know you should always believe what you read on the internet. That poster was horribly mistaken. Should I believe it if someone wrote "'jaya02' is ugly and her momma dresses her funny?"

You have to realize there's die-hard fans out there who can't handle criticism of their favorite author/creator/whatever. The fact that someone would produce an exact copy of something strikes at the heart of the originality of a writer. Obviously the idea that an author that someone really likes may lack originality to the point of creating an exact conceptual clone of someone else's prior work might be tough to accept for such a person.

jeez....give me a break ppl. i wasn't trying to accuse you Genghis. i was just confused. and next time, do you think you could explain that all in english. at least teh 2nd part. cuz it all looks like latin at 1 a.m. in the morning to me.

 

Genghis, I think I know you too well when it comes to Mara. Either that, or you read my first post and went with that.

 

In my eyes, Mara has one overwhelming advantage over Brie:

She wasn't invented in those horrid comics
(which i have read far too many of before i realized how....ok, ill stop right there x.x)

i personally dont mind "new and improved"...the only "clones" i dont like are corren horn and klye katarn, cause they just seem so "luke skywalker-ish" too me, and they are certainly not improvements on Luke...

 

Actually Kyle Katarn has more in common with Han Solo, than luke skywalker.

 

Well then, I retract my earlier doubts as to Brie's Marvel backstory. That said, I still don't think there's enough evidence to indicate that she was ever in love with Luke (I think that the fact that she was a Darksider and an Imperial agent, and continued to be so after her time with Luke shows that she was just using him.) Also, the fact that she was insanely loyal to Vader is an important characteristic that distinguishes her from Mara. Even *if* (I'm talking huge, Death Star sized "if" here) Mara was inspired by Shiria, she is hardly an "exact copy" most especially when the paths of both after ROTJ are taken into account.

I think you may have been a bit harsh towards jaya. But jaya, the fact that someone can communicate properly and understandably on these boards is something that should be commended.

TC

 

She wasn't invented in those horrid comics

Yeah, Mara Jade was invented in those horrid books!


Genghis: I love you, man! Just when I think you have fallen off the planet, you hit this thread like a fleet of Star Destroyers on a surprised Yuuzhan Vong battle group.

You rule, bro!

 

the books are not horrid! if they are horrid to you, why are you in the literature forum?
cuz really, books are the pure form of literature. comics are just a rip-off of them, using more pics than words to tell a story.

 

By 'horrid' books, he means the Zahn books.