No sympathy for vader

okay okay okay.. I now Vader is guilty for killing them..i'm not saying he didn't, well of course he did. you saw the corpses, so did I...it's just that Vader was trying to save a loved one. He was trying to fulfill what he thought was his destiny. He thought he had a way to save her..but it was really him all along. that is the sad tradgedy of the Dark Lord Vader

*-*-*ROCK ON!!! *-*-*

 

He still knew what he was doing the whole time and knew he was guilty while he was killing.

And watch out For Texas in the National Championship. I Smell Roses
UT- future 2005 National Champions. Hook em' horns.

 

I know...he continued to do so cause he wanted to save a freakin lobed one!

*-*-*ROCK ON!*-*-*

 

No offense, but are you people deaf? GL said it himself that Vader was the victim. He is the creator of the story so therefore I take his words over yours. And another thing Vader isn't a real life person so I don't compare him to Timothy McVeigh, you're comparing a fictional character to a real mass murderer

 

Anakin/Vader is indeed a victim....his own victim because to quote Jim Carrey, he has a "serious impulse control problem", lack of control over his emotions, and he doesn't have the brains to realise that the man he believes can help him save Padme is the same guy that was trying to kill her throughout the entire PT. Everyone including Padme is constantly telling Anakin that Palpatine is NOT the "good man" he thinks he is but Anakin wouldn't listen and even as Palpatine himself revealed to Anakin that he's Darth Sidious, Anakin is still in denial. It took the news of Padme's death for Anakin to finally see the truth but he's too late by then because he let his greed and lust for power blind him from realising that he's making a mistake helping Sidious annihilate the Jedi and now that he's chopped to pieces by Obi-wan, left roasting on an open fire, and is now an amputated automaton in a respirator suit, Anakin is now forced to serve PalpSidious.

Part of me wants to feel sympathy for Anakin but my other part believes that Anakin brought this on himself.

 

GL is actually not very smart; when asked why Obi-Wan was taken out so easily, he said "Oh, that wasnt what I was trying to do; I was trying to make Anakin look powerful." He forgot about an essential character. C'mon, this is the guy who thought TPM was a masterpiece. His credibility went down the drain years ago. Besides, the "Because Lucas said so!" is another way of saying that you've lost the argument, that you yourself have no way of backing up your opinions.
Look at it this way: Lucas sees Vader as the victim. Lucas also sees himself as a great filmmaker. Both are wrong.

As for comparing Vader to Mcveigh, think about what I did; I compared the concepts of one mass murderer to another. Does it matter that one is fictional? No. I made the comparison, and you conveniently tried to dodge because it made you uncomfortable. The comparison came from a classic attitude among people today, an attitude which I like to call the "Don't blame me!" attitude. See, this results from people not wanting to take responsibility for their actions, so they try and blame society. Sure, society factors into it, but it does not force someone to pull a trigger, or set a bomb off. When they take the life of an innocent, they stop being the victim, and start playing the part of the villain.

Now, if you're going to start screaming and losing your temper, I suggest that you no longer look in this thread. If you can argue and post in a civilized manner, by all means, continue. I am having fun with this debate, and it is a pity to see that you are not.

 

what he said

 

Screaming and losing my temper? You must be talking to the wrong person, someone who exists in your imagination or something. GL not so smart? Let me see you try to come up with a story and make a billion dollar profit off of it, believe it or not that takes smarts and it's not as easy as it looks. You can call Vader the villain all you want but your opinion doesn't count when the creator himself said that Vader is the victim, Vader came from his imagination not yours, so stop trying to twist all around and make it your fantasy because it's not. As for taking GL words as my backup: it is verifiable enough and it's plenty of evidence to back up my opinion. We're not debating evolution vs. intelligent design. We're debating a fictional story. So the creator's ideas are my proof since he made the damn story.

 

Robal_Krahl is right, Lucas is not a great filmaker, just an alright one. If a great director came up with Star Wars, he'd tell you that in a sense Vader is a Victim of his own choices and a Villain because of what he did.

 

Screaming and losing my temper? You must be talking to the wrong person, someone who exists in your imagination or something

Like someone who yells "Are you people deaf?" or smacks an eye-rolling smiley at the end of their post? Yes, I made that person up


GL not so smart? Let me see you try to come up with a story and make a billion dollar profit off of it, believe it or not that takes smarts and it's not as easy as it looks.

Do you really think Lucas came up with Star Wars from scratch? Please. He borrowed from dozens and dozens of real-world philosophies. He borrowed terminology, ideas, etc. from all over, and mushed it together. You know how he turned his story into a billion-dollar empire? Marketing. He hired the right people. In terms of that, he's pretty smart; getting people to waste their money on the three same films over the course of 30 years is nothing to sneer at. But storywise, Lucas is a dud. This Prequel Trilogy proved that. He actually thinks that the special effects of a movie make up for the script; only a complete idiot thinks that. I've seen fanfilms and fanfics that put Lucas to shame, that rival the OT in terms of story. Why aren't these making billions of dollars? Simply put, no marketing. Not to mention the numerous legal issues.
As for me, myself, coming up with such a story, there's no chance. I'm not a writer; Im an artist. I work with images, not text.

You can call Vader the villain all you want but your opinion doesn't count when the creator himself said that Vader is the victim, Vader came from his imagination not yours, so stop trying to twist all around and make it your fantasy because it's not.

Lucas' imagination has taken so many twists and turns that what he says can no longer be held to be true. He's stated something, backpeddles and says another, then backpeddles yet again to say something completely different, and attempt to say that's how it was all along (alot like the "It's all about Vader" statement). This is why fans are left to speculate; Lucas is a flip-flop, and hs been so for so many years that fans are left to come to their own conclusions.

By the by, do you try to figure things out for yourself? Or is "because the boss said so" your philosophy in life? Quoting Lucas' opinion is fine and good, but it's worth nothing if you cant present and successfully argue your own.

We're debating a fictional story. So the creator's ideas are my proof since he made the damn story.

Seeing as we were discussing Vader in-story, bringing an out-of-story element indicates that you've lost. Yes, Vader is fictional, but that makes the debate itself no less real. If you resort to "I think this because someone else does," then you've lost the entire argument.

 

GL is actually not very smart; when asked why Obi-Wan was taken out so easily, he said "Oh, that wasnt what I was trying to do; I was trying to make Anakin look powerful." He forgot about an essential character.

Essential character??? Have you even watched the saga??? Anakin/Vader *is* the essential character!

George Lucas not being smart??? Og, please! I'd like to see any of you making a better SF that Star Wars.

 

All you "Vader is brainwahed" people just got quited and sent to timeout

 

Read carefully, my friend, otherwise you miss details. I said an essential character. Are you saying that Obi-Wan is not an essential character to the story? If ytou are, then it is obvious that you must watch the entire Saga again. This time, try and pay attention.

Anakin is the essential character of the PT, not the OT. Lucas invented that "It's all about Vader" thing when he started making the prequels. With the OT, you could spin it about to any perspective you want; Lucas originally stated that the entire story was being told from the memory banks of the droids. But now he's trying to say that it has always been about Vader.

As for any of us making a better Sci-Fi than Star Wars, it's entirely possible. Browse the fanfiction forum, and you'll run across some stories that surpass Lucas, and put him to shame. Browse the web, browse the local coffee shop that sits next to a college. You wouldn't believe how many great ideas never reach the public.
Now, in telling a story, I could give you countless names of people on TFN who could do a much better job than Lucas, regarding the Prequels. PM me, and I'll start sending you the list.

 

whoa!!!back off each other people!!! this is supposed to be friendly!!! kindly keep your sabers on your belts...and any oozing eyeballs, retract them now!!!

*-*-*ROCK ON!*-*-*

 

In my opinion if a person kills another person, not to mention, innocent children, then he is not a victim
but is a murderer. He wasn't even forced to do it, he was just enticed by a promise to keep Padme living and
for power. Being enticed and being forced are not the same thing. Being forced means you have no choice.
Being enticed means he was tempted and had a choice to give in to the temptation that Palpatine offered or not.
So he made a decision to kill innocent children for his own selfish reasons. Therefore, I have no sympathy for
him.

 

Off topic, but pushing Enter after each line makes the post harder to read. I find it very odd.

 

oookay..but Vader is still (somewhat) a good person!

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How is it harder to read when it's within the frame and you don't have to shift over to read the whole sentence?
Umm..I guess you have nothing more to defend Vader with.

 

I don't know about your resolution, but it looks like this to me:

This is a sentence. This is a
sentence.
This is a sentence. This is a
sentence.

I am unfamiliar with that kind of text.


Hah hah, I don't need to defend Darth Vader. I know he is a murderer and everything (like he is supposed to be), but the saddest parts of the Saga are when he is suffering or dying.

 

Very true; he had that spark of Anakin Skywalker in him, which allowed him to become a good man once again.

 

I don't have to watch the saga again to be sure of this, thanks. Star Wars is about Skywalkers. Essential characters in the Original Trilogy are Luke and Vader. Obi-wan is one of the important ones, but he is not essential.

Well, it is Lucas' story, so don't think that you know better that he does.

Yeah? I don't see that they made a success with it like Lucas did.

I don't get this people. It is Lucas' story, not yours. he made it like this, so why complain all the time?!?

 

I feel like I've stumbled across a gigantic battle.

My dad and I were discussing this last night when we watched ROTS, and he pointed out something to me. When Vader takes his first steps after becoming the Man Behind the Mask, and Palpatine tells him that he killed Padme, take a good look at Palpatine. He is actually -grinning- with satisfaction over seeing Vader suffer! The way my dad put it was, "He knew which buttons to push."

I personally have pity for Vader. In a way, he was brainwashed by Palpatine. I mean, wouldn't you be too if you kept having nightmares, and then here comes this guy who says that there's a way to save your wife? It's a very sticky situation. Obi-Wan said it himself: "He was deceived by a lie, we all were." That comes across to me as "The Chancellor did such a good job of brainwashing him, Anakin didn't even realize it!"

Let me post my opinion on the Youngling slaughter. Anakin was eating up Palpatine's "do this and save your wife" lies, and the mission to kill the Younglings was another. Take a look at his face when the child says "Master Skywalker, there are too many of them. What are we going to do?" It seems as though Anakin's almost thinking about not going through with his orders. Fathers-to-be don't usually go around killing innocent children, and I think he knew that. This helpless kid was looking up to him for advice and protection, and I think for a brief moment Anakin felt like he should be protecting these kids.

I do have sympathy and pity for him in the immolation scene. I know he did the whole Dark Side switcheroo to save Padme, and it backfired. I pity him when he's burning because no one deserves that, not even the second-worst threat in the whole universe. It breaks my heart to see anyone suffering, even if it is Darth Vader.

The one person I would take pleasure in seeing burn is Palpatine. I don't think he ever knew how to cheat death (I noticed this when he said "...but if we work together, I know that we can discover the secret"). He -lied- to Anakin to get him on his side, and it was all in his masterplan. Anakin could have said "Uh, no thanks, dude" and walked away, but he was so eaten up with concern for his wife that he just fell for it. Palpatine's evil masterplan was to somehow turn Anakin to the Dark Side and torment him with those nightmares, and he knew eventually that he'd kill Padme and would be troubled with that forever.

Yes, I have sympathy for Vader/Anakin. And I do believe he was brainwashed. Well, at least he was deceived by a lie.

 

That's right, Palpatine is the real villain in SW, not Darth Vader. Palpatine is the prime example of what evil is: manipulative, con artist, and without emotion. Anakin is neither of these things.

 

I don't have to watch the saga again to be sure of this, thanks. Star Wars is about Skywalkers. Essential characters in the Original Trilogy are Luke and Vader. Obi-wan is one of the important ones, but he is not essential

The man who trained Anakin Skywalker, and later Luke Skywalker, is not essential to the story? The man who caused Vader to wear the black armor that he is so famous for is not essential to the story? The man who is in every single Star Wars movie is not essential? I advise you to rethink your claim


Well, it is Lucas' story, so don't think that you know better that he does

In other words, "I can't counter that point so I'm going to pointlessly roll my eyes because the truth is that Lucas has no idea what he's doing."


Yeah? I don't see that they made a success with it like Lucas did.

Have you ever heard the phrase "it takes money to make money?" Lucas had how much money to create the OT with? over 100 grand? College students don't have that kind of money.
Also, where do you think people like JRR Tolkein or Rowling come from? They don't just pop out of the blue. They come from colleges, education, and the like. They are normal people who have been successful. Tell me, what do you think Rowling was doing before she wrote her Harry Potter series? What about Stan Lee? Bob Kane? All ordinary people. Do you honestly think that the next big author isn't out there right now? All they need is the right scout to see them; it's 50% talent, and 50% of who you know. Anyone who knows anything about how Hollywood and "The Biz" work would realize that.


Now, Palpatine was a real villain, I agree. He was able to manipulate people into performing horrendous deeds... but do you think he could have manipulated Obi-Wan into killing children? Not a chance. To manipulate someone, they have to have the rage. Anakin had that rage, and he gave into it. No one cane make you do anything without your consent.

 

right ya kno^

*-*-*ROCK ON!*-*-*