ST Mark Hamill (Luke Skywalker) In Episode IX

This sums up neatly the backstory problem for me of the ST to date. New challenges and conflicts? Sure. Turned up to 111 because 11 was just not enough? Nope.

 

Might be of interest here too:
https://boards.theforce.net/threads/the-episode-ix-thread.50048605/page-93#post-55739902

 

Its the curse of Our Lady of Perpetual Discontent.

 

Precisely.

 

Couple of things:

The PT had to end badly, thus it was more accepted as it led to the OT.

There's a world of difference between having the OT cast in a supporting role - I think that's mostly accepted - and putting the characters through a shredder, which is far less so.

Separately to these two points is the hard to bridge gulf between those who want continuing adventures and those who want an end of saga story.

 

Surely part of this is perspective and the order in which these films were viewed/released.

Meaning, we met Yoda as a burnt out, reluctant, seemingly crazy (at first), shell of his former self living in a sad swamp. We met an Obi-Wan Kenobi as an isolated hermit divorced of his former identity decades removed from his former prestige/glory.

Imagine if the Prequels came first. Would fans so readily embrace what had become of Obi-Wan and Yoda in this case? Or would they say that these character had been "(put) through a shredder.."?

 

Exactly right.

 

That is a very valid point, one I hadn't considered.

However I would counter with - Obi-Wan and Yoda hadn't become jerks. If anything they are more relaxed than in the PT. Luke has become a cynical hardass.

 

Also Luke and Han were largely apart throughout two of the three OT films, so it's weird to see the notion of them appearing together in the ST as something only to do with repetitive nostalgia. And Luke and Lando never really interacted at all, so that seems like another missed opportunity to explore new territory through the classic characters. Of course, it's the filmmakers' prerogative not to go this route if they felt too much attention on the old cast would negatively affect the new characters. But if you're nostalgia-mining puppets, X-Wings vs. TIES, deserts, and now perhaps Palpatine, I think fan expectation/preference for a bigger original cast presence is something the filmmakers have to tolerate.

 

We didn't leave Yoda and Obi Wan on a happy ending, we left them going into exile with the Emperor ascendant. We saw them put through a shredder already. The last time we see Luke, Han, Leia and Lando, they've won the battle and had a happy ending. Then we're supposed to just imagine "stuff happened."

Then don't put them in the movie. Or don't sell the movie on "come see your favorites!" and tell me that you wrote the movie to "delight" fans and give me TFA and TLJ.

 

Even despite the exile, Yoda still easily trumped Luke and Obi Wan was portrayed as a dignified badass. Compared to them TLJ!Luke still looked a whole lot worse.

 

Story chronology versus order the films were made it is something of an eternal discussion.

For myself, I go with order the films were made but recognise others will go with story chronology instead. It was the same on Legends, where you had later and earlier set stories.

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Respectfully, I disagree. Obi-wan wasn't a jerk, though he was quite content to accompany Luke on a (fabricated) stroll down memory lane while the Empire murdered his aunt and uncle. You could say he was protecting him. But, from a certain point of view, you could also say he was ruthlessly recruiting Luke. And Yoda WAS a jerk--initially and needlessly deceptive, reluctant to train him at all, unstinting in his constant disapproval, and downright scary at times. Was it Luke's fault that he was left on Tatooine so he's "too old" and prone to recklessness? No-- that would be the fault of the two Jedi masters who failed to defeat the Sith the first go 'round.

I'm really just playing devil's advocate--I love these films and their characterizations, obviously. But I completely agree that had the PT come first and been the beloved formative films of a generation, the response to some of the OT characterizations of PT characters would have been deeply critical. The ST characterizations of OT characters, and some fan responses to same, would seem to bear this out...

 

I am curious as to how a person did find the story works going eps 1 to 6 in chronological order.

It's not an experience I can have as I saw the OT first.

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I do agree Obi-Wan and Yoda's situations would likely not sit well with audiences in an alternate "ANH '99" universe.

But Obi-Wan and Yoda are still warmer and more charming - both compared to their PT counterparts, and to Luke in TLJ.
And they teach Luke everything they know despite the fact that he is the son of (one of two) people who destroyed everything they held dear. How do Luke's and Kylo's failures reflect negatively on Rey like Luke implies?

Obi-Wan likely had no idea Owen and Beru were in danger until he and Luke discover the slaughtered Jawas.
He pushes Luke to join him, yes, in fact Imo it is one of the perspective "point of view" "light"-mirrors to Palpatine's insistent recruiting of Anakin in ROTS.
But Obi-Wan puts Luke's decision to give up farming and join him entirely on Luke - "You must do what you think is right, of course."
And ultimately confidently leaves Luke's future in Luke's own capable hands - "Your destiny lies along a different path than mine."

And Yoda was just testing Luke. To me, I think deep down he had always intended to train Luke at some stage.
Luke for Rey in TLJ however, not so much. I understand he comes around eventually though, but it was a little late in the game unfortunately.
Even though Yoda is seemingly dismissive of Luke, he still seems somewhat happy to see him arrive Imo.
"Great warrior, oh! Hehe... wars not make one great."
"Father... powerful Jedi was he, hmm powerful Jedi."

He takes Luke back to his home with promise of "introducing" him to Yoda afterall.
And maybe I'm biased, but he is very likeable for most of ESB.

Can't expect him to be upbeat at all times after what he has been through, he has a lot of direly important knowledge and precaution to pass on.

Luke however refuses to train Rey for real, and while he does impart some force knowledge on her, he is generally dismissive of her and repeatedly asks her to leave the island.
The characterisations going from PT to OT are far more fleshed-out and appropriate.
It works to me because we know how they got there.

Obi-Wan and Yoda haven't abandoned their faith due to their own perceived failures. They are kind of just in metaphorical stasis, waiting for the right time where they can set up the next generation triumphing where they failed.
With Luke we don't fully see why he is that way. At least so far.

 

There also wasn`t a moment where Luke and Yoda had a skirmish and Yoda ended up in the mud with Luke triumphantly standing over him, going "okay muppet, tell me what I want to know" and Yoda caved. All justifications and explanations aside, that was a bad, bad visual for a supposed Jedi Master. They refered to Luke as such in TLJ and then showed why he seriously didn`t deserve the moniker.

That`s why even if the character has FG cameos as a supposedly "wise Jedi Master" in episode 9, I couldn`t reconcile it with the pitiful creature I saw in TLJ. If Crait doesn`t work as a redemptive moment, you`re still left with the broken version and just pretending everything is fine now in ep 9 doesn`t work.

Though from the trailer it looks more like his role is to give a bit of exposition/validation on how Rey is now even more super than before so he isn`t needed anymore. I mean, what could a resounding failure like him, who hasn`t even read the books, bring to the table when Rey has "a thousand generations of Jedi inside her? And that is on top of her basically already being a Super-Sayan before this. On the other end, if rumours are to be believed, he seems to still work on Kylo Ren`s "redemption". Maybe if I was interested in or attached to Kylo, if Luke and him ever had a relationship that was portrayed onscreen and I was sad to see desolved by events and/or especially if I had any wish for a Kylo redemption instead of a slow agonizing death - then that might entice me.

 

Everything that has happened in TLJ and will could potentially happen in TROS could damage the narrative running through I to VII. May be they should do a Special Edition of Twin Suns episode of Rebels.

 

It's not empty. Sidious was still defeated in ROTJ, it's just something of him survived. It wouldn't be possible to defeat him ultimately without that preliminary defeat, and Luke is still involved in the work towards his defeat just in a different capacity.

 

But ultimately it won't be Luke who avenges Obi-Wan and Maul, it'll be Rey or Ben or both.

 

It will be that a lot of people played a part instead of just one special person. But that doesn't make the special people less special, just not exclusively special.

 

Yoda acted crazy on purpose for 5 minutes just to test Luke. After that, everything out of his mouth was wise, intentional, thoughtful and blew Luke's mind.

It was apparent early on in their appearances that Yoda and Obi-Wan were waiting on Luke, waiting on the Force, and that they hadn't given up on the Force and all good things in the universe. And both of them used the Force liberally in Luke's presence to show him what it means and how it is used.

There's really no comparison with Luke in TLJ and them in the OT. Night and Day.

 

You can say that about ROTJ but the victory isn't as much associated with Lando, Wedge, Acbar, Nien Nunb, Han, Leia, Chewie, Threepio, Artoo etc... as it is with Luke and to a lesser extent Anakin.

 

I was never a fan of the "if you squint, you can see a little helper role for character x, ain`t that grand?" thing. Especially when then another character(s), I can`t stand, get handed the actual visual victory that truly counts. At this point Luke in nu!canon only has the first Death Star and ROTJ which is getting flimsier by the second. After ROTJ, they haven`t told me one thing about him that was positive or that he accomplished. Then he doubled down on it by making it a net negative even with Kylo Ren. And all through his death, I still haven`t seen anything worthwhile from him in the two ST movies. Episode 9 will have maybe three or four scenes, I think, and I doubt he will do anything worthwhile in them. Haven`t seen any leaks or rumours even hinting at that.

But I think this is exactly how it`s gonna happen, the special victory going to Rey or trash like Kylo, because basically it is the entire story of the ST. It`s a do-over of the OT and for that to work, you have to first completely nullify the OT. Now since this is supposed to be the final chapter, it is highly unlikely I`ll get my wish and see new characters swoop in who will tie the ST characters to their chariot and drag them all over a new series of films in their triumph march in a "how do you like them apples?" way.

 

I don't think throwing Sidious down a reactor shaft to save Luke is a little helper role. That is just such an exaggeration. That's a big role that would have nearly destroyed Sidious.

 

"Nearly" being the keyword, if it's only nearly, it's a miss overall. Either you actually defeat him or not.
And I was talking about Luke's role. Which, if Palpatine is back, is what? It makes his part of ROTJ pretty obsolete. I love Anakin but in and of itself, I don't consider his redemption the big endgoal, not if it didn't lead to a real victory over Palpatine.

Just like "Luke is now one with the force" means absolutely nothing to me in terms of relevance for the character. It's a thing that happened after he died.