Mara Jade and Shira Brie: Ripoff or Coincidence?

L_D_B...
"Any unbiased reader knows Zahn has his writing style that's somewhat on its own and decidably not in sink with a lot of other material in its character and methods, his Mara/Luke romance was bad by most standards."

Most likely by Zahn's standards as well:

"I'm always surprised when someone likes my books. By the time I'm finished with it I'm sick of the book and I don't know anyone who'd ever want to read it." -- Timothy Zahn

 

Well said Genghis, while I enjoy his contribution to Star Wars literature, from what I've heard of the man's statements, I don't think I'd like him much personally. Sounds arrogant and moody almost. That's my OPINION (I'll say that before the Zahn cultists flame me ). Arrogant in his "I didn't like other SW material" (paraphrase) and moody in what you just showed, Genghis.

 

But despite those things, I love his books.

I can seperate the man from his work.

 

Agreed.

 

Point taken Sturm.

Counterpoint... Zahn, the author has said so many things regarding the Star Wars universe and other Star Wars creators' works to endear me to him.

I have a new and completely original idea for a new Star Wars character.

It's a woman named Tara Blade. She will be a green-eyed, red-headed Emperor's Hand. She will of course be Force-sensitive, raised by the Emperor to be his ultimate weapon of aggressive negotiations. Her past prior to being raised by the Emperor will be a mystery. She will be trained by the best of the Empire in all forms of combat and espionage skills. She will have the physique of a dancer - not too stunning and able to blend in as either a new Rebel pilot recruit or as a debutante in the Emperor's court. Of course, I think she'll be 1.6m tall. As her last command, she will be given the task of destroying Luke Skywalker. Yet the two end up falling in love instead.

Oh yeah, she'll be the only Emperor's Hand. Anyone who believes otherwise is "either lying or conniving."

How's that for a completely new and original Star Wars character - Tara Blade, Emperor's Hand.

 

...raised by the Emperor to be his ultimate weapon of aggressive negotiations....

"Well, negotiations with a lightsaber."

 

Jaya02, a strong case could be made that the earliest written literature was actually cave paintings. Literature tells a story, whether it's true or fictional. And cave paintings can tell a story of what life in the stone ages was like. A painting depicting a deer-like animal being hunted is very much a story of that hunt. Comics are very much literature, just as much as books. Just like cave paintings, their useing pictures to tell a story. Yet unlike cave paintings, they also include dialouge. We're not having to try to interpert what the story is.

Unlike novels, comics can cut out so much of the written action because they use pictures to tell you what's going on, to give you a visual description. Novels need to given you written details of whats going on, of what people, animals, and things look like because otherwise you're left to wonder what things look like. Without a written description, you can't begin to picture things in your mind in a novel.

By using pictures, a comic does the same thing as a novel, and it can thusly cut down on the amount of space needed to tell a story in. How much of what we read in a novel is descriptive information of the surroundings and what's going on and how much is actual dialouge? The vast majority of novels are taken up in descriping things to allow us to put together an image in our mind of what everything looks like. Comics, on the otherhand, spend less time in telling us what's going on, and when they do, its only to help advance the story. The pictures help to tell the story, to give use a visual idea of what's happening.

However, for a long time comics have recieved a bad rap. Their just for kids and anyone in their teens or older who reads them must be a nerd or a geek because they have the time to waste with such things. Everyone else shouldn't waste their time with comics because they aren't literature. Yet this point of view is certainly changing amongst a greater portion of the population. I myself certainly held it until I was an adult. And only now the only comics I really pay any attention to are Star Wars.

But why the change? It seems more that a part of it is the changing art style used. To many like myself who have changed our opinions about the worth of comics as literature, the art style is more mature. That it has a different feel to it. The change may also have to do with the fact that comics also help to protray the world we live in. And it may have to do with the realiztaion that comics have been used for a long time, dating back before even the modern comic books first appeared. Political cartoons are a form of comics under a different name. And just like their cousins which are often their to entertain us, they use pictures in addition to words to tell their story.

 

I have yet to see any evidence that the two are "exact copies," other than the physical similarities (which are shared by many characters) and their similar position in service to the Emperor. The characters are completely different. The best example and most simple example of this is the ultimate distinction in Star Wars: one is good, the other is evil.

And I'm surprised that no one has brought up Domina Tagge, who, if I am not mistaken, was another red-haired love interest to Luke who turned out to be serving the Empire. Perhaps Marvel "ripped-off" their own character? Kidding.

TC

 

Luke and redheads. I can certainly understand the attraction, but you'd wonder if he would figure it out.

 

Well, he goes for blondes too. No one has mentioned Mira Volz or Tinaith Shire, for example. Anduvil even had orange hair. I really don't think Luke *has* a preference when it comes to hair color.

TC

 

Kier_Niminion: well you may be right. it depends on what you were implying on the caveman story. Literature is considered any peice of work, whether it being an essay, an editorial, a story, a novel, a poem, that is told through a language. If you consider the drawings the caveman painted in their caves as a language, tehn i'll give you the point. But in my mind, literature is what I said it was above; an essay, an editorial, a story, a novel, a poem, etc.

 

Ghengis
Mara Jade is a cheap, imitation (and perhaps even an exploitive imitation) regardless of the intent of Mara Jade's creator. No intent of theft is required for something to be an imitation of something.

The one things I am curious about with this statement is the cheap part of it. Yes both Shira and Mara share similar characteristics, but if it is an imitation it does not seem cheap to me. Does Zahn just make Mara do everything Shira does? I believe Mara does not continue to try and kill Luke throughout her life. She had a 5 year span where thay happpened. And actually it was more 1 year and then a huge break until she met up with the young lad again. She did not hunt him for 5 years searching him out and letting loose a volley of blaster fire on him. When Shira kissed Luke, does it mean she had feelings for him? Well if she did I would have thought she would not have tried to kill the poor boy later on. So I ask you Ghengis what is it that makes the Mara jade character a cheap knock off. During the 3 books in TTT I seem to see a whole lot of inner conflict with Mara, a lot of turmoil which I never saw with Shira. Shira always seemed to be playing a role in the comics. But that is one of many interpretations out there I am sure. The marvel comics since never really can give the same kind of explanations into the thought processes of Shira like we get with the Zahn novels. So I guess one can never truly define just how Shira felt about Luke or if she felt her whole life had been shattered by Mr Skywalker. Ghengis we will have to chat some day and perhaps I will be able to see things for your side or you see things from my side.

 

Kier_Niminion: well you may be right. it depends on what you were implying on the caveman story. Literature is considered any peice of work, whether it being an essay, an editorial, a story, a novel, a poem, that is told through a language. If you consider the drawings the caveman painted in their caves as a language, tehn i'll give you the point. But in my mind, literature is what I said it was above; an essay, an editorial, a story, a novel, a poem, etc.

Sometimes comic books have more words than some poems

 

yes that's true. but the amount of words doesn't really compare to the impact of a piece of literature. what i mean is that if the piece of literature has only 2 sentences in it, but changes the reader's views totally on a topic, then it has accomplished more than what another piece of literature with a lot of words but couldn't change the reader's views or influence the reader, or amaze the reader, could do.

basically, what i'm saying is it's not the amount of words that count. but the impact of what the reader as read.

but comic books usually don't have much writing, and even if they do, it doesn't expand your vocabulary, like most novels do, and it doesn't stimulate much in your brain.

 

jaya02, that all depends on what kinds of comic books you read. there are quite a few comic books that are on college reading lists with the classics of literature. to name a few, kingdom come(religion), the dark knight returns(law vs justice), and maus(the holocaust). just curious but what comics have you read before?

 

Um, Jaya, Knight made the comment on cave paintings, not me.

 

oh. oops! sorry Kier.

 

Ghengis wrote...
Mara Jade is a cheap, imitation (and perhaps even an exploitive imitation) regardless of the intent of Mara Jade's creator. No intent of theft is required for something to be an imitation of something.

I have to take Obi-wans Love Child on this one. I just started looking at this thread, and unfortunately know little information on Shira, but I know lots on Mara. I can't speak for Timothy Zahn personally, but I enjoy writing myself, and can say that I have had several coincidences regarding characters and plots in my own work. I will say it is possible that Zahn copied Shira's character, but don't forget one important thing in this thread...

The man's an author. He lives off of creativity and telling stories. If he's any type of good author, (which I believe he is), he can create an original character without taking someone else's. Once again, going on personal experience, I find creating characters fun. If Zahn likes to write, (which we know he does), then he probably enjoys this concept as well. Using other people's characters is actually quite difficult. It's far more restricting than just making your own.

I believe it's just bad luck that both Mara and Shira have so much in common. BTW, just how many red-heads and blonds has Luke dated? That boy gets around, doesn't he?

 

jaya...
Star Wars would not exist the way it was without artwork. In terms of expanded universe products, the axiom: A picture is worth a thousand words certainly fits. A single 32-page comic from Marvel could easily fill a many-thousand word novel. It is the artwork which hearkens back to the roots of Star Wars - the concept sketches of Ralph McQuarrie, Nilo Rodis-Jamiro and even Douglas Chiang. But if those pictures formed the foundation of the Star Wars movie saga - pictures without style, it is the comic books and other artwork which forms the foundation of the expanded universe. Archie Goodwin, Roy Thomas, etc. all added the Star Wars style, infinitely enriching the Star Wars universe. It is these pictures which unlock the imagination much more than any explicit words can ever accomplish, for comic books are as much a story between the scenes as they are in them. It is tapping the reader's imagination where Star Wars comic books excel. Movement, color, artistic style - none of which can ever be effectively be tapped simply by prose alone - all require the reader's own imagination to be fully realized. It is all of these complex factors in combination, plus the simple prose of novels which make comic books a much more effective medium to tell a fictional story like the Star Wars saga. Comic adaptations and/or comic books are not the right fit for all genres, but for epic fantasy, it is one of the best mediums. However, I admit, some people are not adept at picking out the more subtle nuances of the art and completely overlook the style, color, plotting, inking and other effects. That requires one to open up their imagination to the worlds being shown. I suspect that's why they simply see a "funny book" when they read comics. I'm not saying all people who dislike them lack imagination, however such people certainly exist.

EDIT: IIRC, isn't the Dark Empire II TPB foreward (the one by Ralph McQuarrie) pretty much about the power of the artistic style of Kam Kennedy and the Dark Empire series? If you get a chance in a bookstore, jaya, you should check read it.

Comics and Star Wars go hand in hand. The medium is by many accounts a better fit than even written prose.

 

I think she hates me, Kier. She appologized to you, and that's understandable since she mistakenly attributed my post to you.

 

>but comic books usually don't have much writing, and even if they do, it doesn't expand your >vocabulary, like most novels do, and it doesn't stimulate much in your brain.

That would depend on what words were used, wouldn't it? And how do you know this? Have you done a study of major comic titles? And let me pull up a question and statement of yours from earlier in this discussion:

"and next time, do you think you could explain that all in english. at least teh 2nd part. cuz it all looks like latin at 1 a.m. in the morning to me."

You obviously weren't trying to expand your vocabulary or stimulate your brain there, now were you? Practice what you preach, if you please.

TC

 

It was the Foreward to Dark Empire II TPB by Ralph McQuarrie.

Jaya, you should try to check out what he has to say regarding Star Wars comics. Why should you listen to some guy named Ralph McQuarrie when it comes to Star Wars, you ask? He opens up with...

"Since I am, aside from the vision in the mind of George Lucas, the first person to see Darth Vader, a lightsaber, Artoo-Detoo, and many other things that make up the Star Wars world, I've decided to write this foreward..."

He is the man behind the concept art for the original trilogy. He knows a bit about how much power a visual media is for Star Wars. It may help expand you mind.

 

I don't agree with the fact that comics don't expand your mind. Any story, idea, or theme can impact a person in various different ways. However, comics can't influence the imagination nearly as well as a piece of literature can. That's just my opinion, but comics, just like movies, come with visual aid. Anything you see in the comic, you must take as the vision in the story, as opposed to a novel, where things can be interprated differently. You, the reader, get to use your own mind to create the picture. Take the example of a character. Even if you say, "she's about 25, has long curly blond hair and brown eyes," the individual reader will make up a vision in their own heads to how that discription can be put together. Comics can't do that. Neither can movies. Only literature can stimulate the imagination in that aspect. Other things such as forshadowing, thinking of what the ending will be, what plot twists there are, and how to undertand the story itself, all forms of story creation can acheive. All should be respected.

However, TalonCard, Jaya didn't call you an idiot or anything. She was merely stating her opinion. We start taking these things so personal, it won't be any fun. IMO.

 

I don't understand why more people cannot enjoy comics and novels hand-in-hand.

My love of literature really began with Robotech comics in the late '80s. Then I got into SW novels, and awhile later, the SW comics.

It's all just various media showing the same characters and universe.

 

Knight,

I think she hates me, Kier. She appologized to you, and that's understandable since she mistakenly attributed my post to you.

Same icon, so maybe she just made a mistake.

Sturmy,

My love of literature really began with Robotech comics in the late '80s.

You poor, poor man- they were such crap. I have the first few and gave when I realized how much I was paying for vs. how little I actually got. Great TV series, even though Harmoney Gold hacked the hell out of to make three completely unrelated series fit with each other.

Then I got into SW novels, and awhile later, the SW comics.

Better, much better.