Mary Sue & Star Wars

Hello,

I have been reading of late and with interest, all the discussion about "Mary Sue". Many people believe that Mara Jade is a "Mary Sue" of Timothy Zahn. Has Tim ever stated if this is correct, publically?

Doing more research on the subject, I came across this article: Mary Sue. I wonder if anyone wants to add in Star Wars examples?

Speaking of which, who are the other "Mary Sue" characters that have long been speculated in the Expanded Universe?

 

I seriously doubt that any author would want to admit that they created a Mary Sue-ish character. It is the condition of creating (usually unintentionally) an absurdly perfect character in spite of practically everything they face. So, Zahn would never state that publically because he probably doesn't see Mara as a Mary Sue.

 

Oh God, this is just going to devolve into another Mara Jade bashing thread isn't it?

Anyway I would like to interject something that Karen Traviss said in another thread on the board:

and now to run far far away.

 

PLEASE no! I just want to debate and discuss the topic of a Mary Sue. No more, no less.

 

I don't understand why this is so important to , why it gets brought up so often. Most of the fantasy genre is just that, isn't it?

 

Just read my sig, where Karen Traviss does a wonderful job of taking the mickey out of those that state that Mara Jade is a "Mary Sue" for Zahn.

 

Still, can't a Mary Sue also be technically a character that the author would want to be?

(and no, that ain't meant as a jab to any author at all )

 

No, actually she's just a Super Being, the daughter of Admiral Daala's host and the Chosen One who just happened to marry her half-brother.

 

I think that the Sue-bashers believe a Gary/Mary Sue is someone overly powerful and better than any other character. In Star Wars, this usually means that the original character is better than the filmic characters. Therefore, I would say that many people who call Mara and Ferus Sues really mean that they don't like how powerful/good/beautiful/whatever they are described as, rather than how close they resemble the author. Calling Ferus and Mara Sues is odd based on Karen's description of a Sue, because the authors are the opposite sex as the character.

I really don't consider Mara a Mary Sue, and don't have any opinion of Ferus. However, one character I would say is a Gary Sue (the overpowered original character definition, most likely) is Ken Palpatine. He's portrayed as knowing more/being better than Luke Skywalker, and is a low point of GoDV.

 

The whole argument is completely rubbish. If it weren't for a certain "Gary Stu" there would be no Star Wars to begin with.

 

Well know that i know what a marry sue is, I'ld have to say that Mara is not one. Thrawn could well be. Any character who is a tactical genius is really, because any "brillaint stratagy" has too be made by the auther.

 

Mara is an model Mary Sue. It doesn't matter who wrote it. It's HOW she's portrayed that makes a her a Mary Sue.

Here is the list of requirements:

A Mary Sue may be tougher, smarter, and cooler than the established characters and so win their admiration.

Check. She can fly anything, shoot anything, beat up anything, remember things from 25 years ago, a code to a door, for example. Kids all love her and flock to her, because she's soooooo cool!!!!!!

Alternately, the Sue may be nicer, sweeter, and more charming than the established characters (often despite being tortured by a tragic past) and win their love. Either way, the setting's protagonists are upstaged by the new character's perfection. If this new character dies in the story (typically as an act of self-sacrifice), there is often extensive grieving.

MMmmmm Hmmm.

In Mara's case, she just has to be ill and people become hysterical. "Oh no! Chewie's dead! Mara! Mara is ill, she can't take it!!!!" Mara smiles when ill,a nd everyone is dazzled by what a strong, brave, incredible, wonderful woman she is. "She smiled!!"



Female Mary Sues are abundant in both fanfiction and actual series, particularly anime.

Yes. Always red haeds too, it seems.

Common traits of Mary Sues:

* Has only sympathetic flaws; Mary Sues may be paraplegic, or dangerously naïve, but are very rarely selfish or petty-minded

Yep: Innocently serving an evil Sithlord, and uses darkside, but never dark. Loyal like Jedi......

* Can do no wrong - or, if she does do anything wrong, has strong justification for it

Of course! Mara's never done anything wrong in her life, that's why she gets to lecture all the idiots. Luke deserved to be lectured by her. She's the voice of truth since she was an assassin. That is the explanation the absolves her all wrongs, now and forever.

* Unique abilities

Like being the only person that could hear the Emperor's voice? The only persont hat can heal herself froma spore?
(Of course, any force user could hear him, he is the strongest force user, but Mara will never see it that way)

* Distinctive physical features (odd-coloured eyes, birthmarks, scars, etc.)

Like "Red gold blazing flaming golden apple red" hair, that never greys? Like brilliant emerald glowing grassy green eyes? She's so beautiful, that even droids short circuit around her, no man can resist, even Han envies her ship? Her skin is like milk, she has the body of a stripper, no sagging! She's 55. But she still looks like a 20 year old?

* Owns an unusual pet (especially, 'one that only she could tame')

Luke...

* Deliberately exotic name

Check.

* Name based on that of the author (such as an anagram)

I guess Thrawn got that one. *cough*

*Cultural/racial background very different from her peers (often adopted out of her culture)

Like being "raised by the Emperor" to be an assassin at 13?

* Deeply traumatic past

Depends on the proximity of the nearest galactic leader. She oes from constant pining to seeing herself as some sort of victim.

* Attitudes contemporary to the author in a setting where these are unheard of

Yeah, like Palpatine being a hero, when he killed the family of everyone she associates with, but that doesn't stop her open praise of tyranny, as she was part of it.

* Close relationship with a major canonical character (long-lost brother, etc.)

I rest my case.

All THREE of them can't fawn over her enough. Now she's considered, somehow, by Del Rey, to be a "core character", though I sure can't remember seeing her in the OT. She's such a Mary Sue, even the people at DR can't rememeber life without her. I sure as hell can. I was 20 when she showed up (as a bit character, like a female Dash Rendar).

* Unwanted connection to a canonical antagonist (virtuous daughter who rebels against her evil father, etc.)

[face_raised

 

Funny... More Half the people in the GFFA fit a majority of those characteristics.

 

And so it begins....

 

*yawns*

It sure does.

 

That is quite true. Leia's such a Mary Sue, God...and so is Padmé. And Anakin! Man, what a Gary Stu! And I haven't even gotten to Han and Luke yet.

*sits back and makes popcorn to enjoy the show*

 

Padme is not a Mary Sue, nor her husband. If they were portrayed like Mara, they would have been loved and praised. Instead, they seem almost universally hated.

 

Is it true that Michael A. Stackpole = Corran Horn? (Well, he did 'model' for him, after all!)

 

http://boards.theforce.net/The_Saga/b10476/

You are of course welcome to count the number of A/P fanfictions.

 

And that Palpatine guy-- like anyone could go around without revealing they were a Sith Lord! And then fight Yoda? Yeah right.

And Jango Fett, geesh. Whoever created that character wasn't thinking straight. "He's so perfect, he's a great clone template, blah blah blah". He even fought Obi-Wan and survived!

Then there's Jar-Jar. I mean, no way a Gungan out of nowhere becomes a General, and then next thing you know he's calling for Emergency Powers in the Galactic Republic Senate! Emergency Powers for Chancellor Gary Stu himself, mind you.

 

Padme is not a Mary Sue, nor her husband. If they were portrayed like Mara, they would have been loved and praised. Instead, they seem almost universally hated.


*yawns*

It sure does.

Yawn all you want to.

But Mara fits every single required trait, except being anime, and I almost beg to differ there, since there's no real image of Mara except comic book.
That model was only on five or six cards, and not everyone plays them.
Try reading the artical first. Even you have to admit it.


You are of course welcome to count the number of A/P fanfictions.

They are written by Hayden Christensen fangurls. And mostly the same 12 or so girls. Most Anakin fans are HC gushers.

And Jango Fett, geesh. Whoever created that character wasn't thinking straight. "He's so perfect, he's a great clone template, blah blah blah". He even fought Obi-Wan and survived!

What's so good about him? He's just a guy. And he loses his head. He dies. A Mary Sue never dies. They always come out on top. None of the Fetts came out on top. They had to scrounge around on the underbelly of society. I don't even think Boba is that bad. He's a kid. Should he pay for his childhood for the rest of his life? Han Solo was a job, I don't think he thought much more about it than that. Han borders on Gary Stuism, but his bad luck keeps him from going full blown.

 

Yawn all you want to.

Okay.

*yawns*

 

Because Lord knows that Anakin's so universally hated. Would you like me to show you the PT boards next?

 

Hey, I'll freely admit that Mara fits some of the tendencies, especially when she isn't handled well by the author. She isn't the best character, far from it, but I'm not going bash her constantly. And you have to admit, you mara-bashers complain a lot.

 

Now that is funny! Not to mention Palpatine being brought back to life!