New Republic Capital Ships - still sorting out the mess... (Fleet Junkies- HO!)

Darth_Guy posted on 4/27/05 8:07pm

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[link=http://www.mozilla.org/products/firefox/central.html]Firefox.[/link] [face_batting]

Oh, and [link=http://derekdev.com/mozilla/ignbq/download.php]this plugin[/link] lets me do the pretty quotes.
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Man, got it. This is the best thing since sliced cheese! The days of manually putting [b]Brett[/b] and [b]Noldor[/b] ... ah, wait a second. Crap, now I can't change the title!!!!!!!!!!!

It looks like I'd have to edit it every time, just to change the title....[face_sad]

 

There are also various difficulties in determining the size and scope of the Imperial Navy based on Expanded Universe materials.

Lord Vader?s authority over the Navy in ANH is unknown.
Tarkin was clearly in command of everyone, including Vader, during the Death Star meeting.
During ANH Vader seemed to maintain a special Emissary Status instead of a formal command status as he did in ESB.
Grand Moff Tarkin liked Lord Vader, understood he was Palpatine?s protégé, and didn?t mind him reeling in Motti?s arrogance.
Beyond that we see no evidence that Vader maintained authority over the Navy at all.
(Hijacking a pair of Tie Fighters with two loyal pilots does not count.)

Also, the Devastator was the first Imperator to arrive at Tatooine, and she was alone.

It is likely that Vader was given command of the Devastator to quickly track down the Tantive IV and Grand Moff Tarkin diverted the other two Destroyers to Tatooine for support.

Devastator was in Tatooine Orbit as the Falcon left the planet, however the other two destroyers were much farther away on an approach vector.
Perhaps they were just coming out of Hyperspace to aide the Devastator?
There were only ~12 Hours between Devastator?s arrival and the Falcon?s exit.

 

As for the size of the Imperial Navy, we have little information to go on.
Dark Empire established that Imperator vessels are indeed support ships for larger command ships. Vessels such as the Executor, Allegiance, Eclipse, Giel?s Command Ship, and the other command vessels easily outstrip an Imperator for size and firepower.

It is also important to note the importance Fleet Commanders placed upon Executor-class vessels in the post-Palpatine era.
Mon Calamari designs fielded against Imperators were beginning to quickly out perform the older Star Destroyers.
Imperators already found themselves outgunned by Heavy Cruisers like the Home One variants at Endor. Mon Remonda Cruisers basically outperformed the Imperator, as did the redesigned Republic Star Destroyer.

A few theories meant to rationalize Pellaeon?s statements in Specter have designated the 25,000 Destroyer number as the size of the Imperial Star Fleet.
When one realizes the authority held by Grand Moffs and Moffs, as well as the pension of Imperial leaders to establish personal fleets, it is quite conceivable the 24 ISD/Sector Fleet force was a goal meant to formalize Imperial Defenses in lieu of personalized fleets.

If we assumed that Palpatine commissioned a 25,000 strong Imperator force for the Imperial Star Fleet and was working on establishing formalized Sector Fleets throughout the Galaxy before he died, Pellaeon?s statement makes sense.

The Empire created a massive offensive Navy and was in the process of establishing a massive defensive Sector Force when Palpatine was killed.

Its a lot easier to think the Empire never fully realized its 24 ISD/Sector Fleet goal than to assume Warlord infighting somehow reduced a multi-million navy into a 200 ISD force in just a few short years.

 

IceHawk-181 posted on 4/27/05 8:55pm

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Its a lot easier to think the Empire never fully realized its 24 ISD/Sector Fleet goal than to assume Warlord infighting somehow reduced a multi-million navy into a 200 ISD force in just a few short years.
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Unfortunately, the ISB has already explicitly blocked out that path, by pointing out the numbers listed are at best averages, or even minimums, at the time just after Yavin. Available industrial capacity also support a larger number.

 

GrandAdmiralJello posted on 4/27/05 9:57pm

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I'm going to play my first multiplayer Warlords game. Wish me, and the Empire, luck. [face_happy]
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Cool, make us some screencaps.

 

You know. I often wondered how different the Yuuzhan Vong war would have been if the Alliance used Galaxy missles...

Any how, we never knew a full chronology of the battles between the Empire and Alliance. We also don't know how many ships were destroyed in the cataclysm at Byss.

I do think it's incredible for 1 million vessels to be destroyed in a span of few years unless the garbage bin was really that large.

 

The Alliance Navy must have been much larger than we were lead to believe up to this point. They would require literally hundreds of Home One type vessels and thousands of Cruisers to even be a threat to the Empire.

If, as the ISB states, the Empire did achieve its 24 Destroyer Sector Fleet average, then we are talking about over one hundred and fifty thousand Imperator Destroyers. Perhaps the Empire redefined Sectors, grouping them together into large governorships for the Moffs.

We still lack credible evidence as to the actual number of planets we are dealing with.

The best guess we have is the 1 Million Major World and 50 Million Minor world estimates I?ve seen on SD.net and SB.com.

If we are talking only 51 Million worlds, spread amongst 6,000 Senators, a sector would only be 167 Major Worlds and 8,334 Minor Worlds.
Even then, a mere 24 Destroyers to protect and defend 8501 worlds becomes rather dangerous; each Destroyer would be responsible for 355 planets.

When looking at that scale, perhaps a smaller Rebel Fleet of only a few hundred ships could seriously challenge the Empire by having the ability to prey upon any individual sector it chooses.

However, that means the Empire lost almost every single vessel it had during the Warlord Era. A couple thousand Sector Fleets do not simply disappear overnight.

Its amazing the Rebellion was able to last for more than five years with this much of an arsenal at Palpatine?s disposal.

 

Darth Guy

This plugin is great, my compliments.

Quest/Jello

The Devastator was the Emperor's ship, not Lord Tion's

I did a little googling, it did seem to indicate that the Devastator was used by Tion to put down the Ralltir uprising, but I personally don't recall it (the ship, not the uprising) from the radio drama. Unfortunately, no mention of what source placed her at Ralltir.

In any case, by the time Vader knew Leia had the plans, Tion was dead.

Regarding the "missing fleets", there's also the outside possibility of the EotH taking a page from El Clono's book and drawing many ships to their realm without the knowledge of the galaxy at large.

 

I used to think that standard operating procedure was one ISD per planet, and maybe double that for certain locations.

 

As for the Rebel Alliance versus the Imperial Starfleet, between Admiral Nick, Joruus, Pelranius, T McE, and myself (and most likely a few more people that I probably forgot to mention), we were able to put together how, exactly, the Imperials were still even considering continuing the war against the New Republic after the Anx Minor/Champala offensive ground to a halt against a meat grinder of NRDF ships...

Even with just eight sectors and a fleet centered around 200 or so ISDs (with wildly varying estimates of support combatants numbering as few as 2,000 and as high as 8,000, that I've seen--and there're most likely other estimates out there, too), it appears as though the average Imperial fighting man still thought that the Empire had a chance of winning. Part of this was the simple fact that the New Republic was a very unsteady government with early signs of splintering along ethnic lines, but another part was apparently that with a dozen ImpStars and their attendant support combatants, the Imperial Starfleet could still rally an offensive armada with around a hundred ImpStars at its core, and most likely thousands of smaller warships (which would very likely include a likely ratio of 2 VicStars per ISD, remember). This force--if Pellaeon had wanted--could park itself in any sector of the Republic and, in the short term, run completely amok. The main strategic fleets of the Republic would absolutely pale in comparison to such a force.

However, by taking territory, either (or alternatively, both) their strategic forces or the Sector Fleets back in Imperial space would have to be weakened for occupation uses, and in the long term, having to remain in one place or places (home territory and conquered worlds) would just be an invitation for the Republic to rally massive force and crush them.

Now, in the paradigm of the Alliance vs. the Palpatine-era Empire, the Alliance would have a very interesting advantage in that the only planet I can think of them defending was Mon Calamari, and that was most likely more to keep the Mon Cals feeling secure and therefore capable of converting vessels into capital ships than out of any genuine strategic belief that they could hold the world against a serious Imperial incursion.

So, with only the approximate number of ships in a Palpatine-era Sector Group, the Alliance could very realistically show up anywhere, smash a local Imperial task force (unless the aforementioned Sector Group were all in port or patrol at the same time and in the same place), and then leave before the Empire could rally superior firepower. I suspect that this was more or less what happened at Turkana. A ravenous pack of MC80s under Ackbar shows up, beats the piss out of a Star Destroyer task force, and then leaves before the rest of those ImpStars could show up, or whatever hypothetical moff or local Imperial VIP could whistle up an Allegiance or something along those lines.

As a result, what you've got is a situation in which the enemy can bring a reasonable amount of firepower to bear in any one location at any given time, and you've got no real way to retaliate--except by committing atrocities against population centers that you suspect may be collaborating with the Alliance. Which, paradoxically, kills off your own population, using your own resources, and generates sympathy for your enemy. In the end, you've absolutely got to lay a trap for the Alliance's strategic battlefleet, and that fell completely apart at Endor. I think with all that in mind, you can at least start to understand how it was that the Rebellion lasted against the Empire.

 

Sith Personnel Carrier
Sith Gunship
Sith Starfighter

Anyone have stats for those ships? I'm assuming they're from the Sadow war.

 

The strength of the Alliance main fleet seems capable of taking on a taskforce of 30 Imperators and an Execuotr and still get away relatively unscathed.

If Ackbar commanded multiple Heavy Cruisers it is more than likely that a single Calamari Strike Force could outgun all 24 Imperators.

That makes more sense overall, when we look at how well the Alliance fleet did at Endor.



I do not think we have any actual stats on Sith War era vessels, I'll check around...

 

By "Heavy Cruisers", do you mean Home One-sized Star Cruisers? Just to clarify, because otherwise, you're talking about Dreads and Vinnies, and I don't think those'd stand up too well against 24 Imperial-class Star Destroyers.

 

Brett_Bass posted on 4/28/05 9:10pm

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By "Heavy Cruisers", do you mean [i]Home One[/i]-sized Star Cruisers? Just to clarify, because otherwise, you're talking about [i]Dread[/i]s and [i]Vinnie[/i]s, and I don't think those'd stand up too well against 24 [i]Imperial[/i]-class Star Destroyers.
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She did mean those [i]Home Ones[/i]. While I think politics declared most of the Battle of Endor, I'd agree that if you assemble the entire Rebel Fleet (with its 3 [i]Home Ones[/i], at least 16 and more likely [b]dozens[/b] of MC80 level cruisers and many other support ships), beating up on one normal Sector Group shouldn't be a big problem.

 

Good to go, good to go.

Yeah. Anyway, if the Rebs managed to just keep the Star Cruiser pack that they had at Turkana up until Endor, they could've womped on more or less any given Imperial force thrown at them. The trick being that the Alliance fleet most likely wasn't all in one place very often (if ever). Even so, it's unlikely in the extreme that Sector Fleets/Groups were ever all in one spot either...

The Alliance would have the advantage of being able to always attack and almost never defend. Returning to some of my earlier commentary about the Empire still thinking it had a shadow of a chance at winning even when pared down to eight sectors/200 ISDs, even though the Imps could've temporarily enjoyed immediate numerical superiority, it seems Pellaeon was canny enough to realize that the Empire couldn't just attack. They had to defend the Imperial homeland, too. Hence the Bastion Accords.

 

This is interesting.

If I recall the X-wing Novels, the Alliance made an aggressive push about a year after Endor. That took place at Brental IV. The Alliance took the planet (without much resistance. Though technically, the Alliance did outgun the Imperials at the battle. 1 ISDII and some support ships vs Home One and some support ships is a no-brainer). Also, it was suggested in several places that the Alliance began to switch to take and hold.

Any how, it's entirely possible the Alliance made some small baby steps towards becoming a full-fledged government. Isard's interference probably aided their advance, and her weakening of Imperial Command probably fueled the confusion further, mucking up any attempt to counter the Rebels effectively.

However, once Isard was in control and there was a counter response, it might have been too little too late. By then, perhaps nearly half the fleet was alienated and defected to the Warlords by then (or seconded to the Deep Core by His Majesty) and the Warlords were so busy fighting among themselves for turf that the Republic was just busy gobbling up the weak links, which must be obviously several. The Essential Chronology also mentioned a few significant defeats. I remember that Isard somehow linked the disappearance with Black Sword Command with that of the debacle at some place (it must have been serious enough that Isard withdrew the bulk of the fleet to the Core).

Anyhow, it must have one hell of a meat grinder seriously.

 

Brett:

While Pellaeon's fleet of 200 Star Destroyers and few thousand support ships was a impressive force, it could never of defeated the New Republic. Its main advantage was that it was easier for them to concentrate a large group of warships easier than the New Republic could, whose fleet was scattered across the galaxy. In fact, I seem to remember the HoT books stating that he knew the Empire could not win either. IIRC, he joked that even if the New Republic would eventually fall that they would make sure to finish off the Imperial Remnant before they did.

Pellaeon's greatest acchievement was realizing that the Remnant had no chance of victory and that it was better to preserve the worlds and way of life that they still had. It is not easy for a military man to admit defeat. But, that is what makes Pellaeon one fo the greatest figures in galactic history. He was able to look ahead into the future and see the inevitable. He was wise enough to spare the galaxy one last bloody battle between the New Republic. It is for these reasons that I admire Pellaeon. Some people on these boards like to trash his character or call him weak, but I personally consider him one of the galaxies wisest statesmen.

IceHawk-181, Borleias

You guys summed up accurately why the Alliance fleet was able to last so long against the vast might of the Imperial Navy. The ability to strike where you please and choose your targets at will is a great asset. I would say that 90% plus of the engagements the Rebel Fleet fought before Endor were small scale ambushes. The Rebel Alliance Sourcebook from WEG implies as much. There is that case when the Oplovis sector fleet detached a group of three ISD's and support ships for some mission. Alliance Intel discovered this and had a group of three cruisers and smaller support ships waiting for the Imperial ships at their hyperspace exit point. As the Imp ships droped out of lightspeed, the guns of the Alliance cruisers picked them to pieces. I imagine that the battle was quick, allowing the Rebs to jumo out before the Empire managed to send some reinforcements.

Sure, the loss of three ISD's and their support ships seems miniscule, but if such attacks are carried out multiple times all over the galaxy, then you begin to see how the Rebels could slowly wittle down the overall strength of the Imperial fleet. Not to mention the morale of the fleet as well.

--Adm. Nick

 

The Rebels were also good at destroying ISDs by 'unconventional methods'.

Speaking of Pellaeon, even though I'm an Imperial diehard, I must admit it was a good thing that the EotH didn't show up during the events of the HoT duology. Otherwise the GCW would still have been raging at full blast when the Vong came barging in....

Well, the Empire relied a lot on the Tarkin Doctrine, so I don't really know how necessary a Star Destroyer fleet in the upper hundreds of thousands would be for keeping the galactic peace.

Speaking of the hundred thousand SD's (150,000 as a grand total seems a reasonable number to me, even if we have to rewrite some sourcebooks) disappear so fast, even with all that meat grinding conflict of the warlords (unless El Clone, Thrawn and Lumiya appropriated more ships for themselves then I though possible)

 

Pelranius:

Well, we still have no idea on how large the forces of the Empire of the Hand are. Until some author states clearly that the EotH still exists and is very powerful, I will reserve my opinion on its overall strength in regards to the NR, IR, and other powers.

--Adm. Nick

 

Pelranius posted on 4/29/05 8:53am

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The Rebels were also good at destroying ISDs by 'unconventional methods'.[/blockquote]

Yes, honestly, you can imagine my anger every time an author cops out this way.

[blockquote]Speaking of Pellaeon, even though I'm an Imperial diehard, I must admit it was a good thing that the EotH didn't show up during the events of the HoT duology. Otherwise the GCW would still have been raging at full blast when the Vong came barging in....[/blockquote]

There were IIRC a couple of years at least between HoT and the Vong - and they can always delay that silly Vong invasion.

[blockquote]Well, the Empire relied a lot on the Tarkin Doctrine, so I don't really know how necessary a Star Destroyer fleet in the upper hundreds of thousands would be for keeping the galactic peace.

Speaking of the hundred thousand SD's (150,000 as a grand total seems a reasonable number to me, even if we have to rewrite some sourcebooks) disappear so fast, even with all that meat grinding conflict of the warlords (unless El Clone, Thrawn and Lumiya appropriated more ships for themselves then I though possible)
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In fact, [b]very[/b] is the correct answer. Glancing quickly at their augmentation plans, the Empire wanted to have at least 64 Star Destroyers per sector, not counting personal squadrons. I suppose eventually, the Heavy Attack Lines and their VSDs or Dreadnaughts would be dumped and converted to Battle Squadrons. Overall, the number of lines would be increased sixteenfold. This will allow them to organize a bunch of hunting groups to stamp down the Rebels, or make each group survivable to a reasonable Rebel attack.

Threat of force (optimistically called "deterrent effect") is best done when you've got Force to back up your Threat.

 

We need not ?rewrite? anything, merely rationalize a simple quote by Pellaeon.

The Visual Dictionary tells us that there are some 1,024 Senatorial Pods in the Senate itself.
Revenge of the Sith indicates that a minority of 2,000 Senators and Representatives are being outvoted by a Palpatine loyal ?super-majority?.

Assuming a 60% Super Majority, Palpatine controls 3,000 of a total 5,000 Senators and Representatives.
Some basic quesitmation based on an average 5 Senators per Senatorial pod produces 5,120 Sectors.

The 24 Imperator Sector Fleet, based on an approximate total Sector Strength, gives the Empire 122,880 Destroyers deployed throughout the Galaxy.
Pellaeon?s statement about a 25,000 Imperator strong Star Fleet can be viewed as a separate entity.

Grand Moffs, Moffs, and Sector Governors, directly control the 122,880 Destroyers deployed in sector fleets.
The Imperial Star Fleet, which is commanded by Palpatine through the 12 Grand Admirals, controls the 25,000 Imperator Star Fleet.

Overall that would produce 147,880 Imperators.

The low-end theory could hold that Padme?s Delegation of 2,000 consists of only 409 Senators and another 1,591 system Representatives (like Binks).

Which would mean there are only 1,024 Sectors, requiring 24,576 Imperators in Sector Fleets.

If this were the case, Palpatine would only have 424 Imperators to pursue the Rebellion with.

Timothy Zahn is an EU minimalist and has established the lower end for his books. Pellaeon?s remarks of an Imperial Star Fleet of ?barely 200? Destroyers directly coincides with the 192 Imperators that should belong to the 8 remaining Sectors in the Empire.

The Empire of the Hand cannot field a massive capital ship force.
The Unknown Regions are rather small when compared to the rest of the galaxy, and supposedly the Chiss Empire and various unknown races control most of that area.
Thrawn?s miniature Empire would not be able to tip the balance of power in the galaxy without an act of divine intervention by some new author.