Saga Midichlorians and blood transfusions

The way I understand it, and I realize others see it differently, is that physical elements such as blood and limbs do not carry with them force ability. Someone is neither "drained of force-ability" if they donate blood, nor is their potential strength in the force compromised or weakened when they have a limb or limbs severed (yes, this is my opinion). No, I do not believe that Darth Vader was "weakened" in his ability to use the force post-Mustafar and suit, and get no sense of this at all from the films, quite the opposite really.

Midichlorians are such a misunderstood (and hated by so many) part of I-III, but I was never bothered. To me, they gather around someone who can wield the force, like moths to a flame, but they themselves are not the force. To equate blood matter or total body mass with strength in the force due to midichlorian concentration seems asinine, and seems to go against everything we are presented with about the force. Yoda is so small but is very powerful; "luminous beings are we, not this crude matter," and so on.

 

I was under the impression that midichlorians are like an element of the blood that are perpetuated by genetics and ideal host conditions.
Thus, someone can be given a blood transfusion and may get a "boost", but they would not maintain said boost because they do not have the physiological ability to regenerate midichlorians.

Yes, that could be relative to blood volume as well. Someone with limbs would have more blood volume than someone whose body had to adjust to the reduced volume capacity of a limbless body.

 

Of course they themselves are not the Force. But their presence is the reason someone can wield the Force in the first place.

Of course, there's more going on there than simply loss of body mass; he was also severely burned and ended up on a form of life-support with machine-controlled breathing. I have a tendency to connect this with examples we've seen in the Legends EU where ( temporary ) physical injury interferes with a character's Force ability. I also tend to think of the concept of "chi" and whatever parallel it may have in SW; if your limbs are amputated it probably has effects on your "chi", and after all you must feel the Force flowing through you. Lucas had said in Rolling Stone that "the road to the Force is through the breath" and "impotency is cutting off hands and legs and arms".

 

While I do think highly of Lucas and respect his ideas and work, he's certainly not infallible nor is any other artist. I don't listen to his remarks about Star Wars, the characters, and so on outside the work itself (see also "death of the author"). He may see things one way at one point, but that doesn't mean that this is what the films are communicating, and his statements are no more valid than anyone else's.

Just because Lucas stated something about how things are in the GFFA does not mean that is the last word, and there is no more to be said on the matter. This shuts down inquiry and discussion. Furthermore, I find it a much richer experience to meet a work on its own terms rather than having to rely on the author/creator to provide the real interpretation or meaning to us afterword. To me, and I realize others may not see things this way, the films communicate nothing about losing strength in the force due to loss of blood or body--the force seems like nothing so crude, material, and mundane.

 

The Kubrick approach. I like that too.

 

The Force is everywhere and in everything, but one's ability to use the Force is and has been determined by genetics for quite some time. Vader is weaker because he is more machine than man, but that doesn't mean that he isn't a slouch in battle. He was able to lift an Imperial walker on Lothal, after all. But what he cannot do is fight Palpatine one-on-one. He cannot fight like Palpatine did. He's still strong in the Force, but he is a shadow of his former self. To connect to the Force, there need to be connectors. An antenna is needed to transmit radio signals and to receive said signals. What Yoda said to Luke has more to do with the spiritual side of the Force, which the Jedi care more for than the physical side that the Sith covet. For the Sith, such physical limitations that diminish one's ability to use the Force to its fullest, is seen as an issue and is why Vader remained subservient and why Palpatine wanted Vader eliminated.. For the Jedi, they see it as an obstetrical to overcome.

The only part of Vader that was stronger post Mustafar, is that he has suppressed his humanity until he sees Luke, thus he is more bloodthirsty.

 

That's one way to read the films, Sinister, and I can see how many people can draw those conclusions. I, however, see things as we are presented with them differently. I think that if we didn't have all of the statements outside of the films about this then it would not be such an "accepted" POV. Yes, Vader still serves the Emperor, but I think the whole dynamic, especially between the end of III, the end of V, and all of the interactions w/ Luke, DV, and the Emperor in VI become much more interesting if DV is not, in fact, a weaker Sith than Palpatine. I think Palpatine still is holding secrets from DV, using them in part as a carrot to bait him along, and DV certainly starts to vacillate in his commitment to the dark side throughout RotJ, which we see in a big way in the Endor Luke/Vader scene to the end.

But different strokes for different folks. There is no "this is how it is and I must force everyone to agree to my version!" My appreciation of SW deepens greatly because of the rich diversity of opinion. Now, I also appreciate that people want to advance their opinions, nothing against that.

 

That makes sense to me.

Generally I always thought of midichlorians as similar biologically to mitochondria (which exist on our universe). Mitochondria are tiny organisms which have their own DNA and live inside our cells. They are responsible, interestingly, for the power or energy in the cell. (They make ATP molecules from ADP molecules and phosphates. ATP molecules act as a chemical source of energy which can used for all sort of things the cells need to do. They are like tiny molecular batteries. ) Motochondria live in most of the cells of the body, however they are not found in red blood cells by the time the RBC's are in the blood stream (they are there in earlier stages of an RBC's life when it's forming). I can't remember where I read it but I think GL once said that midichlorians were kind of based on mitochondria. If this is the case then a blood transfusion would pass on a tiny amount of midichlorians in the whilte cells which are also in the blood but it would not be significant or even, possibly, measurable so shouldn't confer any additional force ability.

(Sorry about all the phosphates stuff - I used to be a biology teacher and I got a bit carried away!)

 

Why does Luke's Dagobah training seem, at times, like he's training for the Olympics? We might also ask: why do we never see fully cyborged Jedi - essentially, motile brains in jars, like the B'omarr monks?

 

Jo B1 Kenobi , no need to apologise but I'm a microbio major so I am totally understanding of mitochondria lol.
I think that would be another possibility. I don't know why, but I always imagined midis living outside the blood cells but in other cells...which is probably incorrect, but, y'know.

 

According to Qui-Gon they reside in all living cells.

 

That's why it is a blood test that Qui-gon does on Anakin after he's cut himself and not a skin test.

 

Blood is not just red blood cells.

EDIT: Though I realise now that Tapatalk ate my "red" that I had typed above. Sigh.
The problem here is now going to turn into the argument of are RBCs really "alive", because they don't really meet the criteria of "life", yet they function as a part of a living being.

 

Perhaps because Jedi do not want to prolong their physical lives? Did my statement seem like this would be something they could want? I am not arguing that someone only needs a brain to be "alive," just as I am arguing that someone with amputations is just as much a person as someone without.

Yoda says in RotS that "death is a natural part of life," and I don't see anyone who is following the Jedi way asking for their organs to be preserved, B'omarr-style. Returning post-death as a spirit is not the same as wanting to cling to physical life, not as I see things anyway.

As far as Luke's physical training on Dagobah, I feel that this is presented to us in a clever way to show his progression. Seek to control the body (physical training), seek to control the mind (lift x-wing), and only after having "learned control" and faced one's fears can one seek to influence events for the better in the galaxy (leave Dagobah to try and help Han and Leia) or you will be manipulated into evil's clutches. Also, Yoda pushes Luke to train his body to teach Luke discipline.

 

Keep in mind that all cells contain midiclorians, not just blood cells. A blood transfusion might cause a blip, but I suspect that it wouldn't be that significant, and that it would sort itself out soon enough.

 

Kind of a question of perspective, though, isn't it? Why was Anakin so strong in the Force? Because he had a high midiclorian count. Why did Anakin have such a high midiclorian count? Because the Force influenced the midiclorians to create him. So, he had a high midiclorian count because he was the Chosen One.

Ultimately, the midiclorians respond to the will of the Force. So Anakin was as powerful as he was because that was the will of the Force. His high midiclorian count was just an indicator of that. And if that is true of Anakin, I don't see why something similar but just less extreme wouldn't be true of everyone who is unusually Force sensitive.

 

I've always hated how the Thrawn books made Force-sensitivity clonable. Force-sensitivity being clonable opens up too many cans of worms for my liking.

 

Now I'm wondering if stem cells can have midis, and if their use can induce Force sensitivity, or midis only reside in differentiated cells. Great.
What do you think about that, Jo B1 Kenobi ?

I see no problem with the cloning. If midichlorians spawn naturally in vivo, then in vitro through cloning seems plausible. The living cells should meet the same parameters.
I don't think that was the biggest problem with the cloning, in my humble opinion.

 

I think Anakin is supposed to be a special case. In any event, if the Force wills someone to have a certain midichlorian count at birth, afterward it's still that midichlorian concentration giving them the ability to manipulate the Force. And in cases such as Skywalker offspring a high innate Force strength is said to be virtually guaranteed.

 

It's not a case of the Force or the Sith trying to make the Midichlorians be what they were in Anakin. Rather, it is the byproduct of how he was created. Because Shmi did not engage in intercourse to conceive the natural way, the Midichlorians wound up being so excessive as part of the cell division that precipitated his conception that the end result was a high count. It was still up to Anakin to train diligently enough that he could challenge Palpatine and best him in battle. But he didn't because he became arrogant and Palpatine twisted his mind to avoid that happening.

 

I never thought midichlorians had anything to do with blood. I thought they were micro organisms that allowed sentient beings - even plants, insects and other animals connect to the Force. That's it.

 

Hmmm, interesting question. Mitochonria (in our galaxy) do exist in undifferentiated stem cells and there is research at the moment which suggests that mitochondria may even take part in the process of controlling differentiation. So if mitchonria are similar to midichlorians then I guess I would expect midichlorians to be eminently clonable. Therefore force sensitivity should be clonable. For me the problem with having a biological model for force sensitivity is that it then makes certain things like cloning follow logically whether we like it or not and whether it makes a good story or not. That said I'm sure a good writer could work around it well enough.

 

It does. They just happen to be in blood cells.

 

I do not believe that someone could become Force Sensitive via blood transfusions from Jedi or those that are Force Sensitives. They might have a very slightly higher count/sensitivity for a short time before the midi-chlorians die.

Depending if the midi-chlorians replicate if you want to become Force Sensitive your best bet would be to perform a bone marrow transplant.

 

My impression is that midichlorians are in all living cells but may be less concentrated in blood.