New Republic Capital Ships - still sorting out the mess... (Fleet Junkies- HO!)

Well, I know he destroyed the plants in the Omar system, but that was only one plant that we know of that had the capability of building T/As. Considering SFS has thousands of facilities throughout the galaxy, ala Bacta War, I don't see it being that hard for them to set up a few more T/A plants somewhere in the Core far from Zaarin. or alternatively, set up secret underground" facilities like the T/D one in Isard's Revenge.

 

Hi guys.
I've been a lurker for a veeeeery long time, and now I have decided to make my first post here. the reasons are the modifications made
to the Chimaera, regarding the torpedo tubes and huge guns.

I believe some of them are placed at the belly side.

Here is my argument:
The closest view we ever get of the aft belly side is AFAIK in the comic novelization of TLC, first page. There, the Chimaera has four huge,
twin barreled cannons (Turbolasers?) resting on some cubes sticking out of the hull. (two for each side)
Is this a modification or standard? In The NEGVV no guns of that sort are depicted.
Probably the guns are used to perform BDZs, or attack huge capital ships.

Like in HTTE, where four very, very strong blasts were able to obliterate the starboard side of an Assault Frigate. Maybe those guns or their opponents on the upper side of the Chimaera did this.
(The comic novelization provides a quite frightening picture) But those guns are
not shown in the Comic of HTTE - but then again the drawings are not that detailed.


But back to the argument. The Chimaera is drawn to have glowing yellish points on some parts of the belly, 4 on the aft cube pointing starboard, 4 on the front cube pointing starboard, two on the front cube pointing forward, as well as 7 points pointing starboard between the first and the second hangar, and 3 points pointing
portside.

I believe those yellow dots to be the torpedo tubes, because this gives
us a total of 20 tubes per starboard side and 20 portside. This would be also concurrent with the numbers used in Spector of the past.
A total of fourty tubes may be estimated. Sadly, the only views we get from the upper side of the Chimaera are half dark and
undetailled, so I can't verify if there are any tubes. Though it might be possible that the same number is stationed on the
upper side.

This would probably give the Chimaera the ability to engage flanking capital ships.


Just a theory.... What do you think? Maybe the Chimaera was upgraded since Thrawn probably wanted a Vessel stronger than the standard ISDII (would make sense, since the Rebs had the Lusankya). Also the mods might give another Edge against the newer MonCal Designs, or the Home One.


Edited for format reasons - twice. Sithspit.

 

Brett Bass:
When i was referring to the solar panels of the T/D, i was referring not to length but the inner "skeleton" lines, the grey spokes almost within the blackness of the panels of themselves. All images of the T/D feature this, in the game, manuals of the game, the first EGVV, and the Action Fleet toy itself, which I own (off ebay....don't ask how much). The NEGVV lacks these spokes, and the whole watering down of the T/D in the NEGV and Rebellion and as a result in Starfighters of Adumar I find this depiction of the TIE Defender to be wrong.
Also, in the first EGVV, there is no mention of the TIE Avenger being invented before the TIE Interceptor; it simply mentions both are derived from teh the original TIE Advanced. In the NEGVV it likewise does not say the TIE Avenger was designed before the TIE Interceptor, simply that the T/I replaced the T/A; personally I am disinclined to take this at face value. As for canon, only the movies can truly be considered as such; personally I find the game manuals and guide to be more reliable than stuff that is derived from the games, ie Decipher's TIE Avenger and Rebellion/Starfighters of Adumar's watered down TIE Defenders.
But keep in mind i'm clearly biasied to the Empire.

 

Welcome Thanas!!

We always enjoy having a lurker become a poster!!

Your thoughts on the Chimaera are plausible, but I will refer you too Brett. He is our Star Destroyer buff.

I am more of a Mon Cal cruiser man, so I will refrain from guessing whether the Chimaera is a standard ISDII or a specially modified one for Thrawn.

 

Awfully Drawn Vindicators...not likely, but perhaps a step up. Of course they were probably meant to be considered as ISD's...but hey, Seinar could have easily produce larger ships such as Vindicator (or larger) which could easily serve as TIE carriers. And this is why we need new sourcebooks.

 

We must be very careful when we interpet art from comics.

As we have discussed before, sometimes an artist uses a certain creativity when producing a image.

While we always use Dark Empire as a example, there are many other comics that fall in this category.

For instance, the RotJ Offical comic adaptation from the 1980's has pictures of craft that are supposed to be Mon Cal cruisers, but they look nothing like what we see in the movies. In fact, the artist of this comic decided to draw Mon Cal cruisers based not on what we see in the movies but on unused concept art from RotJ.

So, when the comic shows Home One, it looks nothing like the movie Home One. This is a perfect example.

My opinion of Crimson Jacks SD is that it was just an EXTREMELY poorly drawn ISD. Remember, when these comics were drawn, little attention was payed to being accurate to what we see in the movies.

 

ATTENTION

I stumbled across this quote while looking through my copy of CTD today. Read it see what you think.

CTD, pg. 64

"A New Republic fleet is comprised of battlegroups, each battlegroup sub-divided into task forces of about 20 ships. The Fifth Fleet is more consistantly organized than the others- five battlegroups, each with five taskforces."

OMG!! Do the math. If a task force has twenty ships, and five task forces are in a battle group, you get a total of 100 ships per battlegroup. Now, if a fleet has 5 battlegroups, that means that a fleet has 500 ships!! That is far larger than the 200 we previously thought. I am very suprised we never caught this before.

Now, if the NR has five strategic fleets, that brings the total strategic force of the NR up to 2,500 vessels!!

This is more than double the number of what we previously thought. So, if these numbers are true, the New Republic strategic forces are acutally pretty potent.

So, does anyone else find this interesting, or is it just me?

 

That makes MUCH more sense than 200 ships, IMO! Actually...we should decide which SD's from DE are actually different or just mis-drawn.

 

AdmiralNick: but how do you reconcile that with the '200' ships from Before the Storm... I know you like the idea of the NR having big fleets, but I really don't know that we can buy this on the evidence of CTD alone... then again, I guess I'm prejudiced towards giving the BFC precedence, inasmuch as the whole thing was K-Mac's idea, AFAIK...

Agh.

- The Imperial Ewok

 

What if the fleet was organized in reacton the the war with the Duskhan League? It is simple solution, but it could have some creduelity. The events of the war could have let Fleet Command realize they needed more reactionary vessels, so if sectors fleets are truly huge, than borrowing (5 fleets x 300 more ships) 1500 vessels might not be too much of a problem.

 

Hi, I have a question for the fleet junkies.

I was having a discussion with a friend of mine about SD production, and he stated that Imperial SDs were only made at Kuat, and they stopped when the NR took over (meaning that no new SDs were made afterward). Is this true, or were there other shipyards making them?

Also, what do you guys think of all the ships that appear on the new Dark Empire cover?

 

Shipyards were still producing SD's, becuase KDY had multiple shipyards, and they are likely built in the larget ammount around Yaga Minor.

 

Thanas

Welcome to our happy little thread, as well.

That's an interesting obeservasion about the Chimaera, but I think I've got a few things that'll make those weapon emplacements fit without needing any of these modifications. For one thing, the HTTE sourcebook lists the Chimaera as having 10 quad turbolaser batteries (and as an ISDII, but also with 40 double turbolaser batteries, an unspecified number of concussion missile launchers and no ion cannons), four of which I believe are the four you describe on her belly. I'm not so convinced that those are double barreled, but I do agree that they're weapons of some kind. My personal feeling is that she has four of them located on her underside, four more on her dorsal side, and two more on either side of her conning tower. With the types of gun batteries she has, she seems to be very geared towards ship-to-ship combat with very few anti-starfighter defenses. Her total number of guns is 120, same as any other ISD, but I'll agree that her configuration is different from most other ISDIIs. Seems to me that she was designed to be a kind of mini-command ship without the need for an Allegiance and her inherant lack of starfighters. Her appearance with the ISDIs Death's Head, Stormhawk, and Nemesis, and the ISDII Inexorable (the four other ships in Thrawn's primary battlegroup in TTT) on the gunnery practice range in X-wing Alliance seems to confirm it. Unfortunately, the three sourcebooks don't have much to say about the other four ships, but I suspect that the three ISDIs are of the 60/60 turbolaser/ion split, and the Inexorable is the more common 50/50/20 turbolaser cannon/battery/ion version.

But I'll agree, the Chimaera is a warship (I hesitate to use the term battlecrusier or battleship, though battlecruiser seems to fit her), not a patrol ship, which is what the ISDs were basically designed for to begin with. I'm less convinced of her torpedo tubes though, personally. I don't think Thrawn would have made those kinds of upgrades because he would have been able to win battles without them, and it would have required a pretty substantial drydock time to install them, which certainly didn't happen during the trilogy, and probably didn't happen in the 4 month gap between Tatooine Ghost and Heir to the Empire. However, I think the big guns (the quad turbolasers) are capable of turning a pretty good amount, making it quite possible to turn her broadside and open up with 5 quad turbolaser batteries and something like 15 doubles, or else turn forward, and angle all 10 quads and something like 30-35 double turbolasers that way.

Nick

"My opinion of Crimson Jacks SD is that it was just an EXTREMELY poorly drawn ISD. Remember, when these comics were drawn, little attention was payed to being accurate to what we see in the movies. "

The problem is, Nick, that that design was not unique to Crimson Jack's ship, numerous other Imperial ships had a nearly identical configuration. I'll agree that they were probably intended to be ISDs in the first place, but since they're obviously very different, we should treat them as such. They might be comparably armed, but they certainly lack the fighter/troop capacity of our beloved ISD.

jedi_master_ikrit

"I was having a discussion with a friend of mine about SD production, and he stated that Imperial SDs were only made at Kuat, and they stopped when the NR took over (meaning that no new SDs were made afterward). Is this true, or were there other shipyards making them?"

Well, we know for a fact that the Executor was cranked out at Fondor, even though she's quite plainly a KDY design (IIRC, her twin, the Lusankya was built simeltaneously at Kuat). I'm of the opinion that Fondor was cranking out all sorts of Imperial warships under contract until she fell out of Imperial control, and probably Corellia as well. I personally find it rather unlikely that a project of the Executor's scale would be granted to a shipyard without experience building her little sisters, the ISDs. Interesting

 

What of Bilbringi? It could have built ISDs.

 

Probably could have, but I don't think she did, at least not in any great numbers. I recall how remarkable it was supposed to be that one was nearly complete when the smugglers attacked it in the Last Command.

Though pre-Endor, I'm almost certain she did.

 

becuase KDY had multiple shipyards, and they are likely built in the larget ammount around Yaga Minor.

So, did KDY have multiple shipyards in the same system, or other shipyards outside the Kuat system?

Since you mention Yaga Minor, was the Imperial Remnant still building SDs?


And where were the Eclipse and Sovereign-class built? Byss, or somewhere else?

 

Ah yes, Byss. Yes, I do believe the IR is still building SD's, even SSD. As for Byss, many ships could easily have been built arround Byss, as that is where the KDY Eclipse team ran after Kuat fell.

 

"So, did KDY have multiple shipyards in the same system, or other shipyards outside the Kuat system? "

Personal opinion is that they had other yards not in the Kuat system, but that the vast majority of their work was done at Kuat.

"Since you mention Yaga Minor, was the Imperial Remnant still building SDs? "

Long answer short, we're not sure. Yaga Minor would be the likely location if they were, but I don't recall anything explicitly saying that they were.

"And where were the Eclipse and Sovereign-class built? Byss, or somewhere else? "

The original Eclipse was partially completed (with working engines) as of Kuat's capture, 4 years post Endor, and she was transported to Byss for completion. Less info is available about the Sovreigns, but I suspect that the Eclipse II was really a quickly refitted Sovreign keel, and that the other three were not completed, or if they were, didn't see service for long.

 

Joruus:

Ok. I'll buy that about the Crimson Jack. Perhaps is was some hybrid ISD.

As to what yards are still capable of building ISD's, both Yaga Minor and Bibringi can. In SbS, we see two ISD's under construction at Bilbringi. FH:Remnant, Yaga Minor is described as having a couple under construction as well.

 

Just a few points I'd like to make;
Although Kuat Drive yards is the primry manufacturer/designer (I'm assuming Lira Wessex works for KDY) of ISDs, that dosen't mean that they're the only one's who manufacture of it; that wouldn't be feasible, one shipyard, albeit a big one, supplying 24,000 ISDs in about twenty years or so, clearly they are manufactured at other yards (one example of this is Darksaber...horrible book by the way). The SSD is also a KDY design, yet the first ship was manufactured at Fondor and not Kuat; likewise, the first ISD, Imperator, was built at the yards at Gyndine. Think of it in terms of the AT-AT walker: although most of the components are from KDY, they're effectively manufactured at dozens if not hundreds of different planets such as Balmorra.
Oh, and in the the orginal Heir To The Empire sourcebook, the one I believe that C'boath is referring to, the ISD stats are in actualy fact the VSD stats. I think somebody made a big error there.

 

ThrawnMcEwok:

I agree that we have two sets of conflicting stats. The BFC books say that 200 warships are in a NR fleet. Now, CTD says that their are 500 in a fleet.

My question is, which set do we except? While I am inclined to believe the larger number, I am open to discussing it.

Either way, be it 200 or 500, we are still looking at a relatively small total for the NR strategic force.

 

Sorry about the Bothawui typo there. I meant Caamas, of course.
I would personally take the higher number as to the NR strategic force, but remember the Empire itself at its height had about 2,500 ISDs in its strategic fleet at most times.
In TLC, the Empire was also building ISDs at Ord Trasi (three, to be exact)

And of course, there's Jaemus.

 

Hello, regarding shipyards... What about Dathomir? SD's were being built there IIRC.

 

FTeik:

In other words you still haven´t done the calculations i asked you to do.

Fair 'nuff. I discounted your request out of hand when I asked a physics major what the consequences of a 200 gigaton reaction would be and the exact term he used was 'Biblcal'.

But hey, you know, boiling water is exactly what we were talking about.

Considering this, i could also ask you to do a study on, lets say, asteroid-impacts and their consequences for global live and you would ignore that, too.

So, the Yuccatan Penninsula wasn't created by a massive extraterrestrial impact event?

Hardly enough to incinerate the planet earth or to turn Yavin 4 to charred cinder or to be an omnie-powerful blast of biblical proportions..

Fair enough. I'll try not to use hyperbole in the future, as it is apparently something that is completely lost in this argument.

Next time I say, "it's like hitting a fly with a Buick," just a friendly reminder that I don't mean it literally, and do not require a convoluted mathematical equasion to prove how a Buick cannot fit inside my room.

Don't focus on the minutae, look for the thesis.

As you can see above "one or two" shots are hardly enough to boil the entire water of the middle-sea or the lake Michigan.

Contrary to me you only make misleading statements without backing them up.

Don't accuse me of being misleading when, by insinuation, you allege that the 200 gigaton figure is reasonable because it would take multiple shots to execute a Base Delta Zero by simply saying, "it makes sense, because the amount of firepower that it would take to destroy a planetary surface is greater than 200 gigatons, therefore that number is 'conservative' at best," which is essentially what you stated earlier.

Your argument seems to be ever-changing, and I don't seem to be able to keep up in this regard.
?

Which would equal 4*10^38 Joule (9.53*10^19 Gigatons or 95,238 Yotatons) to do what it did: Blow up Alderaan and spread the debris over an area of at least twice the planetary diameter in less than two seconds.

Oh, I see. I always mean everything that's stated in the strictest, most literal sense.

My argument was as follows:

Base Delta Zeros take multiple shots, not one giant one. The Death Star destroyed things with one giant shot. Therefore, what the Death Star did was not a Base Delta Zero.

My argument had absloutely nothing to do with the exact physical amount of energy required to blow up Alderaan.

First, why should the destructive effect of a beam-weapon be similar to a nuclear bomb exploding?

Last time I checked, releasing the equivilent amount of energy to 200 gigatons of TNT detonating results in a rather spectacular explosion.

Why should the Knight-Hammer fire with full power, if Daala wants to drop groundtroops (what again shows, that she is stupid)

Daala didn't land the troops, that was Pellaeon. She showed no compunction with raining fire down onto Yavin 4's surface (destroying at least one friendly target, and presumably many, many more that are not explicitly mentioned in Darksaber), and never ordered the Knight Hammer's gunnery crews to engage at decreased power levels. Also, the objective of firing on the moon's surface was to utterly destroy the Jedi temple--a hardened former military bunker made of solid stone and reinforced to withstand a bombing mission (Galactic Battlegrounds).

Same for the Chimaera and the Coral Vanda, they wanted to capture Captain Haffner.

That's why--as I recall--the Coral Vanda herself wasn't directly targeted.

As for Borleais, you know, that there were still NR-troops on the surface?

So, the 'kill-zone' wasn't there to protect said New Republic personnel?

No! As already said several times 5 I

 

Brett: well, I thought I agreed with FTeik... but there are some stimulating points in that 'un...

An M1A2 Abrams main battle tank was recently knocked out in Iraq when it was hit with an RPG-7 rocket-propelled grenade-launcher, which is, by all accounts, impossible.

Whuh?! Was that the one that was punched in the radiator on the way into Baghdad... or are those things less scarily invulnerable than we've been led to believe...?

- The Imperial Ewok